Both seems needlessly complicated to me.

Subject: Both seems needlessly complicated to me.
Author: Neshomeh
Posted on: 2015-01-20 21:23:00 UTC

I mean, if you've got a character replacement, it's essentially an original character pretending to be a canon character. There's nothing stopping it from being as uncanonical and illogical as any other bad OC. I dunno why it would need to be possessed as well.

The difference between regular OOCness, possession, and replacement is mostly a matter of degree, so whether or not an uncanonical backstory would create a character replacement depends on how OOC the character is. If they behave in the story how they likely would if they really had that backstory, that might not be bad at all—exploring that sort of thing could easily be the subject of a good AU. If it's so terribly written that their characterization doesn't even make sense with the altered backstory, that's another matter.

... I'm not sure I'm making sense, so let me know if I need to clarify what I'm trying to say here. ^_^;

~Neshomeh

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A question about possession/replacement... by SkarmorySilver on 2015-01-20 20:03:00 UTC Reply

I'm working on a little thing, and I've hit a bit of a snag, so I thought I'd ask you guys to help out.

Can a character be replaced by giving them an uncanonical backstory? And additionally, can a replacement be possessed by a Sue-wraith? Like, say, if the replacement starts remembering memories that aren't canonical, could that be caused by a Sue-wraith or something implanting them into him or her rather than just part of their character?

I remember reading on the Wiki that replacement and possession are different from one another, but I don't know if they're mutually exclusive and can't happen at the same time...

Both seems needlessly complicated to me. by Neshomeh on 2015-01-20 21:23:00 UTC Reply

I mean, if you've got a character replacement, it's essentially an original character pretending to be a canon character. There's nothing stopping it from being as uncanonical and illogical as any other bad OC. I dunno why it would need to be possessed as well.

The difference between regular OOCness, possession, and replacement is mostly a matter of degree, so whether or not an uncanonical backstory would create a character replacement depends on how OOC the character is. If they behave in the story how they likely would if they really had that backstory, that might not be bad at all—exploring that sort of thing could easily be the subject of a good AU. If it's so terribly written that their characterization doesn't even make sense with the altered backstory, that's another matter.

... I'm not sure I'm making sense, so let me know if I need to clarify what I'm trying to say here. ^_^;

~Neshomeh

But it's happened before. by SkarmorySilver on 2015-01-20 22:36:00 UTC Reply

Like Voyd said, Florestan and Eusabius ran into a possessed Ike replacement in a Super Smash Bros fic, so at least doing both at once can be done. The replacement stated that the Sue-wraith used him as a tool, so maybe that could be the case with what I'm doing as well.

What I was thinking was that the character replacement occurred when the character was given a new name and a backstory that's completely inconsistent with canon. I guess I'll have to spoil this to you guys in that case - my next solo mission concerns a Kid Icarus badfic (which I'm pretty sure I linked on the Board a very long while ago) in which Pit was given a full name (Pit Edward White) and a backstory in which he was formerly a World One human who was murdered at the age of 13, and turned into an angel. Which doesn't make sense at all in context. There's a brief shot of him as a young angel in one of the animated shorts for Uprising, which implies that he was born an angel and not created from a dead person as the fic suggested.
As for the possession bit, in the original fic, Pit had his human memories suppressed for his own safety, and ended up having them restored to him later on. Until then, though, he got "memory sick" - and the results weren't pretty, to say the least. The idea I had in mind was that while the replacement of Pit was harmless even with the altered origin, the Sue-wraith would attempt to enforce OOC behavior anyway to progress the story, and the agents would have to get rid of it to restore order.

And speaking of which, is there anyone familiar with the Kid Icarus continuum who would like to beta-read this mission once I'm done? Iximaz has agreed to help but she knows very little about it, so...

Many things have happened before. by Neshomeh on 2015-01-20 23:22:00 UTC Reply

That doesn't mean they were all good ideas. {= P

(And yes, full disclosure, I beta'd that mission of Herr's, but that doesn't mean I agree with all of his choices. As I recall, he really wanted to recruit not!Ike ~~who hasn't turned up since~~ and introduce a shiny new kind of wraith ~~that will probably never be seen again~~, so yeah.)

Anyway: the entire point of a character replacement is that the character is so incredibly OOC that it might as well be someone else entirely. It doesn't need a wraith to make it more OOC; that's redundant.

On the flip side, the entire point of Sue-wraiths is that they go after canon characters and force them to behave like Mary Sues. A non-canon character that behaves like a Mary Sue is simply a Mary Sue.

