My reaction/questions.

Subject: My reaction/questions.
Author: PoorCynic
Posted on: 2014-10-25 23:28:00 UTC

I've been looking forward to seeing this piece in its full for quite some time. Some of the things I've been planning to write with the DIAU definitely play into the concept of the multiverse and alternate timelines. Plus, it's a kind of world-building that's not typically seen -- or at least, that I've not typically seen. The timeline tree was greatly appreciated.

I have some questions about the document and what it talks about in regards to the PPC (since this is supposed to be an in-universe thing). What sort of publicity would a document like this have? I ask because it talks very frankly about things like the Sundering, which I would think might be the sort of thing to cause a hubbub in the PPC if it were widely known about. My assumption would be that, if it isn't kept classified for reasons like previously mentioned, it has the same sort of circulation that any sort of overly technical dissertation would have: very little apart from a small circle of experts.

Related to the previous, what sort of publicity would alternate timelines and multiverses have in the PPC at large? Are they widely known phenomena or just figures of speculation?

Finally, can I make mention of this document and its contents in a future mission (with proper attribution, of course)?

Good stuff! Take a bow, you've earned it.

PC

P.S. Might I suggest Doc Who for the Noirverse version of Doctor Who?

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LotR/Men in Black mission plug! by Huinesoron on 2014-10-22 09:09:00 UTC Reply

... and it's not a Driftwood mission!

Yes, for numerous reasons, including a whole day with no internet access, a busy weekend, and certain moral quandaries surrounding clubbing little girls with DVD cases (now resolved, don't fret), I do not have a PPC: Driftwood mission to release today. Of course, I never said I'd be doing them weekly anyway, but, y'know.

Instead, I can release the next report from DOGA's most currentest agent, Huinesoron:

Empire State of Mind

The preamble can be blamed on Neshomeh and JulyFlame, or possibly they can be thanked for it: you decide!

As always, reviews are very welcome - and if you see any errors, let me know and I'll fix them!

hS

Uh... by son_of_heaven176 on 2014-10-24 02:42:00 UTC Reply

I took a look at the badfic, and maybe I missed something, but I did not see how you came to the conclusion that the "You" character was Arwen. It seemed like "You" was some random half-Elf that dated Elrond. Could you please clarify?

Two facts: by Huinesoron on 2014-10-24 07:43:00 UTC Reply

1/ She's a half-elf, of which there are... two female ones? (Or three if you count Luthien, but 'half-elf' usually implies 'and half-mortal').

2/ She 'dates' 'high kings of half the world', which sounds like Aragorn and... no-one else. The High Kings of the Noldor ruled fairly small areas.

Oh, and:

3/ She's explicitly stated to be in the LotR books. 'If you read this, you'll learn she's a half-elf'. Name the half-elves in The Lord of the Rings. ;)

hS

Answering question number 3 by Desdendelle on 2014-10-24 16:36:00 UTC Reply

Lessie: Elrond, Eladan, Elrohir, Arwen. Aragorn isn't half-Elf but he has Elf blood.

Come on, you can do better than that. ;) by Huinesoron on 2014-10-24 16:48:00 UTC Reply

In the 'elven blood' category, we also have Imrahil of Dol Amroth (probably) and Finduilas his sister. In 'actual half-Elves', we have Eldarion son of Elessar and Arwen, and Luthien the Nightingale. I know, she doesn't actually appear - but she does have a whole song about her. ;) Oh, and of course Earendil - he does appear, though only at a distance.

The question of whether you count the mentions of Elros in the appendices... well. Let's leave that open.

(And presumably, most of the Dunedain have some elven blood... not sure 'Halbarad Half-Elven' would fly, though)

Uhm... have I missed anyone out?

hS

Hrm by Desdendelle on 2014-10-24 18:33:00 UTC Reply

I didn't count the appendices, so Elros, Finduilas and Eldarion don't count. Imrahil is a question mark (probably) so I didn't count him, either. Luthien doesn't appear, per se (because being sung about isn't an appearance, that's being mentioned). Earendil - where does he appear? Galadriel's mirror?

In the night sky? by Huinesoron on 2014-10-24 19:10:00 UTC Reply

He's the Evening And Morning Star these days, remember. Frodo gets a bottle of his light. I can't cite a specific page where they actually see the star, but it's definitely there in some scenes.

