How it works

Subject: How it works
Author: Phobos
Posted on: 2014-11-08 22:02:00 UTC

God Tier deaths are permanent if the death was either Just or Heroic. So, it only counts if you were actively being a Hero or a Villain.

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Homestuck discussion thread: damage control edition by SeaTurtle on 2014-11-08 02:36:00 UTC Reply

I'm assuming you've all caught up with the most recent pages so spoilers, naturally.

And then there were three left alive. Well, six if you count the live trolls. You can really feel this comic lurching towards the endgame, right? Heroes dropping like flies, the villains scoring a major victory, plans going awry, confusion and tragedy among the heroes' ranks, and the whole session looking doomed. Everything looks like it's set up for John to retcon everything using Lord English's treasure... but isn't that too obvious a solution? After reading Homestuck you start to get paranoid and wonder what kind of curveballs Hussie can throw at you.

But I digress. Two humans left alive, no Time player, no Space player, Seers are down, general inability of the universe to keep down the clown (Gamzee is not dead, I can feel it in my bones), Dirk is MIA, nobody left to negotiate the release of the Genesis Frog with Echidna, Maid of Life is permadead, B2 Earth is stuck in Jade's sylladex with no hope of redeployment and worst of all the Mayor is still MIA. We know that this mess will somehow straighten itself out-- universe C and the rise of Lord English guarantees it-- the big question is how. A two-man team (three if John and Roxy manage to find Dirk and to get him out of his funk) is probably not strong enough to bring down )(IC in a straight-up strife and there is still Lord English to take care of.

Fellow Homestuck readers, what are your theories for the endgame?

Personally, I think that there are going to be some last-minute additions to the team from Aradia and Sollux: the former as a replacement Time player to prevent further doomed timeline mishaps and the latter as a guide for this session that seems... doomed to fail. The Seer of Light is dead and we need another guide who specializes in Doom. Maybe Roxy can even conjure up a Quest Cocoon for Sollux to God Tier in. Just not sure how Sollux can be convinced to go back to the B2 session. Or how the two can actually travel there. Maybe this is a bad theory after all... hm.

As for Terezi... she might join in the final push. Her character arc is still not complete. I'm guessing that there is still some more stuff that she needs to do while she's still alive but I just don't know how she's going to do it with the bazillion fractures she probably has and the zillion of litres of blood she lost.

We know John does some time-travelling (as seen when he stops himself from interfering with Dave and Jade's rooftop duel) so we can at least be sure that there is a plan afoot.

Also: Caliborn seems pitifully weak. Even if he managed to walk the path of the conqueror and God Tier, he was pretty much slapped around by plain ol' John [S] GAME OVER. When we see him draw the stage on some blueprint, it became real elsewhere (in the Oubliette right next to Calliope). Could it be that Lord English is actually a come-to-life version of the Mary-Sue OC that Caliborn drew and subsequently possessed with his soul or something?

A question. by Rats on 2014-11-08 21:21:00 UTC Reply

Aren't God Tiers not perma-dead if the death is heroic? Or am I wrong?

Other way around. by SeaTurtle on 2014-11-08 22:10:00 UTC Reply

God Tier auto-rez only works if a player is killed doing something not heroic or if the player in question doesn't deserve the death. For example:

A God Tier Mage of Void is exploring a cave for loot. He loses his footing next to a crevasse, bashes his head on a rock and falls 200 metres to his death. Was it heroic? Definitely not-- "undignified" might be a better term for the event. Was it a just death? Nope, not that either. Therefore auto-rez will kick in after a while and the Mage's crumpled remains will straighten themselves out, heal all wounds, and reanimate. The Mage will then stagger to the exit, feeling kinda freaked out that he just had a ~~near~~death experience and berating himself over a easily preventable death.
How it works by Phobos on 2014-11-08 22:02:00 UTC Reply

God Tier deaths are permanent if the death was either Just or Heroic. So, it only counts if you were actively being a Hero or a Villain.

Oh. :( by Rats on 2014-11-09 19:51:00 UTC Reply

Well. That destroys any hope that I had.

Think of it this way: by SeaTurtle on 2014-11-09 21:20:00 UTC Reply

Hussie has split up his heroes. On one side, we have John, Roxy, and maybe Terezi and Dirk left to deal with the mess left by )(IC. On the other, we have the dead who might try to work with Calliope and the other dead trolls to foil Lord Enligh's plans in the Furthest Ring. No, they may no see each other again, but they're still working together towards a common goal.

Dream bubbles will probably become the main theatre of events for the following acts. The dead characters will fill each other in on what happened, come up with a plan, talk to the live players who cross their dream bubbles, and push towards the endgame.

Besides, Rose is with Kanaya now. That makes me feel a little better.

I'd say that Dirk is definitely still a viable contender. by Rats on 2014-11-09 22:37:00 UTC Reply

He just seems like Angsty McGee right now, and I'd say that he has the right to be, considering all that just went down.
Actually, because of his behavior, I'd wager he tried to prevent it somehow and failed. Now both Dirk and Dave see themselves as failed heroes. :(

I've seen a theory somewhere that all that happened is actually a failed timeline, which is what Aranea apparently hoped to create; I don't have a link to the exact pesterlog but it was during a conversation between Meenah and Aranea when Aranea was discussing her plan.

