Subject: It was still rubbish. (nm)
Author:
Posted on: 2015-02-09 00:22:00 UTC
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More questions about elves. by
on 2015-02-07 06:31:00 UTC
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Sorry to annoy everyone with my questions about elves from Middle-Earth, but I truly don't want any major Canon Breaks in the fic that I'm writing. Now I have some questions about their capabilities, that have been bugging me out for a while.
1.- What are the limits of their physical capabilities?
2.- How do their spiritual/magical/mental/supernatural abilities work?
3.- Could the transformations shown by Galadriel & Thranduil in the Movieverse be related to those above mentioned abilities?
4.- Could any elf, from any kind, be able to use everything mentioned above? If not; which kind can use which abilities and which are unique to Ringbearers?
I think those questions cover all my concerns for the time being. Plausible hypothesis are accepted for answers, when canon ones are unavailable. And sorry again for being such pain with my hard questions. XD -
Not hard - just long-winded. ^_~ by
on 2015-02-07 22:12:00 UTC
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1/ As far as physical strength and endurance goes, the upper limit is probably Fingolfin's battle with Morgoth:
But at the last the King grew weary, and Morgoth bore down his shield upon him. Thrice he was crushed to his knees, and thrice arose again and bore up his broken shield and stricken helm. But the earth was all rent and pitted about him, and he stumbled and fell backward before the feet of Morgoth; and Morgoth set his left foot upon his neck, and the weight of it was like a fallen hill. Yet with his last and desperate stroke Fingolfic hewed the foot with Ringil, and the blood gushed forth black and smoking and filled the pits [left by] Grond. ('The Silmarillion', Chapter 18)
Morgoth, at this point, is huge - he's described as a like a tower, or a stormcloud. But Fingolfin not only survived - and got back up from - three blows from this giant - he also survived having Morgoth step on his neck long enough to cut his foot, and deeply. So that speaks well for both strength and endurance.
Switching to the Third Age, we find Legolas wanting to keep running in Rohan after a full day, when Gimli is exhausted (and ignore what the movies say: dwarves are quite clearly built for endurance). He was also the only one not borne down by the troubles on Caradhras - though that might have been more to do with being able to run on top of the snow.
Switching to another famous elven ability - sight - there's a lovely article which goes into detail on that. Suffice to say that Legolas would be able to notice within under ten minutes the motion of Mars against the starfield - a human would have to wait ten hours.
2/ "... this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy. But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel." (LotR II, Chapter 7)
I'm glad you're not asking about all magic in Arda - that one's a really tricky subject. But as to the elves, there are... maybe five kinds of 'magic':
a) The Light of Valinor, as seen on Glorfindel in Fellowship. This is a byproduct of having lived under the light of the Trees, and is basically an 'inner light'; in the Unseen realm, it manifests as an almost blinding glow, and is at minimum terrifying to Nazgul. Obviously, it's only present if you, uh, lived in Valinor before the Trees were murdered.
b) Foresight and Insight, or to give them their proper names, apacen and tercen. These are pretty much what the sound like - apacen is the kind of future vision Galadriel obtained through her Mirror, and tercen is her... semi mind-reading. She may or may not possess actual telepathy as well, I don't think that's made clear.
c) Craft. Elven-work is, um, better. ^^ Ringil, the sword of Fingolfin, wounded Morgoth eight times, while a Numenorean blade dissolved after stabbing the Lord of the Nazgul just once. Furthermore, elven-craft can enhance the properties of objects above what is natural:
"Are these magic cloaks?" asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
"I do not know what you mean by that," answered the leader of the Elves. "They are fair garments, and the web is good, for it was made in this land. They are elvish robes, certainly, if that is what you mean. Leaf and branch, water and stone: they have the hue and beauty of all these things under the twilight of Lorien that we love; for we put the thought of all that we love into all that we make..." (LotR II, Chapter 8)
A few pages on, we come across Galadriel's gifts: at a minimum, the Phial of Galadriel is enhanced, and quite possibly the earth in Sam's box as well. The boats, the ropes - even the lembas of the Galadhrim is 'magically' enhanced.
But this enhancement isn't 'add any attribute you like'; it seems to only make things more themselves. The cloaks, woven light and camoflaged, become extra light and super-camo. As to how this was done...
d) Song. Don't knock singing - it's the very method of the creation of Arda. And it's most definitely a tool of elvish magic:
And Luthien now was left alone.
A magic song to Men unknown
she sang...
... and all names of things
tallest and longest on earth she sings:
the locks of the Longbeard dwarves; the tail
of Draugluin the werewolf pale;
the body of Glaurung the great snake;
the vast upsoaring peaks that quake
above the fires in Angband's gloom...
Song is the medium by which Luthien enhances her craft - in this case, she's imbuing her own hair with the properties it already possesses: length, and darkness. When she's done, she has enough to weave a cloak and rope, and darkness/night enough to bring down sleep on anyone she chooses - up to and including Morgoth.
And music isn't just used in craft (or by half-Ainur): the most famous passage from the Lay of Leithian runs, in part, as follows:
He [Sauron] chanted a song of wizardry,
Of piercing, opening, of treachery,
Revealing, uncovering, betraying.
Then sudden Felagund there swaying
Sang in answer a song of staying,
Resisting, battling against power,
Of secrets kept, strength like a tower...
