Subject: Aren't Noldorin and Sindarin the same thing?
Author:
Posted on: 2015-02-04 19:30:00 UTC
That is, as I understand it, Tolkien originally intended Sindarin to be the language spoken by the Noldor, so he calls it Noldorin in earlier texts. However, he changed his mind and made it the speech of the Grey Elves, so it's called Sindarin instead.
This is according to something I recently read at the Tolkien Gateway, which seems to be pretty reliable.
~Neshomeh
So I believe the last time Caddy and I posted a PPC story was sometime in 2012. We actually started writing several more stories, but we never managed to finish them.
Until Now!
We not only finished a story, it introduces a brand new team!
So at long last, A Very Gloomy Introduction.
"[T]he Department of Out of Character Hobbits needs me." There's a sentence that's never been uttered before.
And... yikes. Incorporeal agent. That's gonna be interesting to watch.
hS
"Dagger! Dagger Dagger Dagger!"
Agent Dagger put down her book with a sigh, and wished yet again that she wore glasses so that she could glare at her partner over them. "Have you just found a lost weapon," she asked, "or are you trying to get my attention?"
"I haven't lost a dagger," Maly mused, "so I guess it's the former. And speaking of guessing - guess what!"
"Is it that Tanfin's moving up to the Sprouts next week?" Dagger suggested. "Because you've enthused over that four times already today."
"That is pretty cool," Maly admitted, "but no. We've got a recruit!"
"I didn't think any more kids were turning four for a couple of months," Dagger said, tapping at the console to pull up the latest list from the Nursery. "Did they pull a kid out of a badfic somewhere?"
"Not that, silly sausage," Maly said. "A recruit. To the department."
Dagger swung around in her chair and stared at her partner. "To Out-of-Character Hobbits?" she demanded.
"Mm-yep!" Maly beamed. "The Authoritative Elanor called me in to say that some chick called Math-thrower or something is moving in with us, due to 'the increased demand caused by the release of the new movies'. Won't that be awesome?"
"I suppose it'll increase my reading time," Dagger allowed. "So where's she going to operate out of? I'm surprised Operations are willing to give us another RC."
"No, silly," Maly said, "didn't you listen? She's moving in with us."
"... you have got to be kidding."
"Nope!" There was a knock on the door, and Maly bounced over to it. "What do you reckon - is that her, or is it her new bed? Ooh! Maybe it's both!"
hS
(Because Maly and Dagger are fun. ^_^)
Doom/Gloom has been one of my favorite PPC agents for a while now, soooooo . . . I'm glad she actually exists now!
Yaaaaaaaaay!
Nah, I kid. Yes, we are glad she exists now too! It's ben wwaaaa(like seriously)aaaaay too long since we started that. Good thing we have no excuses for the actual mission, since it was almost done too. Ha ha ha!
But both my computers right now are pretty garbage, and get crashed by the chat room. I'll get a new computer eventually, and hang out more again!
Glad to hear from you again, though! Now WRITE MORE! It FEEDS ME!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsmngHziLrs
I look forward to talking with you more, of course. Gloom's first mision with Carry should be done soonish, so that should stave you off from eating any poor newbies for a bit.
-_^
It seems fine to me, but I'm also wondering which continuum Gloom comes from...
Unfortunately I don't know her origin. Apparently it's a somewhat obscure game?
I don't remember Carry Onin and Nicodemus. Did you actually write the mission where Cadmar and his/her partners rescued them, or is this one of your unfinished tales?
Who shut the bathroom door? I have to ask, because I'm not a native speaker, and I'm trying to learn grammar and punctuation. To me, Gloom watched him retreat, and shut the bathroom door looks like Gloom watched Carry retreat, and than she shut the bathroom door. But that's impossible, because we know that she cannot touch the door. If retreat and shut the bathroom door is what gloom watched Carry doing, I would omit the comma.