And if you try and exclude him on the grounds that all they see is the light of the Silmaril bound on his brow, you're going to have to exclude Sauron as a character, too. ;)

hS

Sauron? I don't believe he exists. (nm) by Phobos on 2014-10-24 19:18:00 UTC Reply
Not true by son_of_heaven176 on 2014-10-24 19:13:00 UTC Reply

since Sauron is Maia, not half-elf.

Or so they say. by Huinesoron on 2014-10-24 20:05:00 UTC Reply

But yes - and if Des claims that Earendil isn't in the book as a character because we only see his gem, he'll also have to say Sauron isn't in the book as a character - which would be an impressive feat for the primary antagonist. ^-^

hS

Actually... by Desdendelle on 2014-10-24 20:24:00 UTC Reply

There's this scene near the the end - after Gollum gets deep-fried - that you actually see Sauron-as-Barad-Dur, so yes, he makes an appearance. Unlike Earendil.

>.> You win this round, Bond. (nm) by Huinesoron on 2014-10-25 13:32:00 UTC Reply

I haz wone teh internetz :D by Desdendelle on 2014-10-25 15:05:00 UTC Reply

I demand tea. Cookies, too. But mainly tea.

Re: mission by doctorlit on 2014-10-22 20:14:00 UTC Reply

So, we finally have a Men in Black mission! And I am immemsely amused that neuralyzers got to play a starring role in it, considering they're the one aspect of MiB that the PPC has featured for so long.

This mission is cool just because of how different it is. A Finance mission, holey moley! I love Sambar. He's just soooo focused on his job, he can't see anything else; he reminds me of me! And he was perfect to throw at Agent Huinesoron right after he started trying to be less rude, because anyone would feel like being rude to Sambar.

The mission was a great choice as an acquisition mission, because of all the pointless crossover stuff thrown in. The main focus of the badfic was so surreal and random, I also like that you did something more creative than assassinate replacement!Arwen, because for once, I don't think it would have felt like it fit the crime as well.

You did a great job of keeping Agent K in character throughout, as well. His completely nonplussed confidence fits perfectly with his portrayal in the movie. (Man, can you imagine how clunky the narration would get if the old DAVD agents with the letters at the end of their names had an MiB mission?

"Quick, K!" whispered K. "Go get K, we need to follow K now!

"I'm just going home," said Delta V.)
And one other release: it's Multiverse Theory again! by Huinesoron on 2014-10-22 16:41:00 UTC Reply

Time and Motion Study
An EXAMINATION of the current state of MULTIVERSE THEORY and related topics,
by the Division of Applied-and-theoretical Multiversal Physics

Yes, it's that same document I've thrown about a few times before, now with even more bizarre diagrams and opaque text! But, at last, it's finished. The three sections cover three different aspects of time-and-space:

*Space And is Multiverse Theory; it discusses the nature of a single multiverse, then goes on to describe the history of theories regarding the multiple multiverses out there.

*Relative Dimensions is a discussion of how PPC HQ fits into the Prime Multiverse. It also includes a lengthy aside on disguises, canon cloaking, and SEP fields.

*In Time is entirely new, and is basically a description of the formation of alternate timelines of the PPC. These exist in the Prime Multiverse - they have the same origin as the PPC, and the same World One - but are different timelines.

*Multiversal Atlas is the last section, and lists all the multiverses and alternate timelines I could remember being discussed. 'Attested' means they've actually interacted with the Prime PPC; 'rumoured' is other things people have written which haven't (yet) had that interaction. A bit cheeky, I know, but I wanted to make the list both in-universe and complete.

An important note: this is an in-universe document. It's not necessarily right. In fact, in one place, it's dead wrong: it makes no mention of our world. In fact, to be truly complete, you need an extra layer in between: our world creates various 'Real Worlds' containing fictionalised versions of us - such as the people behind the TCDA Board, or those people Narto met, which each create their own 'World One', which forms the heart of a multiverse. It's complicated by the fact that our world stands both as the creator of a bunch of 'real world's, and as the direct creator of the PPC's World One - but anyway, they don't know any of that, so they won't discuss it. ;)

One final note: the Division of Applied-and-theoretical Multiversal Physics has never been mentioned before; I'll be introducing it properly in a story I have vaguely planned. It's basically HQ's physical sciences department (since DoSAT is more engineering); whether it's a division of DoSAT or DMSE&R is an open question. ;)

hS

PS: Yes, it's a horribly-dense pseudo-scientific dissertation. That's sort of the point. ^-^ ~hS

Just for kicks - a completely different theory. by Huinesoron on 2014-10-27 16:15:00 UTC Reply

This theory is based on something suggested by Neshomeh on the wiki's Multiverse Theory talk page. I've expanded it slightly, given it a diagram and a name, and plan to include it on the revised version of that page. But for your entertainment, I figured I'd also put it up here.

