Subject: Bah. You win.
Author:
Posted on: 2014-11-25 09:07:00 UTC
Though I'm not sure whether he considered himself such - he may well have disowned his family when Cel'n'Cur were kicked out of Nargothrond. I'd have to check.
hS
So, yeah. Yesterday I saw a TV spot for B5A with '#OneLastTime' plastered all over it. I've just found another TV spot which actually features the line 'Fight for me - one last time', and describes it as 'the final journey'. And Kaitlyn showed me the video released today (as opposed to the one released last week; this is the version that has actual shots of him singing in it) for Billy Boyd's 'The Last Goodbye', which features clips not only from The Hobbit, but from The Lord of the Rings as well. And it's like, oh hey, you guys, and you scenes, I remember seeing you all years ago... Weirdly, for me, it's the shots of Frodo and Sam that hit me the hardest. I miss you guys!
So... yeah. This is going to be depressing, isn't it?
On the other hand, the main trailer for B5A is... really something. It looks like they've built up Thorin's relationship with Fili and Kili a lot - "Everything I did, I did for them." Saruman's actually in the trailer (and despite the uncanonicity of it, I can't wait to see him confront Sauron), and hey, giant army of Eldar for the first time lasting longer than ten seconds. That'll be cool. (Also Elrond with a sword; Elrond is awesome) And yeah, there's Legolas-states-the-obvious, and only about three Bilbo shots - but they are very Bilbo. And, and, and... yeah.
BRB, off to cry over videos again. Dang it all, this December is going to hurt...
hS
Books have better graphics, you know.
I wonder if they are going to do lots of Silmarillion movies next. After I get all six movies together, I'll try to watch it back to back afew times, then write something.
The problem is, Christopher Tolkien is dead set against releasing any more movie rights, and even though he's old, one imagines he's chosen a successor who agrees with him. So for the foreseeable future, the only things any movie (or game, for that matter) is allowed to draw on are:
-The Lord of the Rings books.
-The Hobbit.
No Silm, no Unfinished Tales, no History, no Children of Hurin (great loss there [/sarcasm]). So yeah.
I've been pondering LotR, and I'm wondering if they could do a trilogy based on the Appendices. I know, I know - but I'm specifically thinking of the fall of Arnor and the last kings of Gondor. The story of Arvedui of Arthedain, and Earnil and Earnur of Gondor, is laid out in quite some detail (enough that it's made it into several of the games, which are also on a LotR-only license), and there's a lot of stuff there which is the same kind of thing as people liked in the movies:
-Romance
-Men who look like Aragorn
-Prophecies
-Arguments
-Multiple big battles
-The Witch-King of Angmar
-There's even hobbits! Five hundred Hobbit archers were present at the fall of Fornost and the ousting of Arvedui Last-King. So we could still get a sample of that Shire Theme, and a neat reversal when it's the hobbits who show up unexpectedly, instead of the Elves.
I think it could work. A lot of the feasibility would depend on whether the White Council aspects of The Hobbit were popular, so if I were New Line, I'd be looking hard at that. I mean, heck - even the Istari are on the scene for that timeframe! Glorfindel plays a major role (blond Eldar are always popular), Thranduil and Legolas could show up in the last film... it's practically tailor-made.
If anyone's interested, I can throw together a breakdown of the story and how I think it could be turned into films; if not, I won't bother, because time is fleeting, etc etc. ;)
hS
As I am sure everybody on this board is aware, I am not quite the master on the lore of Middle Earth. Indeed, I have not even read LoTR once. That said, though this board, I have learned a little bit more. Enough to raise a strong eyebrow at the idea of a half-wrath who can control orcs with magic. Color me surprised when I see you two talking about how it follows some obscure lore from the series. So, to any of the Tolkien buffs out there, how does Shadow of Mordor hold up lore wise? I know it is a fun game, but how does it fit into Arda's history? Is it an alternate history that is surprisingly faithful to the original text, or is it a fun game with barely any connection to the world J.R.R. Tolkien crafted?
The canon elements which Shadow draws on are: a) Celebrimbor, Lord of Eregion, was killed by Sauron, and b) Mordor was once occupied by Gondor. Everything else... is pretty much made up, from what I've seen. The Gondorian occupation ended before the line of kings died out, and there's zero implication that it was anything other than fortresses in the mountains. More specifically, Mordor was under active evil control from just before the death of the last king of Gondor - ie, the fall of Minas Ithil, as seen in Fall of Kings: Throne of Gondor. And at no point was north-western Mordor suitable for farming or whatnot - it's the hinterland of an active volcano! Srsly. Sauron's farms were waaaaay down by Nurnen, three times further south of Barad-dur than Minas Tirith.