Here, both Sauron and Finrod (Felagund) are trying to enchant not an object, but a person - Finrod himself. Sauron uses 'the deceits of the Enemy' - Finrod, in contrast, tries to enhance his own nature. He fills his song with resistance, with 'trust unbroken', and with 'all the magic and might... of Elvenesse'.
Ultimately, he fails, because Sauron turns his own song against him: he twists Finrod's memories of 'the sighing of the Sea beyond/Beyond the western world, on sand/On sand of pearls in Elvenland' with the reality of the murder of the Trees, and of Feanor's kinslaying.
The wolf howls. The ravens flee.
The ice mutters in the mouths of the Sea.
The captives sad in Angband mourn.
Thunder rumbles, the fires burn--
And Finrod fell before the throne.
But still - I'd love to see a story about elven battle-song. ^^
(All of which suggests a new spin on Galadriel's 'Namarie', which ends with her singing: 'May it be that thou [Frodo] shalt find Valimar!' Poetry, a hope, a wish - or an enchantment and a spell? You decide.
e) Illusion. This one shows up mostly among people who knew Melian. She, of course, spun a web of illusion and magic around Doriath, to keep unfriendly creatures out. Later, Finrod used similar illusion - 'by the arts of Felagund their own forms and faces were changed into the likeness of Orcs'. And waaaaay down in history, Thranduil (whose father was a member of Melian's court) apparently uses something related to spirit his feasts away from Thorin's company.
But all of these sort of fall under 'craft'. Finrod had to outfit his party with Orcish gear and weapons, which he could draw on the essence of; Melian used the already-tangled woods of Doriath; Thranduil had Mirkwood to draw on. The idea that an elf could, say, create an illusion of an elephant, is unsupported by the Legendarium.
f) [Okay, I lied, there's six] The Rings. I've discussed this on Netilardo. The evidence suggests that the Three Rings were created to sustain the world, which is what Galadriel uses Nenya for. (We can ignore Gandalf's apparent use of Narya - he's a Maia, there's different interactions there). And apart from communicating with the wearer of the One Ring, that's all they're for: freezing time in place, so that the world of the Eldar doesn't pass away.
3/ Galadriel, Thranduil... yipes. Well. Galadriel is a warrior, so she could be enhancing her 'scary' aspect... nah, sorry, I think the best explanation for that is 'PJ doesn't know what starlight looks like'. The book describes starlight in the scene by the Mirror, and her 'Storm Queen' scene in B5A would also make more sense with starlight (known for its evil-banishing properties). Actually, I'd swear I saw her holding the Phial in that scene - I wonder if the Dark/Evil/Scary thing was added in post-production.
Thranduil is much easier: movie!Thranduil was supposedly scarred by a dragon, but we've already established he could have access to 'enhancing' illusions. The illusion of your own face being undamaged must be quite simple.
4/ I think most of this has been answered above. There's no fundamental differences between the tribes of the Quendi - the only determining factors are: whether they saw the Trees in their glory, whether they knew Melian, and whether they have a Ring. Galadriel, of course, fulfils all three - and she and Celebrimbor are the only people in history to have done so (and 'Brim may never have met Melian).
This has been your overly-long answer to a Tolkien trivia question of the week. ^_^ Well, you asked!
hS -
Wait, hold on. by
on 2015-02-11 01:39:00 UTC
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"a) The Light of Valinor, as seen on Glorfindel in Fellowship. This is a byproduct of having lived under the light of the Trees, and is basically an 'inner light'; in the Unseen realm, it manifests as an almost blinding glow, and is at minimum terrifying to Nazgul. Obviously, it's only present if you, uh, lived in Valinor before the Trees were murdered."
So, er. Does this mean that my Calaquendi agents could scare Nazgul if they were ever in a position to do so?
Also, yes, singing. I suppose they should do some at some point...
~DF -
I think so. by
on 2015-02-11 07:47:00 UTC
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Frodo perceived Glorfindel as a great light, and my reading has always been that this a) was because he lived under Treeslight, and b) is what drove the Black Riders into the river, even though they were terrified of water.
To be honest, the Nazgul aren't that hard to scare off. Fire, running water, Caliquendi - you can pretty much send them running at a moment's notice. The trouble comes in three ways:
1/ Unlike wild animals, they don't just blindly run in fear. Sure, the Witch-King will back away from a torch - but when you turn to do the same to Khamul, you get a Morgul blade in the back.
2/ It only works if you can reach them. ^_^ Their winged steeds carry them nicely over water, and keep them out of range of fire, too - and the distance doesn't do anything to stop the effects of their cries.
3/ The Nazgul aren't front-line troops anyway - they're spies, assassins, and saboteurs. Think of Merry in Bree - he didn't know what hit him, but the Black Breath still knocked him right out. When we see the Ringwraiths, it's in exceptional circumstances, with everything on the line; their normal MO is closer to that tense, subtle pursuit of Frodo across the Shire.
Add in the fact that, while running water is a universal barrier (particularly for Khamul, as I recall), fire is apparently more of a panic reaction - certainly the Witch-King had no problems navigating the fire-filled trenches of the Pelennor, and actually held a magically-flaming sword when he encountered Gandalf - and you're left with a bunch of short-term solutions for a very long-term problem.