My [VERY SPOILERY] thoughts by Techno-Dann on 2014-11-08 05:31:00 UTC Reply

Remember this scene?

Specifically, the line about

DAVE: but if it turns out you just created a doomed timeline and were all going to die im gonna be hella mad

Yeah. This is looking an awful lot like a doomed timeline. Planets are getting mashed together, and pretty much everyone is dying.

So there's my theory.
My spoilery thoughts. by Neshomeh on 2014-11-08 04:05:00 UTC Reply

I have nothing as coherent as actual theories, but here's what's going through my head:

1. Roxy has crazy-powerful Void abilities. Couldn't she theoretically utilize those to conjure up life where there is none, and bring people back from the dead?

2. Dirk. What is even up with that? Did he self-destruct? (I don't actually remember why things are all pixelated, except maybe it was something to do with Lord English maybe? This is why I will never come up with any theories.)

3. Do we know for sure that Lord English is Caliborn and not Jake English? I'm not at all sure how that would work, but it's something Phobos and I have talked about a little bit.

4. Gamzee is definitely not out of the picture yet. He's the most important character in the comic, after all, and we saw him using a computer with the Felt, buying stuff with Calcoins. Also, Phobos has a theory that his chaotic Bard powers basically let him use everyone's abilities, so he can travel through time.

... That's all I've got. I'm bad at this game. ^_^;

~Neshomeh

Late reply, sorry. by SeaTurtle on 2014-11-09 21:48:00 UTC Reply

1) That seems a little more like the domain of a Life player; Jane's abilities were supposed to cover this role but the Condesce had other plans. However! It appears that the Ring of Life is lost in the fires of LOFAF. This will allow the Ring of Void to be found. Such a powerful artefact in the hands of a Void player might be enough to allow Roxy to conjure up multiple copies of Life Rings... maybe?

2) It looks like he was simply obscured by the glitches much like someone would disappear under a wave at the sea. The glitches are in fact caused by Caliborn. He stuffed the Act 6 Act 6 cartridge full of special stardust and slotted it into the computer to advance the plot. Amusingly enough, this problem can be solved by blowing wind into the session, NES cartridge style. ~~John confirmed for MVP~~

3) Aranea confirmed that Caliborn is Lord English. That being said, how Caliborn chose the name is something we'll have to wait and find out...

4) (And replying to Phobos) Gamzee is definitely not dead, I agree, but I don't think that he God Tiered. If I recall correctly, if either the dream self or the real self God Tiers, both personas are merged and respawn either on Skaia or at the location of the quest bed. If this is correct and Gamzee did God Tier, then we wouldn't have the double Gamzee shenanigans going on.

3 & 4 by Phobos on 2014-11-10 01:16:00 UTC Reply

3) Aranea definitely believes that Lord English and Caliborn are the same person. However, despite what people may say about her, she doesn't actually know everything.

4) We know that dying on a quest bed on your own planet acts like that. However, we've seen the Prospit/Derse slabs react differently. Now, the problem is that we have never seen someone die on the slab when both their original self and dream self are alive. So my theory is untestable, unless someone comes out and tells us that Gamzee did it.

-Phobos
OT random thought. by Huinesoron on 2014-11-09 21:57:00 UTC Reply

Do you lot realise the massive extent to which this thread sounds like a game of Mornington Crescent to we who don't know what you're talking about? It's hilarious. I guess that's the case for any conversation about an unfamiliar subject, but far more so when the topic has a whole heap of technical vocabulary. Masses of Capitalised Nouns make for a gloriously nonsensical read, if you don't know a thing about it.

Gasp! The Ring of Life is lost in the fires of LOFAF, and so the Ring of Void can be found, and if I move to Waterloo International, I can call a Vernon Switch and teleport Caliborn to White City... ;)

hS

(I'm going to be seriously disappointed if this doesn't lead to a Homestuck-plays-Mornington-Crescent skit from one of you - which, naturally, I won't be able to make head nor tail of. ~hS)

Much how I feel about it too... by JulyFlame on 2014-11-10 23:47:00 UTC Reply

It comes to a whole new level when someone tries to explain it to you in person.

I actually even read a good portion before I gave up!

Even Silmarillion flailing from you or, say, FractalDawn makes more sense to me despite having never actually read it (or having finished LotR ever, for that matter).
Not gonna lie... by SeaTurtle on 2014-11-09 23:03:00 UTC Reply

...now that I think of it, the entire Homestuck universe seems like a great big game of Mornington Crescent except the objective of the game is for your team (ideally all God Tiers by the end of the game) to get a perfectly bred Genesis Frog to a properly prototyped Skaia before the Reckoning and to defeat the Black King so that Skaia is ready to accommodate the Speaker of the Vast Croak so that the victorious team can enter the universe contained inside the Frog and reside there as Gods.

Quite simple, really.