Isn't the Floating Hyacint floating in some kind of pond or bassin when Gloom jumps on the spot and hugs the Hyacinth's stalk? Nice stealth pun when we realize later that Gloom doesn't care, because the water cannot wet her.
HG
I do Gloom/doom is from Corpse Party. The game not the anime. She looks something like this only without a missing eye.
We'll take that comma out. It was intended to be Carry closing the door.
Carry Onin and Nicodemus were originally from this mission PPC for Eva! by Caddy-shack. It was the first mission with Maria, Cadmar, and Mark together.
Nicodemus had no name in that story. He has picked it up somewhere else. I know it isn't a good name for someone who was supposed to be from Rohan, but their entire region was uncanon, and they actually knew very little about the real Rohan.
Carry treats Nico as a son, although he was described as a brother in the mission. There'll be more backstory on how they got from badfic rescues to Agent living with child in future stories.
Maethrowen was originally Gláclya from that fic. I am not any sort of expert with Elvish, so if Maethrowen is a terrible name for an elf, let me know.
Well Maethrowen... is not a bad name per se, it just has a one or two orthographical errors, it should be written Meidhwen, Maidhwen or Maedhwen (like Maedhros, the son of Feanor), the meaning would be "pale maiden", from maidh, "pale", "fallow" or "fawn"; and -wen, "maiden".
Sources:
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Maidh
http://www.realelvish.net/sindarin_namespeople.php
Well in that case, I am surprised it as close as it is, because I am almost certain I remember the site I got the name from saying it meant something like battle maiden.
Thank you for the help, I'll fix the spelling in the story.
And your source wasn't exactly wrong, but wasn't right either; the Noldorin maeth, refers more to a fight or a small brawl between a small amount of people, rather than an actual "battle"; not exactly the word someone would use for name, and even if was used, the name would be "Maethwen"
Authwen ("War/Battle Maiden") and Dagrwen ("Battle Maiden"), although not exactly names an elleth would use; are closer to that meaning, if your were seeking for a name with that meaning.
Maethor is Sindarin (presumably Noldorin, but Ardalambion doesn't specify well) for 'warrior'. So Maethorwen is a perfectly good name meaning 'Warrior Woman'. Not a terribly creative name for a child, but then again, neither is 'Man-Woman' (hi, Galadriel!), or 'Elf-Man' (hi, Elladan!).
Maedhwen would definitely fit the character, who's described like this:
A young elf, probably a few years, as in a hundred or so, older that her walked up. She had blonde hair, emerald green eyes, long eye lashes. She was tall, probably 5"9' or so. She wore a long black dress and she was almost as pale as Eva. This girl was beautiful. Eva couldn't even take her eyes off her.
But she also gets quite violent, so Maethorwen would work, too. Hmm... since I've adopted her, I'll have to read her origin mission and find out who she is. ^_^
hS
Glacyla, as she was then known:
-5'9'', which means she's not Noldorin, and probably not Vanyarin either; she's a Teler of some description.
-Blonde, which might suggest she's related to Thranduil in some way (though not closely), or Haldir (ditto).
-Green eyes. Emerald green eyes, which is unfortunate. Put that down to her being a badfic character.
-Looks about 120... but she's an elf, and I doubt Eva has any skill in judging these things. It's not like she was looking into her eyes or anything.
-Has 'cold' eyes.
-Has a violent streak.
-Is quite clearly under the influence of the Voice of Saruman. That implies... what? Saruman never became openly evil, so he's not going about kidnapping elves. Perhaps she was a member of his staff, before he turned to Sauron, and never got a chance to leave.
Did Isengard have a household staff? It's hard to imagine Saruman cooking his own meals, bleaching his own robes, running his own forges and the like, and we know he wouldn't have been using orcs before the War of the Ring (because he's not thick). So perhaps, yes, he had elves on the staff. I can't really imagine him trusting Men, though he certainly used them.