(Note: for the wiki article, a 3-D model of time is used: 'depth-time' is your past-future line, while 'height' and 'width-time' are defined differently depending on the theory)

The Nested Elongated Superstring Hypothesis visualises each canon universe as plane in two temporal dimensions. Its ‘depth-time’ axis corresponds to its past and future, while its ‘width-time’, as in Temporal Axis Theory, is probability. Alternate universes of a canon are placed along the width-time axis, while the various canon universes are viewed as being ‘stacked’ in height-time.

The key difference from Temporal Axis Theory is that the PPC and its alternates are seen as identical planes, but rotated to intersect the ‘canon’ planes. The height-time axis of the canon ‘stack’ corresponds to the depth-time axis of a PPC-type universe; in other words, accessing a different canon is simply a matter of travelling through time. This is a simple task in PPC HQ, though it does explain the generally difficult nature of timekeeping in the PPC.

HQ’s width-time axis - the probability regularly manipulated by portals - corresponds directly to that of the canon universes: probability manipulation allows direct access to fanfics. Alternate PPCs - ‘alternate multiverses’ - are separated along their own height-time axes, which PPC technology is not able to transit through.

The PPC height-time axis corresponds to the canonical depth-time axis. A semi-cyclic temporal model is utilised by NESH, in which canon worlds reach their end and repeat, but with differences. These differences explain the ‘mirror’ nature of the canons of the Mirror Multiverse, as well as the near-impossibility of travelling to alternate multiverses: to reach them would require agents to pass through the end of one universe and the beginning of another. The formation of Bridges is seen as an act of shortening the length of the temporal loop, as was observed in the ‘Suedom’ incident.

Discuss?

hS
My reaction/questions. by PoorCynic on 2014-10-25 23:28:00 UTC Reply

I've been looking forward to seeing this piece in its full for quite some time. Some of the things I've been planning to write with the DIAU definitely play into the concept of the multiverse and alternate timelines. Plus, it's a kind of world-building that's not typically seen -- or at least, that I've not typically seen. The timeline tree was greatly appreciated.

I have some questions about the document and what it talks about in regards to the PPC (since this is supposed to be an in-universe thing). What sort of publicity would a document like this have? I ask because it talks very frankly about things like the Sundering, which I would think might be the sort of thing to cause a hubbub in the PPC if it were widely known about. My assumption would be that, if it isn't kept classified for reasons like previously mentioned, it has the same sort of circulation that any sort of overly technical dissertation would have: very little apart from a small circle of experts.

Related to the previous, what sort of publicity would alternate timelines and multiverses have in the PPC at large? Are they widely known phenomena or just figures of speculation?

Finally, can I make mention of this document and its contents in a future mission (with proper attribution, of course)?

Good stuff! Take a bow, you've earned it.

PC

P.S. Might I suggest Doc Who for the Noirverse version of Doctor Who?

Two answers. by Huinesoron on 2014-10-27 10:37:00 UTC Reply

Which may both be true. The first is that this document may well be from the future. Actually, in one sense it definitely is - it discusses the Catastrophe Theory timeline, which won't spin off until 2015 according to Phobos. So at the very least, it's from next year. The other reason to think this is that it discusses things that, as you say, shouldn't be known - particulary, as of Triple Prime, Gaspard is actively working to keep the Flowers from finding out the details of the Sundering. This document would then have to post-date some event which rendered that information irrelevant - possibly Oopart's actions next year, possibly something else.

The other answer is that this is, as you say, a technical document. Most agents aren't going to read it; it may even be only an internal document in the DAMP. Doesn't mean any given agent can't find it, of course.

The out-of-universe answer is, of course, that I wanted to write a theory which would account for what we know - and we know more than the PPC does. If you like, you can imagine that this is the 'slightly enhanced' version of the document, with another copy - one which doesn't specifically mention various unknown timelines - being the actual, IU version.