But for startling them long enough to get away, a Valinorian Elda revealing her innate power would probably work, yes.
(Which leaves me to wonder - what exactly were they scared of?)
hS -
Paging hS! by
on 2015-02-08 00:32:00 UTC
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Yes, I know, I'm hijacking the thread.
-Puts a balaclava on-
That's a hijack! Everybody put their hands up in the air!
Anyway.
Whatever happened to Ispace Wars? You stopped updating a few months ago, and I'm generally curious. -
And I thought that Tauriel's fight with Bolg was rubbish... by
on 2015-02-08 00:22:00 UTC
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Really! All the time I was thinking that she should had be severly injured after all the clobberin' that she received and I was utterly flabbergasted when at the end she was still able to stand and apparently unharmed; now I think that if something, she was heavily nerfed.
Also, I think that the info just killed the climax of my fic, those elves are just too hard to injure, and the climax hinged on the OC receiving enough severe injuries to keep the OC out of comission for months, something that is no longer feasible due to the way the story was structured. On the other hand, that gives me more leeway to punish the OC with slapstick comedy. BWAHAHAHAHAHA
Ahem, well going back to the supernatural abilities, seems like my OC will have a rather limited "elven magic" ability, because well, a) Is a warrior, b) The OC's ancestry haven't been purely Noldor in 4600 years and is mostly Silvan, and c) Was born in the 2900 of the Third Age. So, no fancy magic stuff for the OC, except, perhaps; a little singing. (Don't expect much, I'm a terrible lyricist)
Ok, I lied a little, there's another thing. A Lesser Power Ring. Pretty much the power of that ring can be summed up as: "Slows the perception of the flow of time, as long as the bearer, conciously or unconciously; desires to do so and keeps focused on that desire." That means that the ring is quite unreliable, and I think its capabilites fit within the range being just a "practice of the craft". Or what do you think?
(Also, yes, the ring is out when the One is destroyed.) -
It was still rubbish. (nm) by
on 2015-02-09 00:22:00 UTC
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I do still think the fight's ending is rubbish. by
on 2015-02-09 15:33:00 UTC
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Tauriel's dead would have been a much better way to end it, for dramatic purposes; despite the "starcrossed-lovers-dying-together" cliché; compared to the "Twu Wuv" sappy one that we got. Also it would have pleased a lot of angry fans.
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Agreed. by
on 2015-02-09 17:05:00 UTC
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It would've been so much better if she'd gone down avenging Kili rather than having Legolas rescue her. She was supposed to be an orc-killing machine, dang nabbit, not some damsel in distress. Plus, there was that bit where Thranduil asked if she was prepared to die for her love, and she said yes—and then totally ruined everything by not following through.
I was very disappointed, and I don't even dislike Tauriel.
~Neshomeh -
Commentary. by
on 2015-02-08 08:23:00 UTC
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Yes, she should probably have been seriously injured. But you can fight on after being even fatally wounded - just, y'know, not for very long.
W/r/t your abc:
a) Eldar aren't 'just' warriors. They live for thousands of years, you don't specialise that extremely. Everyone, at minimum, is an artist. And there's no indication that 'magic' is particularly difficult - look again at how blase the elves are about the Lorien cloaks.
b) There's no fundamental difference between the Noldor and the Lindar (ie, 'the third tribe, using their own name). They probably had less tercen and apacen, because of no Treeslight, but other than that...
c) Um. 2900 might be a bit late. The Eldar are noted to not tend to have children in times of war - and the Necromancer appeared in Dol Guldur in 2460, with the note that 'the Watchful Peace ends'. That's about as late as any Third Age elves should be born.
(Also: singing doesn't require you to write the song)
The Lesser Ring: this is one of the rings described by Gandalf as mere essays in the craft. We know they could turn you invisible; we also know they couldn't extend your life like the One did to Bilbo, because that's what worried Gandalf to begin with. It's... yeah, it's plausible, since we know so little about how the Rings operated in the first place. It'll probably still have a corrupting effect, since Sauron got his grubby little mitts on it.
hS -
Thank you very much!!! by
on 2015-02-08 10:37:00 UTC
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Your help has been invaluable. These answers provide me with more narrative options!!
Also, I'm completely aware of the implications of the birthdate, do know that the Eldar did not tend to have children in times of war, but nowhere it is said that it never happened. ^_~ -
Well... by
on 2015-02-08 00:50:00 UTC
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Just because Fingolfin could take a beating like that doesn't mean just anyone can. Fingolfin was a very powerful lord of the Noldor who had seen the Light of the Trees. Also, bear in mind that The Silmarillion is, from an in-universe standpoint, a translation of the Elvish legends of the First Age. The tale may have been embellished for poetic or dramatic purposes—for example, he's crushed down three times, not one, two, or four. It could be accurate, or it could be that Morgoth crushed him like a bug the first time, he lashed out with his dying breath, and managed to land a lucky hit. The latter version doesn't sound as good in epic tale. {= )
~Neshomeh -
Yeah, that. by
on 2015-02-08 07:05:00 UTC
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There's also the fact that, uh, Fingolfin died. There's a difference between 'can fight on' and 'can actually live afterwards'.
hS -
Due to a lack of answer... by
on 2015-02-08 07:33:00 UTC
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...I think I can safely assume that the Lesser Power Ring mentioned before is feasible, right?