The thing is... by Iximaz on 2014-11-10 11:44:00 UTC Reply

I think the whole 'being totally confused by the fandom' thing can happen with any fandom. It's just easier for it to happen with Homestuck. I could only get through Acts 1-4 and about halfway through Act 5 before I gave up. I couldn't tell what the flippty flapjack was happening to save my life.

Maybe I'll give it another shot.

I think the difference. by Huinesoron on 2014-11-10 12:15:00 UTC Reply

I do! I think the difference all the time.

Er... hang on a minute, resetting.

I think the difference is that a lot of the fandom jargon for Homestuck is English words with Random Capitals. If you're confused by, say, Dior Eluchil leaving Doriath by way of Neldoreth to visit Gil-Galad on the Isle of Balar, you just write it off as 'high fantasy names blah'. But words like 'Mage of Void'... you can understand the words, they're just thrown together in ways that make no sense. Rather than floating through in a haze of blissful incomprehension, you stand there going 'what? But that- what? How? Huh?'

Also, if Dior's heading to the Havens by way of Neldoreth, he's gotten seriously turned round.

hS

You mean... by Phobos on 2014-11-10 15:10:00 UTC Reply

...if I told you that, "carcinoGeneticist and twinArmageddons were trying to find arsenicCatnip's Shipping Wall on LOLCAT to see what the Rogue of Heart's thoughts were on the viability of a Moirallegiance," it would all sound like gibberish? Well, it shouldn't. It's very straight forward. All I said was that "Karkat and Sollux went to the Land of Little Cubes and Tea to see if Nepeta thinks they should have a conciliatory redrom." Simple.

-Phobos, who is fully aware of how jargony the Homestuck fandom can be.

Allow me to explain by Phobos on 2014-11-08 05:41:00 UTC Reply

Since a couple of these theories started with me, I can fill in the blanks.

3) The theory that Caliborn is not Lord English. As has been pointed out already, Caliborn is a wimp. Seriously. Can you see that petulant little wuss turning into the scourge of the universe? Also, Caliborn can't shut his mouth for more than three consecutive seconds, where Lord English has only really spoken on one occasion. They just do not seem like the same guy, at all.

Now, I don't know if there actually is any connection to Jake, other than the name, and I don't have an actual theory for who might turn into LE (at least not one that I am happy with).

4) Dear, sweet Gamzee. Not gonna lie, he is my favorite character. Both of him. That's right, I believe that there are two Gamzees running around.

How does that make any sense? Allow me to kick the wicked educating you.

It all comes down to this: Andrew Hussie says he is "personally not aware of a single timeline in which this codpiece packing moron dies". I take that to mean that both Gamzee and his dream self are running around somewhere. This is backed up by the fact that no dream Gamzee shows up for the mini-strife.

"But, Derrick," I can hear you saying. "If Gamzee and his dream self are both alive, then where has his dream self been hiding?" First off, how do you know my name? Second, that is a good question. The answer is, of course, in plain sight.

Consider what we know:
-Gamzee appears one of two ways: In shadow, where he is angry and talks in the usual dark tones, or in God Tier regalia, where he is happy and never says anything but honk (the narrator does all his talking for him).
-We get conflicting accounts of who and what Gamzee is. The most notable is whether he is God Tier or not.
-Gamzee claims to be both of the Mirthful Messiahs
-Caliborn can't kill him, try as he might.
-He is a rascally clown. This is very important.

Gamzee is the dark one who talks. He is not a God Tier, and he is only one of the Mirthful Messiahs. The happy one who doesn't talk is Gamzee's dream self. He IS a God Tier (which is why Caliborn can't kill him) and is the other Mirthful Messiah.

How did this come to be? Well, that has an especially easy explanation. Gamzee is who he has always been (moreso since he ran out of slime pies), and his dream self became a God Tier when Bec Noir destroyed the Troll's Prospit. He was napping on his stone slab in the core of the moon, which allowed him to Ascend (they do love to nap in uncomfortable places).

So, where do we see the different Gamzees in action?

Dream Gamzee took a meteor trip through a Skaia portal to Earth and became the guardian of the Cherubs in their infancy, and a guide for Caliborn later.

Gamzee took a trip through time (using Aradia's crystal time tables) to guide the kids and prototype the Trolls. He met up with and talked to John, which is what John doesn't want to bring up with Terezi when they meet up on LOLAR.

So, there's that. Now let me get into the theory that Gamzee is every class and every aspect, by nature of being a Bard.

I can make a case for Gamzee acting as just about every class and every aspect at one point or another in the comic.

Thief of Void and Prince of Light- He stole Equius's blood and used it to redact the knowledge in Callie's book.

Knight of Heart and Witch of Mind - He has turned Karkat's feelings for Terezi against him, and has manipulated Terezi's decisions.

Heir of Time - He "inherited" the time-tables from Aradia to travel forward in time.

Page of Breath and Seer of Doom - He seems to know when things are going to go down, and he always knows what to do.

In the end, all of this will serve to bring the group together when they need it the most (Maid of Blood) to fulfill the Bard of Rage's inverse goal, to mend the path to victory (Sylph of Hope).

I could go on, but it is late and I am tired. Maybe more later.

-Phobos, spending way too much time on theories since 1986