Knowledge of alternate timelines: hrm. I think at least the Mirror Multiverse is fairly well-known - we had 'good Daleks' from there helping out during the 2008 crises, so it'd be hard to miss. And since Lux is quite a sociable creature, I'd imagine her origin is also commonly known. So at least the basics of Multiverse Theory are out there.

Alternate timelines, less so. The only people to have travelled between them are Lou's family, and they don't talk much. ;) So I'm not sure the general body of agents would have any knowledge of it - though they could of course theorise anyway. They actually do have one bit of evidence - a video from the Arthurverse made it into the Multiverse Monitor - but it got subsumed by conspiracy theories, so is presumably ignored. ;)

Phew - that was a lot of words. Sorry! You can definitely mention the document in your stories - I'm going to integrate it into the Wiki at some point, too. Doc Who is now listed. And, just for giggles, I've added something I just realised: we-the-Board have actually written the 'Author' worlds for one, two, and three of the other Multiverses.

hS

Typo detected. by Hieronymus Graubart on 2014-10-25 09:46:00 UTC Reply

It is rumoured that agents focussing on 'acting normal' can be masked even from Mary-Sues be the NP field, but this has not yet been proven.

HG

Thanks! Fixed. (nm) by Huinesoron on 2014-10-27 10:24:00 UTC Reply

Infinite recursion of World Ones! Painful. (nm) by Ekyl on 2014-10-23 19:08:00 UTC Reply
Catastrophe Theory by Phobos on 2014-10-22 19:02:00 UTC Reply

I'm not sure rumored is the right word for it. Since the story is based on the actual Theory, I think "hypothosized by unbalanced individuals" might be more appropriate. Who knows, maybe this crazy story about how it was subverted by means of time travel is just their way of explaining why it didn't happen when they said it would. That it hasn't happened might even constitute proof of its existance, for some of these individuals.

Also, it occurs to me that I should get some things up on the Wiki about CT.

-Phobos, who might decide to take on Cycle Theory next?

I have some Cycle Theory ideas but look forwards to yours. (nm) by Ekyl on 2014-10-23 19:06:00 UTC Reply
Hmm. by Huinesoron on 2014-10-23 09:09:00 UTC Reply

So does that suggest/imply/outright state that something relevant to Catastrophe Theory occurred in 2010? Let's see... from 'The End is Night' I see that Oopart joined 'nearly ten years' ago, and people were still talking about the assassination of the Board at that time. The earliest event that's been linked to that assassination was the poisoning a week earlier... and you do list the setting as 'Ten Years Hence'. Was the assassination actually in 2010 (thus 'for a given value of ten')? Was the graph a couple of years off? Or was... something else?

I also note that the Sue invasion happened at least 'several years' ago, which is when Amy was lost. Oh, but I see from 'Bound and Gagged' that the PFO clumps the assassination and the occupation together in time, suggesting they happened close together... so is the 'Catastrophe' of the title both of those, in 2010? 2012? Some other year?

Yes, of course I'm planning a chart.

hS

I can't tell you everything, obviously. by Phobos on 2014-10-23 18:50:00 UTC Reply

However, I can clear a few things up.

The moratorium on Emergencies slowed the progression of the theorized Catastrophe. It should have happened around 2010, as you note. As it stands, the moratorium granted a brief reprieve, but things got rolling again after a just a few years.

The Assassination happened in, more or less, the Present. Call it 2015 HST (though I personally don't put much stock in HST) and The End Is Nigh happens 'round about 2024-ish. You are right that the poisoning happens about a week before the Assassination. However, the Invasion happens a few months later. There were other events in those intervening months that I won't get in to, here. The PFO lumps them together into "Things that happened around the same time that left me in charge".

Also, Amy was lost 'several years' ago but not during the Invasion. She was lost during the Occupation. Probably 2019 HST, if you want me to be more specific.

As to what happened in 2010...well...I got permission. Coincidence? I think not.

I look forward to seeing what your chart looks like.

-Phobos

Aaaaand, timeline chart! by Huinesoron on 2014-10-24 10:21:00 UTC Reply

As far as I'm aware, that's all the timelines. There are certainly non-PoD time travel incidents missing - the Notary jumped back a few months at one point, as I recall - but the key stuff should all be on there.