And well, dying doesn't make Fingolfin's feat less impressive though, there are few non-cosmic beings in the entire multiverse that could withstand that. -
So, you reckon... by
on 2015-02-08 07:23:00 UTC
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Assuming there were three hits (because there's no reason not to other than being contrary), the first hit ensured his death, the next two just made sure he died sooner?
Or, er, what? I did remember that he died, so I'm confused.
~Neshomeh -
I was agreeing with you. ^_^ by
on 2015-02-08 08:13:00 UTC
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In addition to your point that Fingolfin was a Lord of the Noldor, and Tauriel is an orphan Silvan, I was throwing in that he didn't survive the battle - still less uninjured.
hS -
Ahh, such a rare occurance! ^_~ by
on 2015-02-08 18:38:00 UTC
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I kid. It could've been read either way, though. You're too good at that Elven "both yes and no" thing. *g*
While we're talking Elves, I've been making a little progress in fact-checking the names and language in a fic WM and I are sporking, and I'd like to run what I've got by you, see if I'm on the right track. So far, I've got a few names and a phrase:
1. Lle naa vanima, "you are beautiful" - This is Grelvish, isn't it? It seems to be Quenya-derived, but would the correct Quenya phrase be nalye vanima?
2. Ohtarie - This is a name given to a female Elf in Lothlórien. Ohtar seems to be a legitimate Quenya word meaning "warrior," but just slapping -ie on the end doesn't seem to make it a feminine name, but rather an adjective that would mean something like "warriorness." Ohtarien might work... if it weren't a bit silly for a Lórien Elf to have a Quenya name.
3. Heridil - Another Quenya name stuck on a Lórien Elf. This one apparently means "Lady-friend." *snicker*
4. There's a dragon with the unfortunate name of Smut. I want to save him from a needlessly gruesome and insulting death and send him home to the First Age, and I've attempted to devise a Quenya name for him: Soace, "Little Filth." Does that work? Sindarin might be better, but Sindarin is hard. {= P
~Neshomeh -
Ooh, Elvish! by
on 2015-02-09 09:35:00 UTC
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1/ Yup, that's Grelvish. The clue is the horrifying double letters. (I think they put them in to avoid using accents - 'namárië' becomes 'namaarie' - but it's still horrifying)
2/ -ie has three meanings: an infinitive/gerund, an abstract from an adjective (so yes, 'warriorness' if you accept 'warrior' as an adjective), and in certain outdated forms, 'is' (ie, 'is a warrior'). But the last is indeed outdated. Ohtarien ('warrioress') or Ohtariel ('warrior's daughter') would work just fine; my fine-tuned Eldarin ear says you're probably right to go with -n. But no, no way should it be Quenya; the Sindarin would be Maethoriel for 'daughter'... and given the evidence of 'Luthien', I guess Maethorien would be allowable too, and again, probably preferred.
3/ Actually, 'Herindil' would indeed mean 'lady's friend', but it's not a terribly nice-sounding word. It's normally masculine; the feminine would be 'Herindilme', which... still sounds horrible. The 'lady' in there is the feminine of 'lord', rather than 'woman' (which would give 'Nindil'... honestly, I don't like the clashing 'i' sounds in all of these). I'm... well, you could alter the original to 'Herindur' to make a decent masculine name - albeit one that still means 'friend of a noble lady' (perhaps it's Varda?). In Sindarin it would be 'Heryn' or 'Hiril' for 'lady', and... uh... well, I can't find a 'friend' suffix, but you could be more honest by affixing '-dir' (Heryndir, Hirildir) to mean 'watcher'. Stalker name!
4/ It looks like the diminutive ending is indeed -ice, so 'Soace' would work... except that it looks unpronouncable. I've got a few Sindarin options for you, though:
Gwaurbîn - 'Little Soiled One'
Lhîwbîn - 'Little Sickness'
Lhîwdithen - 'Little Sickness'
Pîndhelos - 'Little Loathing'
Angosbîn - 'Little Horror'
Tithengorth - 'Little Horror'/'Little Corpse' (ah, homophones)
Pîngorth - as above
Gorgorbîn - 'Tiny, Extreme Horror'
Some of those are incredibly fun to say. ^_^
If you don't like any of them, I can try to derive a better-sounding Quenya version, or look for more Sindarin words in the same general theme.
hS -
Thank you! by
on 2015-02-09 17:46:00 UTC
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- So, nalye vanima Y/N? It may not matter, but I'm curious.
2. Cool. We were also considering renaming her something with the sense of "beautiful water," since we were giggling over the name sounding a bit like "Ontario" and that's apparently one possible translation. I got as far as Bain + nen, but I have no idea how to make that sound decent, or if it would need mutation or something. (I'm having trouble wrapping my head around that stuff.)
3. Heridil is a guy, forgot to mention. The noble lady in question is the fic's Sue, naturally. Heridil teaches her archery.