As for the half-wraith, orc-control things... no, not really. 'Wraith' has a specific meaning in Middle-earth - 'mortal who wore a Ring of Power long enough that he passed entirely to the Unseen World'. I've not played Shadow, or read any reviews since it came out, but I gather that's not what happens. And even if it were - magic doesn't work like that. Galadriel hints that if Frodo could use the Ring properly, he could command the other Ring-wielders, but says nothing about orcs. Sauron's ability to control orcs has, quite clearly, nothing to do with the Ring - it has to do with him being a demigod, and with the fact that, y'know, his master and mentor created them. And even then, it's much more 'command' than 'control'.
And you can't resurrect the dead. Even the Dead Men of Dunharrow were never able to physically affect the world - though I suppose that's not true in the Jacksonverse. Hey, is Talion neon green? That'd be funny. ^_^
... and I've just read the plot synopsis on Wikipedia. Uh... no. Just no. That... no. Oh 'Brim, what have they done to you?
hS
Which is to say, I think the second area of the game actually is the main character going south to Nurnen, not continuing to hang out in northwest Mordor. Ran out of space.
Which is to say, rather than being wholly set in book continuity or movieverse, it's sort of its own thing in the middle that picks and chooses elements from each to do what it will. I'm not sure I approve of that method but it's probably the one that gives them the most creative freedom. It's got some cool stuff that ties in with canon though, and really, is the domination of orcs all that different from what Sauron does with his Ring?
(That question becomes important, all I'll say.)
Celebrimbor of Hollin is obviously mentioned in LotR itself (he Drew These Signs, as I recall), and his story is detailed in the Appendices. The data Silm and Unfinished Tales add is that he was a son of Feanor, and/or a smith of Gondolin, and also discusses in more detail the history of Eregion. But as far as I know, Shadow of Mordor draws only on Appendix B.
So far as I know, there has only ever been one instance where a game company had access to a Silm licence - and they never produced a game out of it. Other than that, CT has kept a tight hold on it. All other game licences have been either Book or Movie - the latter being EA's licence, which means they can only use things which are in the movies, which is why the protagonists of The Third Age are actually briefly glimpsed background characters from the films.
This article does claim Shadow draws on Silm - but since it also claims Silm doesn't mention 'Brim's family, and that... well, this:
"As a member of the angelic race called the Maiar (the same race of Gandalf the Grey and Saruman the White), Sauron, who called himself Mairon thousands of years ago, had a love of all manner of craftsmanship and forging. Serving the Valar, the superior race residing in the world, Sauron was revered for his scientific knowledge, and was well-respected among his kind. However, open rebellion among the Maiar was stirring, and a Maiar named Melkor was its chief agitator. Eventually taking the name Morgoth, Melkor appealed to the Maiar to join his cause against the Valar. Believing that Morgoth could bring about an era of reformation and creativity, Sauron joined Morgoth and was corrupted by the fallen Maiar’s influence."
Ummmmm... right. Sure.
hS
But yeah, I'd remembered something about it drawing material from the appendices and such, I must've just remembered Celebrimbor when I said "doesn't it draw from the Silm a little." And of course I'd been vague in case anyone in here was interested in it, so as not to spoil them. :P
Though I'm not sure whether he considered himself such - he may well have disowned his family when Cel'n'Cur were kicked out of Nargothrond. I'd have to check.
hS
My study's done and I can consider other things.
I wonder if Tolkien's estate do have authority in Malaysia. As far as I can see, Malaysian filmmakers often rip off many popular characters and celebrities without being challenged by USA Copyright Laws.
If the Estate don't, then mwahah, mwahahahah, MWAHAHAHAHAHAHHH!!!
Also, there is a Rome:Total War mod based on Fourth Age. I wonder if we can make a movie based on that, since technically, it's not par of the Estate.
Well, first off, the Estate is under UK, not US copyright laws. ;)
Secondly, it looks like Malaysia is a signatory to the Berne Convention, which says (among other things) that copyright is automatic and extends 50 years after the author's death. So while you can find loads of ripped-off material there and elsewhere - I seem to recall some wildly popular Harry Potter knockoffs out of Russia? - it's not legal. And, well... even if it was, it would be immoral to steal Tolkien's creations, no?
The mod - well, the mod is based on Estate properties, so no, you couldn't do anything with that until you stripped out all the Tolkien-created stuff, such as the names. At which point, you're not making a Middle-earth film any more - just a generic high fantasy flick.
hS
We start in Gondor in 1940 of the Third Age. King Ondoher's daughter, Firiel (centre), is being courted by two men: Arvedui king[1] of Arnor2, and Earnil[3] Captain of Gondor (left). After some courtship, Firiel chooses Arvedui. Arvedui reforges the alliance between Arnor and Gondor, and he and the king each promise they will aid each other in time of need.