Well, technically not. The Inevitable Mobius Double Reach-around technically created over a dozen timelines (not the full 20, since at least some of the Skeets and Amys were from different points on the same timelines), and involved travel between timelines as well as back along them. Given, however, that we know next to nothing of these timelines, except that they all involved a Sundering, and given that the end result of all their meddling was the Triple Prime timeline, from which a single team travelled back to see Gaspard (and thus, apparently, create the Catastrophe Theory timeline, which ironically had an earlier End of the PPC...)... yeah, I went with just listing them as one divergence.

Obviously I don't yet know that the various travellers will prevent their target timelines coming to be - but I'm going to assume it anyway. ;)

hS
Oh, well, HST. by Huinesoron on 2014-10-24 09:15:00 UTC Reply

My theory is that HST is basically a statistical process: whenever the Flowers (presumably there's someone in charge of this, but I can't think who it'd be - Finance, only I don't think the Morning Glory is interested/knows) note that the majority of contacts with World One - new badfics, new agents, new canon releases - are coming from a given month-and-year, they switch the HST date. Since agents are in and out on missions, don't have particularly synchronised timelines, and don't have a day-night cycle to go by, well, if Huinesoron's October '14 lasts 24 days, and Kaitlyn's lasts 35, who's going to notice?

The only time it becomes properly synchronised down at the daily level is during Events and Emergencies. Since everyone can agree on when, say, the Mary-Sue Invasion of '08 occurred in their own personal timelines, the Flowers can slap a date on it and say Look, we have a proper, functioning dating system! What's that? What's today's date? Er... isn't that your console beeping?

Speaking of Emergencies... the way you're writing this seems to suggest that the moratorium is an actual, in-universe Thing. Since I'm not sure what it would be (other than a stern warning to Not Do Anything Dramatic, Please), I'm unclear as to how that would work.

Of course, all of this is irrelevant - what I really needed was the year 2015, which I now have. Thanks!

hS

Funny story, back when I fist joined... by Iximaz on 2014-10-24 22:47:00 UTC Reply

I thought HST stood for 'Huinesoron Time'. I have no idea why. Go on and grin, hS, I know you want to.

:D by Huinesoron on 2014-10-27 16:18:00 UTC Reply

hST: the amount of time that will actually pass between when hS says something will happen 'soon', and when it actually happens. Ranges from one week (the spacing between Driftwood missions) to... eight years and counting (the writing of Agent Kayleigh's Dragon Fever mission). Almost as incomprehensible as HQ's timeline.

hS

I suppose that makes sense by Phobos on 2014-10-24 15:24:00 UTC Reply

Maybe it is something that someone in Legal does. I don't know.

And I write like the Moratorium is a thing in-universe because it is. It just doesn't really have a name. I don't think anyone (except those directly involved) noticed it in-universe or, if they did, cared enough to name it. Don't worry, there's a story there.

-Phobos

There are some issues in the multiverse Atlas section. by Sergio Turbo on 2014-10-22 17:21:00 UTC Reply

The Mirror entry is missing a good chunk, and the Magical Girl one has "amine" instead of "anime"

(Also, in the time travel part I kinda expected Agent!Sergio and Nikki to appear, since you mentione the Blackout, as the failing shields had misplaced them by several months and they had managed to get back to their time)

Fixed and fixed. by Huinesoron on 2014-10-23 08:58:00 UTC Reply

And fixed, actually, since Sergio's experience is the only travel to the future that I can think of, barring a couple of people going through the Door to the Future, and Doc and Vania's viewing of future TV. So thanks! Now there's another unanswered question on the list. ;)

hS

You're welcome. by Sergio Turbo on 2014-10-23 19:15:00 UTC Reply

This is becoming a great article - keep it up!

I enjoyed this! by Iximaz on 2014-10-22 12:14:00 UTC Reply

SPOILERS

The end part especially, when Agent hS accidentally wiped all of Arwen... replacement... thing. (Seriously, she was sleeping with Elrond? 'Scuse me, gonna go jump in the Fountain of Bleepka.)

The storage room full of other canon materials and whatnot was especially interesting; I'll have to go check out that abandoned TARDIS sometime! :P

Why do I get the feeling Agent Cold is going to become a running joke sometime in the near future?

Anywho, all in all, this was an awesome read, excellent mission, and you should write more of these- I mean, well done!