4. So-AH-ke, right? I kinda like that it's a little sleazy-sounding. {= ) I'll think about a Sindarin option, though.
Oh, a couple other things that come up a lot:
5. Baraer and Baraermin, "Fiery One" and "My Fiery One" - Nicknames Haldir gives the Sue. Bara is apparently a Sindarin word meaning fire, but I don't like the sound of either one of these constructions. I'm just having trouble pinning down the exact grammatical (il)logic. There's no evidence I can find of an -er suffix with this (or any) function. Maybe it's based on the Grelvish lirimaer, which also gets used of the Sue a fair bit.
Even allowing baraer, though, shouldn't the latter be baraer nin, a la mellon nin? Or have the movies gotten the wrong sounds in my head?
6. Tithen aras, "Little dear" - Wise and noble Elves occasionally refer to the Sue this way. But, aras apparently means "deer," like the critter what we hunt for venison? *snicker*
~Neshomeh
- So, nalye vanima Y/N? It may not matter, but I'm curious.
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More answers. by
on 2015-02-10 09:48:00 UTC
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1/ Nalye vanima looks like Quenya for 'you are beautiful' to me. Is that what it's supposed to mean? I see that it is!
2/ I'd probably reverse the order, and come up with Nenvain. That keeps the emphasis on the first syllable, where it belongs, and looks better than Bainen, which feels like half a word. And... well, it sounds like a name - NEN-vine. You can imagine an irate parent yelling it: "Nenvain! NENvain! Come and tidy your talan this instant!"
4/ So-AH-ke is right, and... yeah, actually I like that, now I say it. It's got that lovely clicky pause before the last syllable. It also reminds me of Foalócë, one of the Quenya words for 'dragon'. I take back what I said about Sindarin - keep that version.
5/ I'm pretty sure turning a vowel into a dipthong is frowned on, yeah. '-er' appears to be based on Sindarin 'êr', the number one, which shows up in prefixes as Er-, 'lone'. For that matter, I can't find any trace of 'bara' in Ardalambion Sindarin, though it's closely related to baran, 'yellow-brown'. It could also be a mutated version of paran, 'smooth'. So yeah, I wouldn't allow either of those. 'My' should indeed be 'nín', though it could also appear as a suffix '-en'. This is Grelvish all the way.
6/ Ahahahahaha. Yep, you're right. Actually there is a Sindarin word glossed as 'dear' - mail (or mell or muin) - but my guess is that it's 'Dear so-and-so', and taken from Tolkien's letters.
Basically: it's all Grelvish, and it makes my elvish heart cry. If you need a Grelvish expert to call up or bring in for a consult, I'll note here that Agent Huinesoron is fluent in it. One assumes SIELU also have specialists - but on the other hand, I'm not sure any right-minded SIELU agent would want to learn it...
hS -
I'll keep Agent hS in mind. by
on 2015-02-11 16:28:00 UTC
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We've got Ithalond on the team, so theoretically he should be able to point out bad Elvish... assuming he can keep it together long enough to say anything sensible. Uh. Yeah. Huinesoron might just get a call from Diocletian or Derik. {= ) We're already planning to ring Nurse Jenni to weigh in on some really bad genetics (she being the first medical-ish person they would think of), so it would fit the course of the mission so far.
If you want to see what else might come up, here's the index of the badfic. The author helpfully lists translations at the end of the chapter when relevant, so you don't actually have to read the thing.
1. Yay, I was right! ^_^
2. Thanks! Dunno if we'll go with that or the "Warrioress" translation, but thanks either way.
4. Would it help to write it with a diaresis on the a: Soäce? Or some other diacritical(s)?
5. IIRC, I found bara in Hiswelókë's Sindarin dictionary. (It's down for maintenance as I type, but hopefully it'll be back soon.) Maybe it's normalized from an older word form?
~Neshomeh -
Oh, yeah, there it is. by
on 2015-02-11 17:04:00 UTC
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Bara is listed as 'fiery', and glossed as literally meaning 'eager'. So that, at least, is valid.
A diaresis in Soäce makes a world of difference, yeah. Nice thought, 10/10, would agree with again.
hS -
Hey, hS, since you're doing Grelvish checks... by
on 2015-02-11 00:38:00 UTC
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Firemagic had found a bad Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha x Lord of the Rings crossover, and I suspect that most if not all of the "Sindarin" it uses is Grelvish. Quoth the badfic:
"Translation:
Ionnath: my sons
Meleth nin: my love
Mellon nin: my friend
Orelon: morning star male
Ellith: female elf
Ellon: male elf
Melda: Dear/beloved
Meleth nin: my love
Naneth: mother
Thanguriel: true heart daughter of/ girl"
What do you say? Are those wrong or not? -
Actually, that looks pretty good. by
on 2015-02-11 09:13:00 UTC
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I'm not sure what's going on with 'ellith' - that's a plural, not a singular - but the rest of it seems okay. I know naneth is, for sure. Ionnath would more usually be seen with a single n (as in Hurinionath, the House of Hurin), but that's orthography, not language.
I know where they got their names from: RealElvish.net lists Orelon... and, yep, Thanguriel is in there too. That latter is even considerate enough to use gur - 'inner mind' - rather than hun - 'beating thing in your chest'.
So yes: for once, the Sindarin is pretty good!
hS -
I'm surprised. by
on 2015-02-11 11:14:00 UTC
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The fic butchers canon in numerous ways.