If what you want is to give your agents a heck of a mess to clean up, I'd simply go with possession. Then they have to exorcise the poor guy and get rid of all his non-canon memories and any extra abilities he might've picked up and mop up any other non-canon stuff that's been introduced to the continuum along the way, without any cathartic killing to let them blow off steam. Since they're in Floaters, it can't be all assassinations all the time. {= )

~Neshomeh

Actually, well... by SkarmorySilver on 2015-01-21 00:00:00 UTC Reply

My motives were actually fairly similar to Herr Wozzeck's - I really want to recruit not!Pit, though I'm not planning to introduce a new kind of author wraith like Herr did (to be fair, an Impetus miserablis did show up in one of Anneli, Xanthus, and Cindy's missions too). So I'm probably going to go with him being a replacement. The problem is that I needed a way to distinguish him from canon!Pit, and I figured that recoloring his wings would be a good idea. What I was thinking was that the Sue-wraith possessing him and making him OOC would be indicated by his wings turning increasingly pink, and by the time the agents rescued him, the wings would be permanently stained. (I'm not kidding when I say that I also considered explaining the recoloring by making the Sue-wraith venomous, but in hindsight I have a feeling that may not fly with some of the more experienced Boarders.)

If there's another way that I could recolor the replacement that would be more consistent with PPC lore, though, I could use that instead. Recoloring him after the fic has been killed specifically to distinguish him from canon!Pit feels like a bit of a cop-out, though, so something that could be feasibly integrated into the mission as a story element would be better for me personally.

Another idea I had prior to the whole possessed!replacement!character thing was that when the exorcism occurs, it splits the replacement in the same way that the original canonical character was split. The massively OOC characterization could break off into something that could be destroyed, and what's left is a 'blank slate' character who could start from scratch. It's a bit like how Huinesoron accidentally wiped Not!Arwen's memory (and thus made her into her own character) in "Empire State of Mind". In this case, Not!Pit would retain his origin story, but his behavior would be more consistent with it rather than what his homefic had stated originally.

Incidentally, I wonder if you're familiar enough with the Kid Icarus continuum to beta-read the mission once it's ready...

So, let me see if I understand by Phobos on 2015-01-21 01:05:00 UTC Reply

You want to recruit Pit, but with slightly different coloration so you can pretend to not be recruiting a canon character. In order to accomplish this, you want to have the character be possessed and, at the same time, a character replacement; two things that are functionally identical. What I mean is, they are both methods of explaining the phenomenon of why a character is not behaving in-character.

This all strikes me as really complicated and unnecessary. Let me illustrate what I mean:

You want to make fried chicken (not!Pit). There are two good methods to make that happen; you either pan fry it (character replacement) or you deep fry it (possession). Both methods will give you fried chicken that you can eat and enjoy. However, you decide that in order to get the chicken the way you want it, you need to deep fry and pan fry. That being the case, you will end up with over-cooked, burnt chicken that will be unpalatable. It just doesn't make any sense to do both methods together. You get no added benefit, and quite possibly make the whole thing inedible.

Pick a method and simplify.

-Phobos, Zinc Saucier

I find it hilarious that you used the chicken wing analogy. by SkarmorySilver on 2015-01-21 02:04:00 UTC Reply

Spicy Angel Wings, anybody? XD But anyway, yeah, you're right about a Sue-wraith possessing a replacement being way too much. I've ultimately decided to go with the replacement approach, without any Sue-wraiths involved.

Granted, the whole business about not!Pit being replaced *and* possessed didn't come up until quite late in the mission, and I got stuck before I could go any further than that discovery, which is why I took this to the Board in the first place. If I'd gone ahead with doing both like Herr did with not!Ike, I don't think that would have gone over so well. The thing is, though, I haven't gotten to the point where the agents step in just yet, so it's not going to hurt very much to simply go in a different direction than what was originally planned. So yeah, pan-fried spicy angel wings it is, then.

Of course, this leaves the question of how to recolor him without making it sound cheap. A Sue-wraith can definitely change the physical characteristics of a person, as was the case with Cadmar, but I'm not sure how to recolor a replacement in a similar way. I was thinking that Pit's OOC behavior was what caused his wings to change color, like an indicator of Sueness, but I'm not sure how that would work out, because there was no mention of his wings changing color in the badfic itself. Maybe it's an unintended side-effect of the climactic exorcism?

Why do you need to recolour him? by Huinesoron on 2015-01-21 09:06:00 UTC Reply

Other than, as Phobos suggested, so you can pretend you're not recruiting a canon character. You've already mentioned ~~not!Arwen~~ Hypatia - she looks exactly like Arwen (and/or Luthien, depending on whether you ask Kaitlyn), the difference is in her personality. Dafydd's the same way - he's identical to Maglor Feanorion, except for being 'darker'. (Though, honestly, given that non-Dafydd Maglor was OOC levels of nice in his origin story, it's entirely possible Dafydd is just straight Maglor and no-one's ever noticed)

So why not just... leave him as he is? It lets you run gags about people recognising him in HQ, and about him running into problems on missions - in fact, I'm having a hard time seeing a, y'know, downside.

hS

For the canons' sake. Probably. by SkarmorySilver on 2015-01-21 15:45:00 UTC Reply

To settle the question of possession or replacement, I've ultimately decided to go with possession, since it does provide a bigger mess to clean up; however, instead of just getting rid of a Sue-wraith, I had the idea that Palutena, being the one who "created" Pit in the badfic, splits off "Pit" from the canon version in the same fashion as the Mirror of Truth creating Dark Pit in Uprising.