Cut forward four years, and Gondor is under siege by the Wainriders. Ondoher calls for aid from Arnor, but Arnor is itself under attack. Ondoher has to go into battle with only his own Northern Army of Gondor, though Captain Earnil is marching up from the south with the Southern Army. Ondoher fights a great battle on the Morranon - and loses, and is killed, along with his sons.[4] Earnil then arrives and leads the weaker Southern Army to a crushing victory in the Battle of the Camp, having previously destroyed the other army advancing from Harad.
With the throne of Gondor vacant, Arvedui tries to make a claim: he says that since his wife is by rights the heir, he should be called on to reunite the two kingdoms. Gondor, however, disagrees, and the Steward crowns the victorious general Earnil as king. Needless to say, this whole section is filled with interpersonal tension between our three leads. We can also make use of a couple of wizards here - say, Gandalf supporting Arvedui's cause, Saruman supporting Earnil's (because strength is the most important thing). Saruman, of course, is not yet evil - but that doesn't mean he's terribly nice.
[1] Actually his father is still king at this point, but since Araphant has no role to play in the story, it may be best to cut him. In the original, the marriage is a political one to seal an alliance between the two kingdoms - but romance is more fun.
[2] Actually Arthedain, the last of the three successor kingdoms to Arnor. I'm using 'Arnor' throughout for thematic reasons.
[3] Actually he has no such role in the story, but he's not specifically denied this spot. Besides, it makes the later conflict more personal.
[4] There's loads of stuff to work with here. Ondoher's second son was supposed to stay in Minas Anor as regent, but snuck out and joined the army of the proto-Rohirrim (ie, the Eotheod). He ended up getting killed in the Dead Marshes. If we establish him and his brother during the courtship stuff - Firiel is their sister, after all - we could do a lot with this.
Arnor is celebrating the birth[1] of Aranarth, son of Arvedui and Firiel - but even as the celebrations reach their height, word arrives that the forces of Angmar are on the move again, vaster than ever before seen. Arvedui has to set aside the celebrations and gather everything he can muster to face the Witch-King of Angmar.
He sends word to Gondor, but receives no reply. He calls on the elves of Lindon (under Cirdan), but Angmar manages to cut them off. The small army of Rivendell, being on the other side of the lines, makes it through, so Elrond is present[2] in Fornost for the siege. Also present are 500 hobbits of the Shire, who arrive unexpectedly and at the last moment[3] - and Gandalf.[4]
The forces of the Witch-King lock down around Fornost. The siege is long - about two years - but eventually Angmar breaks through the defences. Arvedui leaves his wife and son in Elrond's care and flees west and north, drawing the Witch-King's attention away from his heir. He takes the treasures of Arnor with him.
We have a fairly long semi-chase segment, with Arvedui briefly fighting on the North Downs, hiding in dwarven mines in the mountains, before ultimately being chased all the way up to the Ice-bay of Forochel. He hides with the Lossoth Ice-men until hope of rescue comes by way of a ship from Cirdan. The chief of the Ice-men begs him not to sail, but Arvedui ignores him - and the ship founders, and he drowns, with his two palantiri sinking around him.
[1] Actually his birth was decades before the Fall of Arthedain, but this is more interesting.
[2] There doesn't seem to be any information either way on this, but he's useful for plot purposes. Bear in mind Celebrian is still around at this point, so we could do something with her, Firiel, Arwen, and Aranarth. We should also send Glorfindel with them.
[3] This is needlessly dramatic, but fun.
[4] Whose role in this treatment is entirely made up. I guess he'd escape with Elrond later.
While the elves of Lindon are mourning the loss of Arvedui and the fall of Arnor, and preparing to face the advancing host of Angmar, suddenly a gigantic fleet from Gondor sails into the harbour. Earnur, son of the king, has led them to the aid of Arnor - but he's too late.
The armies of Gondor and Lindon ride out against the forces of the Witch-King and crush them utterly. Not a single orc survives. Along the way, they relieve the embattled host of Rivendell, and we get to see Glorfindel and Earnur fight the Witch-King, and drive him off - and we see Glorfindel utter the prophecy that 'not by the hand of man will he fall'. Earnur, humiliated by his defeat (the WK spooked his horse ^_^), refuses to listen.