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Yeah, I looked. by
on 2015-02-11 11:46:00 UTC
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My guess is that the author searched for something like 'elvish names', which throws up RealElvish.net on the first page for Google. Then they kept looking around the same site. There's nothing fundamentally attractive about the Grey Company's Grelvish lists if you don't run into them first.
Or, y'know, the author could be someone who's put a lot of effort into learning Sindarin - but hasn't learnt how to write a decent story yet. People do that, y'know. Badfic authors aren't (usually) malevolent - they just haven't learnt how to do it yet. That's why we don't flame them (well, one of the reasons).
hS -
I gotta thank Neshomeh for kind of reminding me... by
on 2015-02-09 14:59:00 UTC
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I have some doubts about two of the names for my OC:
1) Tharellien: (thar- + ell + -ien) "Of/From Beyond/Across/Over the Sky/Heaven", is an essi apacenryë, and the meaning refers to the OC's fate and as such is a Plot Point. My main doubts are; if this is a correct way to use the meaning and if it will sound well.
2) Gerfinneth:(ger + find + -eth) "Coppery-Red Haired One", nickname/adopted name; my main problem with this one is spelling, I'm not entirely convinced that that is the correct way to spell it.
Yes, the OC is female, no, that is not a Plot Point. Both names are supposed to be in Sindarin -
Let's take a look. by
on 2015-02-09 16:23:00 UTC
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Disclaimer: my Sindarin is based on the Ardalambion model. If you have a different source, you may find some differences.
Tharellien: 'Thar' (as in 'Thargelion') is beyond, indeed, but I'm not sure where 'ell' came from? You might be thinking of 'el', star, but heaven is 'menel'. That provides the name 'Tharvenel', but honestly I wouldn't use something that reminds me of an STD. Beyond the Stars would be 'Tharelin' or 'Thariliath' (though that latter is a bit dubious... depending on how you parse it, it may need to be 'Tharngiliath', but that's not a word any self-respecting elf would use).
A vowel-heavy ending on 'Tharelin' wouldn't work too well... if you'll accept a singular star, you could have 'Tharelien', One from Beyond a Star - you could even keep the double-L, since it doesn't change the way it's said. There's also the word gilwen, which refers to the starry dome of the sky (it's Q. 'Ilmen'), so 'Tharngilwen' would work, is pronounceable, and even comes with a built-in feminine ending (so can actually translate back as 'Lady from Beyond a Star').
Gerfinneth: 'ger' seems to be a corruption of 'gaer', meaning coppery - but also meaning sea and awe-inspiring. Regrettably the other coppery word, 'ross', has its own homophones (foam and glitter(!)).
'find' is obviously our old friend hair (specifically a head of it); it would usually show up in compounds as 'fin', but the double 'n' makes sense. 'f' doesn't mutate, so that's a plus.
'-eth'... well, it shows up as 'out of' before a th. I'm not really sure where this suffix is coming from, but it seems like a reasonable contraction of 'elleth' (and 'Gerfinelleth' is too long, and 'Gerfilleth' just doesn't look right). 'Gaerfinneth' is the more correct spelling, but y'know, vowels... so overall, I'm inclined to give you this one. It looks better than 'Gerfineth', certainly.
Overall: So she's using her mother-name and an after-name? Not a problem, but it sparks the question of why she has the after-name. It's fairly nondescript, even if it is a near cognate to 'Russandol' (hi, Maedhros!). Usually when afternames are used they seem to be either:
-A nickname among friends, as indeed 'Russandol' was.
-Highly personally or politically significant, as in Elu Thingol 'the Grey-Cloak' (ie, Lord of the Sindar), Finrod Felagund 'the Hewer of Caves', or of course Luthien Tinuviel 'my husband gave me this name, and if you complain you'll find out exactly why the Powers of West and North alike bent to my will'.
-The only name they use, as with... well, most of the Noldor, technically, but let's cite Galadriel and, uh, Maedhros again as examples.
So is 'Gerfinneth' what her friends call her ('Oy, Gingernut!')? Or is she somehow significant for her red hair (being a descendent of Mahtan would probably do that), or is she normally Gerfinneth unless things are getting plotty?
hS
PS: Actually, writing it over and over, 'Gerfinneth' is starting to bother me. It's... I dunno, it just feels like it's too weak before that 'rf' cluster there. Compare 'Glorfindel', where there's a nice solid 'Gl' to start you off; here, it's just a bit weak.
Actually, 'Gerfindeth' might make it a bit better; it places the emphasis clearly on 'find' - ger-FIND-eth - which is where it should be. I'd probably go with that.
('Gaerfindeth' - no, that's clearly a Welsh castle. Stick with 'ger') -
Let´s see... by
on 2015-02-09 21:04:00 UTC
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(This is the model I used: http://www.realelvish.net/)
1) I would indeed accept a singular star in Tharelien, that name keeps a similar idea to the one I look for and sounds practically the same.
2) I do indeed like more the sound of Gerfindeth, in fact, that was my original plan!
Actually she would be using her father-name, mother-name and an after-name, so her full name would be Elanoriel Tharelien Gerfindeth (I decided not give her a chosen-name because laziness). Which one will be used, depends on the point in time of the story; for example, the after-name will not be used during the earlier chapters, because she would not have received it yet.