The biggest deciding factor in my decision to recolor the guy is that I wanted the canon characters to be able to distinguish "Pit" from Pit. One of the ideas I had was that Pit and Palutena both know about the PPC (which is based on the fact that both of them practically obliterate the fourth wall in Kid Icarus: Uprising, that and Palutena's a freaking goddess for crying out loud), and the plan was for "Pit" to encounter them again at a later time. What would Palutena think if she saw two Pits, rather than Pit and a Dark Pit-esque copy? As tempting as it is to use the jokes about "Pit" being mistaken for the real deal, I would prefer having Palutena be able to tell the difference right away, so she could change his wing color when she removes the AU version of Pit and makes him into his own character.

As you and Iximaz noted, though, the jokes related to "Pit" getting glomped would be a pretty interesting idea. I've decided that only his wings would need to be changed - that way, we could compromise and have people still mistake him for Pit and ask if he had his wings dyed. XD

I'm curious... by Neshomeh on 2015-01-21 17:27:00 UTC Reply

Why do you want to recruit him at all? I mean, you've already got five agents at least, right? What do you plan to do with another one?

I'm concerned that either you're not gonna do anything with him, in which case there's no point to all this drama, or you're possibly getting in over your head with the number of characters you've got to juggle.

~Neshomeh

Well... by SkarmorySilver on 2015-01-21 20:09:00 UTC Reply

The whole thing about recruitment was admittedly for Sarah's sake. While writing the mission, I slowly started to realize that it wouldn't be healthy for her to continue working with Rashida, since their personality differences would lead to nonstop violence and not many people would like that. Sarah needs an official RC and for that she needs a partner of her own, so I felt it would be best for her to be involved with him prior to being assigned.

When I first posted my bios for my first agents, they were originally planned to be in DIC prior to being moved to Floaters, so since both Sarah and not!Pit are from crossover fics it would make sense to put them there. I have a few crossovers I plan to spork, so it makes sense to have a team there. I will probably have to stop at three agent teams, though, since it would be better for me to not overload myself in terms of PPC stuff. ^^;

That's probably a good idea. by Iximaz on 2015-01-21 20:23:00 UTC Reply

I only have the one team and a lot of missions lined up. I can't imagine trying to juggle three teams! ^_^ Not to mention, your missions are really good. It would be a shame to see you stop writing because you took on too much.

Uhmm... by Edhelistar on 2015-01-21 16:57:00 UTC Reply

Still, you don't need to change not!Pit's wing color, like you said; Palutena is a goddess, she can see beyond his appearence and reconigze him, even if he looks the same as Pit. Also, remember that upon joining the PPC, not!Pit will use different clothes, a different name, and like others have said before me, he will have a wildly different personality.

Good point. by SkarmorySilver on 2015-01-21 20:24:00 UTC Reply

I guess the wing recoloring is out of the question, and as Huinesoron noted, keeping him looking the same as the canon Pit would be better for the sake of humor. And more interesting.

Different clothes, though... Hmmm, that gives me an idea...

But... surely that would be more interesting? by Huinesoron on 2015-01-21 15:52:00 UTC Reply

I mean, 'PPC agent gets mistaken for canon character', and even 'PPC agent gets mistaken for in-universe clone of canon character', sound like really interesting plots to read. 'PPC agent looks vaguely like a canon character but no-one cares', in contrast... isn't. It's just a nothing plot.

It's like the question of whether the SEP field affects Sues. 'PPC agents have to hide from a Sue' is interesting; 'PPC agents wander around with impunity and comment on things with no threat' is far less so, and is in fact simply an MST. So why would you go for the latter when you can have the former?

hS

Not to mention encountering fans in HQ. by Iximaz on 2015-01-21 10:08:00 UTC Reply

I'm sure there are at least a few agents who have Pit as a Lust Object. He'd have to deal with unexpected glompings.

Well, technically, it isn't an exorcism... by SkarmorySilver on 2015-01-21 02:08:00 UTC Reply

I don't know what key shortcut sequence I did to post that, but I'm not going to try it again anytime soon. What I meant to say was that I plan for the agents to split the replacement into two different entities: an AU version of Pit with the history specified in the fic whose character is built more realistically around it, and the OOC personality traits that can be destroyed. I may or may not structure it like an exorcism, but it's not exactly the same as banishing a Sue-wraith, that's a given.

They can both happen at the same time. by Voyd on 2015-01-20 20:10:00 UTC Reply

Eusabius and Florestan found an Ike replacement in a Smash Bros fic who was later possessed by a Sue-wraith.

Ah, okay. I'll look into it. by SkarmorySilver on 2015-01-20 20:15:00 UTC Reply

Looked into it, and that definitely answers my most important question. Thanks!

I'm still a little confused about the uncanonical backstory creating a replacement, though. I thought it was the character acting so OOC that there wasn't any excuse anymore.

Come to think of it... by Voyd on 2015-01-21 01:52:00 UTC Reply

Haven't you written a possessed replacement?

Granted, that was a troll and not a Sue-wraith, but still.