And what sort of elf would he want to... employ, for want of a better word? One from Eregion, who might know something about ring-lore. Yet Glawhatsit was being used as a housemaid, which means she didn't know about rings.
Okay, then. She was born in Eregion to parents out of either Lorien or Doriath (in both cases, having come to Eregion with Galadriel and Celeborn). Her blonde hair and unusual light eyes got her named Maedhwen, 'the pale maiden'. When she grew up, she became a warrior, and chose the name Maethorwen - because it sounds like her original name, so she was sure she'd respond to it.
She fought against Sauron's forces during the fall of Eregion, and was one of the survivors who managed to retreat to Imladris. When Numenorean aid drove Sauron back, she moved to Lindon - she wanted to live somewhere with a decent population (ie, not Imladris), and didn't want to live under tree cover (ie, not Lorien).
She fought in the War of the Last Alliance in Gil-Galad's host, and acquitted herself well. When the Noldor began to quit Middle-earth, she remained in Mithlond, and (when not guarding the city) became an adequate shipbuilder under Cirdan.
She was present in the city when Saruman's ship arrived, and despite not knowing who or what he was - he just looked like an elderly mortal - she sensed something in him: a power and skill of Craft which she hadn't seen since the glory days of Eregion. Of course, Saruman was heading east, so she could do little but watch him go.
Over a thousand years later, he returned: still looking old and worn, but with his inner power if possible even stronger. Maethorwen accompanied Cirdan to the formation of the White Council, though of course she wasn't privy to its discussions; but afterwards she offered her service to Saruman. He, already coming up with his own plans, accepted; and when, 300 years later, he took possession of Isengard, Maethorwen went with him.
From Saruman's perspective, she was something of an experiment: he was annoyed that the Eldar didn't succumb to his manipulations and his voice very easily, so he used Maethorwen to test the long-term effects of it. As it turned out, this was a reasonable success - by a combination of flattery, demeaning comments, and magic, Maethorwen ended up doing whatever Saruman wanted, though not always very happily. She mostly hid her anger and disappointment, coming across as emotionless and cold. But when she let it get out, she was still a force to be reckoned with.
I think that's a decent backstory to account for her presence in the badfic, and means she doesn't have to be yet another 'hey, pick a name for yourself' character. Good! Welcome to the DOOCH, Maedhwen Maethorwen.
hS
I don't know if the consonant cluster "grw" is allowed in Sindarin. Would it be, rather, Dagorwen?
I'm trying to study up on my Elven languages a little. I've got a fic that I'm pretty sure abuses them, and I'd love to not have to come crying for help too much. {= )
(But I probably will anyway.)
~Neshomeh
The word is not Sindarin, dagr is the Noldorin to the Sindarin dagor, in fact, all the names are in Noldorin. And fair enough, I don't know it's allowed in Noldorin either, and my research gave me no definitive answers.
That is, as I understand it, Tolkien originally intended Sindarin to be the language spoken by the Noldor, so he calls it Noldorin in earlier texts. However, he changed his mind and made it the speech of the Grey Elves, so it's called Sindarin instead.
This is according to something I recently read at the Tolkien Gateway, which seems to be pretty reliable.
~Neshomeh
The problem is that Tolkien kept developing his languages, so Noldorin and Sindarin are different - despite being the 'same' language in terms of the Legendarium. Similarly, Quenya and the older Qenya are the 'same' language - but they're completely incompatible.
And of course, the same applies within the languages. 'Quenya' - even Quenya post-dating LotR - kept changing as Tolkien came up with new ideas or tweaked old ones. Any consistent Eldarin language is a construct, taking old words and structures and splicing them into new ones, tweaking them to fit.
(And just for fun: I understand 'Sindar' is a Quenya word. ^_^ Figure that one out.)
hS
... that no elf would be caught dead saying 'Dagrwen'. It just doesn't feel like a word - and in the Eldarin tongues, that's a key component.
hS
When I say I remember the site had it as Battle maiden, I am saying the site I found wasn't reliable.