And that brings me to the next point, has an after-name because all the three reasons! In all seriousness though, her after-name will be kind of a business-name for strangers and co-workers, kind of like Aragorn's Strider. How she gets it... Well that would be [SPOILERS!], and I cannot say those here... -
Yeah, but name one elf who did that. by
on 2015-02-09 21:25:00 UTC
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I can barely think of a handful who even used two names. In fact, let's see:
Finrod Felagund (always top of my list ^_^)
Luthien Tinuviel
(Possibly) Aredhel Ar-Feiniel
Idril Celebrindal
Elrond Peredhil
(Ereinion) Gil-Galad
Arwen Undomiel
Um...
Legolas Thranduilion?
Elu Thingol (duh)
Oh! Beleg Cuthalion
And...
Um...
... yeah.
I'm sure I've missed someone/s, but even so. That's ten characters; one of them's a 'son of Thranduil', one (Gil-Galad) barely qualifies, and one (Aredhel) we never see them written together. According to Middle-earth Statistics, there are 98 named elves in the Legendarium.
Most commonly, the Eldar would take either their father- or mother-name (and there's no evidence they even had both outside Valinor, interestingly), and - when it was significant - would add an epesse of one kind or another. Stringing names together in a long line... wasn't really done. I mean, yes, the first son of Feanor and Nerdanel technically had the names 'Nelyafinwe Matimo Maedhros Russandol' - but he only used the one.
As for the 'business name' concept... as Aragorn points out in the book, he was given the name Strider by the folk of Bree. He doesn't use it by particular choice, though he grows quite fond of it when he keeps getting it from the hobbits. There's no indication that he regularly gave his name - or, if he did, that he gave it as anything other than Aragorn.
More generally, the only real reason people in Middle-earth hide their names is when they're... hiding them! Aragorn was Thorongil, 'the Eagle of the Star', in Gondor in his youth, because revealing himself to be Isildur's Heir in front of the Steward wouldn't exactly have been politic (and that 'Ar-' prefix is very iconic of that family). Turin, famously, tried to hide his name everywhere he went - but it didn't work.
Luthien once claimed to be Thuringwethil, and Finrod claimed to be an orc - but that was disguise. In fact, the only elves I know of to have deliberately kept their names hidden... were Celegorm and Curufin, when they entrapped Luthien. They're... not a good role model.
And... well, see what I said about magic. When Luthien was enchanting her hair, she did it by naming the various things she was drawing on. If you try to disavow your own name - won't you become less 'yourself'? And among the Eldar, quite literally the most grounded people in Arda, that's a terrifying idea. I'd be willing to guess they told ghost stories about houseless spirits who had been wandering so long, they'd forgotten their own names...
(Which also explains why Feanor made such a fuss over renaming Melkor as 'the Dark Enemy of the World'. Is it significant that he was never able to assume a fair form after that point? Nah... can't be... right?)
((ALSO: 'you all thought I was merely Axabras, but in secret I am [DRAMATIC CHORD] Inuska!!!' is a very Suvian scene which should be avoided at all costs. Remember how early we're given Aragorn's true name?))
hS -
Clarification by
on 2015-02-09 23:58:00 UTC
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Actually, at no point of the story I planned to string the names like that, is only used for reference in notes outside the story. The names in-story would be used like this:
1) Elanoriel is the most used one, in fact is the one which she uses to present herself, and therefore those who know her will use this name for her.
2) Come to think about, she never uses Tharelien, in the one-and-a-half chapters I have written so far, the name is used exactly once (In comparison, the name above is used at least 20 times) and only her mother calls her like that. And her mother will stop appearing after Chapter II. (Coming to think about it, I could totally drop this name.)
3) Gerfindeth is a nickname she grew fond of, and thus "adopted". Therefore, would be used by those who aren't well acquainted with her. This one has yet to appear in-story and won´t appear until Chapter IV.
(Note 1: Thanks for reminding me that bit about Aragorn, it has been a while since I read the book, like about 10 years. I really should buy them, but I'm poor. XD)
(Note 2: "business-name" was the first thing that came to my mind when I tried to explain myself and as I have discovered; wasn´t exactly the correct choice of words. Sorry, English is not my first language. =P) -
Hmm. by
on 2015-02-10 09:32:00 UTC
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Elanoriel bothers me. I can't really come up with an instance of that kind of naming in any Eldarin culture. More likely would be a name that has the same meaning, but not the same sound - 'Anorel' would work by itself, or 'Anorelien'. You could also switch to the alternate words for 'sun' and 'star', which are Naur and Gîl. Gîlnoriel might work (yes, apparently 'naur' becomes '-nor' in most compounds), or Narilien (though technically that should be 'Narngilien', which isn't very nice).
O'course, I can't stop you either way, and this is all my opinion on what 'feels right' - there's nothing technically flawed about 'Elanoriel'. I just don't like it. ^_^
I'd agree with dropping 'Tharelien' entirely - there's no need to make a story extra-confusing Just Because, and insisting on using a name your child has chosen to let slide is a mark of pretty bad parenting - as in, Feanor did it.
hS -
I could change that name too... by
on 2015-02-10 14:38:00 UTC
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I chose that name because I was looking for some kind of flower-related name (apparently elanor is some kind of flower) and none of the compounds used for loth "sound right" for me.