With Arnor free but destroyed, Earnur returns to Gondor and his father. Very soon, though, messengers come from the north - from the Eotheod, and from Mirkwood (HI, LEGOLAS!): a black shadow passed through their lands, and they fear a new enemy has come, or an old one re-emerged.[1]
Suddenly, a massive host of orcs erupts from previously-empty Mordor, led by nine Black Riders - the leader of who is none other than the Witch-King of fallen Angmar. They burn their way through Ithilien, heading straight for Minas Ithil. King Earnil elects to meet them there, but in a horrifying battle he is defeated, and killed,[2] and Minas Ithil is taken. The city of the Moon is corrupted, and becomes Minas Morgul.
From his new stronghold, the Witch-King sends forth a mocking challenge to the newly-crowned Earnur, calling him a coward for failing in Arnor, and claiming his father died a coward's death - y'know, the usual stuff. Earnur wants to respond, but is persuaded against it by his steward - and then retreats to the tower where the palantir rests.
Some time later,[3] the WK repeats his challenge, and this time Earnur will not be dissuaded. He rides alone to Minas Morgal, passes through the gates - and we never see him again.
In Gondor, the people wait for a year for his return, with no luck. Eventually, after some debate, the royal council decide to appoint the Steward as ruler - but he insists on only taking the sceptre 'until the return of the king'.
The last lines in the film are the Steward - his name is Mardil - being asked 'What about the line of Isildur? What of the kings of Arnor?' He replies, 'That line died with Arvedui. There is no heir of Isildur now.' CUT to Rivendell, where we see Elrond smiling at the small boy Aranarth from the previous film. "Welcome, child. Welcome to Rivendell."
[1] These messengers are made up for the film, partly as an excuse to put Legolas in, and partly just for dramatic purposes.
[2] Holy Timeline Compression, Batman! In the book, the Nazgul return in 1980, they take Minas Ithil in 2002, and Earnil dies in 2043. However, since I can't find any reference to how he actually died, this seems good for film purposes.
[3] Seven years in canon, but I don't know what's best for the film. My image is of Earnur using the palantir in the meantime to mentally duel with the WK, and being weakened a la Denethor.
hS
Not for the inevitable badfic deluge/badfic updates, but for the amazing sense of nostalgia I get every time I hear Billy Boyd's song, and every time I'm reminded of just how rich and wonderful this world is and just --
Give me some tissues, please.
I'm reminded of two years ago, when I saw An Unexpected Journey, and the viewing experience started off like this:
Oh, cool, that must be Erebor, and Dale, and I guess that's Smaug, and-- OH GODS SHIRE THEME I'M BAAAAAAACK!
It's... it's going to be hard when it's over.
...
... still, means it's only a year until the Six Movie Extended Edition Marathon is possible! :D
hS
I've actually marathoned LotR with friends before. We started at 8am and ended at 5pm. We also had Lembas around the time the film was in Lorien. It was fantastic!
So what sort of lembas did you have? Tell me it wasn't Twinkies!
hS
Here's the recipe we used.
(Also can we get working on the Silmaril Sue mission this week? I don't have that many classes because of Thanksgiving break and I wanted to take advantage of it.)
Sounds nice!
(Urk! Pressure! Ehm, I'll see what I can do. I'm in the terminal stages of The Accidental NaNo, but hey, words is words, right?)
hS
The only problem was that one small bite was not enough to fill the stomach of a grown man. But then again I'm probably a hobbit (I'm the hobbit of my friends group anyway), so that might explain things.
(I don't want to force you to write for anything you don't want to work on right now! I'm just hoping to be able to make some headway mostly because of my free time and my desire to see Anneliese shrivelling in the Void or something. I'm working on the mission that sends E and C into the Anneliese fic as well, so it's not like I have nothing to do. Though it's pretty tricky writing the Calaquendi agents.
Speaking of snooty Elves, how would Ramwe sound like if he could be translated? Naergondir and Gurnirel sound overly formal and quite posh, so I was curious.)
... if you've got a really big mouth?
"One small bite (from a dragon) is enough to fill the stomach of a grown man! Provided you get it out of the dragon first."
(No, I've no problem writing it - I just, uh, haven't been.)
(Ramwe would usually sound irritated. His two recorded sentences are things like “Thausâ labmêu de ho waghtâi lasû ni ho!” - 'Your foul language soils my ears'. Beyond that, I'm not really sure yet)
hS
...before I decided I was fine and should lay off the Lembas for a bit.
Also it's really nice with milk, but I don't think the Fellowship had any of that on hand. Shame, really. -snickers at the thought of a Tenth Walker Mary Sue eating Lembas with milk and getting odd stares from everyone else-
(Well if you can, at least get them to the chapter that E and C appear in so I don't have to wildly speculate on the doc as to how their entrance is going to play out.)
(It's impressive that even Ramwe has irritated the Calaquendi agents. Dawn and I were laughing about pots and kettles there.)