And to be fair, her parents are very bad parents, and there´s no way this could go wrong. Nope, nope, nope. -
Um. Yes, it's 'some kind of flower'. by
on 2015-02-10 15:33:00 UTC
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Specifically, the golden 'Star-Sun', or elanor, bloomed east of the Sea only in the land of Lorien. I believe they also grew in Numenor, back in the day. Sam Gamgee named his daughter after them (hobbits having a thing for flower names).
But... again, I can't come up with a canonical Elda named after... well, I don't even need to say 'a flower'; how about 'a species'? Or even 'a specific object' (as opposed to a general one like 'star').
(This is technically untrue - Finduilas of Nargothrond was nicknamed 'Faelivrin' by her fiance, which means 'sunlight on the pools of Ivrin'. But that's an epesseand Gwindor was an incurable romantic, not a birth-name.
Like I say - there's nothing that says you can't be named after a type of flower. But it's not something I've ever seen. (And leaving aside everything else, readers will assume you named her after Elanor Gamgee... ^_~)
Flower names, flower names... you've said she's a Third Age character, so let's try for local colour.
Rivendell
I'd love a compound based on imloth, 'flowering valley', here. Imlothiel might work well by itself, even, or Imlothwen. You could use the other variant of loth - loss - and pull out Imlossiel. Of the three, I think I like Imlothwen ('maid from the flowering valley') most.
Lorien
I really wanted to go for 'secret blossom' here, but unfortunately the words for 'secret' are things like dolen, hall, thurin, which don't make very female-sounding names. So instead, let's draw on the defining feature of Lorien and go with Malhilith - 'silver gleam from gold'. That encapsulates a mallorn well, I think.
Mirkwood
Obviously we need 'forest' in here, and to avoid ripping off Tauriel, we need it as -daur-. I quite like Tuidaurwen, or Tuidauriel - 'forest bud maid'. It'd be said 'twi-DOW'R-iel'. I'd probably go for the latter, purely because I can't get the w to actually come out in '-daurwen'.
For either of the forest realms, you could also have Calenloth, 'green blossom', giving overtones of 'unripe'. The -th gives it a soft enough feel to work for a woman despite the o.
The Grey Havens
I really like the sound of Sireirin, 'daisies of the river', but unfortunately compounding them makes it look like 'sire' (it's sir-eirin). Lirfalas, 'song of the shoreline', isn't flower-related at all, but I like it anyway. Actually, 'Lireirin', 'song of the daisies', might work - but again, that -re- cluster breaks the reading up too much. I can't pull a decent name out of this combination, I'm afraid.
hS -
Morgoth-damn you, Samwise Gamgee!! *shakes fist* by
on 2015-02-10 18:44:00 UTC
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Jokes aside, I should have pointed out that was an elleth from The Woodland Realm of Northern Mirkwood. That said, I like the way the name "Erynloth" sounds and the rhytmn it gets combined with the nickname "Gerfindeth", meesa thinks that meesa can keep it.
That takes me to a question: Should the name of the OC be derived from the name of the OC's mother? -
Definitely not. by
on 2015-02-10 19:01:00 UTC
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Earwen > (Artanis) Nerwen > Celebrian > Arwen. The only common theme there is '-wen', and that's in no way evidence of a connection.
Erynloth Gerfindeth - yeah, that works.
hS -
Thanks! Now's time to beta hunting!! (nm) by
on 2015-02-10 20:12:00 UTC
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Trivia tiiiime! =oD by
on 2015-02-09 21:40:00 UTC
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That "very Suvian thing" hS pointed out? That's a butchered, overused stylistic device called exegesis. Unless you want to sound like Victor Hugo when his medication runs out, use it sparingly if at all. Most people don't, which is why it lacks any kind of power.
"Hugo, hélas" indeed. =]
((Hopefully y'all done learned somethin'.)) -
RE: Gorgorbîn by
on 2015-02-09 11:08:00 UTC
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Wasn't he the bad guy out The Smurfs?
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Not quite. by
on 2015-02-09 12:10:00 UTC
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That's Gargamel.
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Still... by
on 2015-02-08 01:28:00 UTC
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Tauriel took a beating that could have turned the T-800 Terminator into scrap metal, and had only some minor scratches and bruises after it. XD
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In similar vein... by
on 2015-02-08 00:20:00 UTC
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I meant to ask you about this a while ago, but how well would cannons work against something like Sauron in corporeal form? It's for the early-gunpowder-weaponry-in-Arda thing. I mean, you don't exactly have to worry about a cannonball dissolving, but case and canister would probably be ineffectual. Roundshot and rocket-fire all the way. =]
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Probably quite well. by
on 2015-02-08 07:04:00 UTC
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I mean, Sauron showed repeatedly that he was vulnerable to disembodiment: Huan was able to threaten him with it, the fall of Numenor achieved it, and so did Isildur. It's not that hard to bump off Sauron's physical body.
The difficulty is making him stay that way. 'Involuntary separation from the One Ring' is the tried-and-true method - the fall of Numenor was less effective because Sauron either left the Ring in Mordor, or wasn't actually separated from it.
So yeah - blow up his hand, and you can probably put Sauron down for a couple of thousand years, provided you (this is entirely speculative) claim the Ring and deprive him of his power source. Just remember that no cannon ever built can damage the One.
hS
