Also, a YW theory.

Pernese Crackpot Theory by Huinesoron on 2016-06-24 09:55:00 UTC Reply

Since apparently we have several people who've read the Dragonriders of Pern books...

I'm in the middle of rereading Pern: I've gotten through most of the Ninth Pass (haven't finished Dolphins or Skies yet) and have also read Masterharper. And the treatment of Fax really bothered me: Masterharper makes a big deal of the fact that nothing like his low-key war of conquest has ever happened before, in two and a half thousand Turns - and that there are no provisions to deal with it if it does.

Wait, what?! Despite a lack of any method of preventing it, the Pernese haven't had a war in over two millennia? How does that happen?

And then a few things about the Oldtimers, who came forward 400 years from the end of the Eighth Pass to the start of the Ninth, started to click together:

-They feel it is within their rights to walk into a Crafthold and take anything they want (Dragonquest).
-They were shocked by the amount of forest they were expected to protect in the Ninth Pass (Dragonquest).
-They expect ground crews with flamethrowers to be out in Threadfall (Renegades), even though we're told of Benden's falls that only a handful of Threads get through - and that Benden flies sweeps afterwards to direct the crews.
-One of the very first things T'ron says to F'lar is 'Since Fort is the oldest Weyr...' (Dragonflight), and their entire interaction is built on power-play between the Weyrs (Dragonquest, The White Dragon).

And:

-The common people of Pern are afraid of Search, and of their children being taken to the Weyrs.
-When a young rider at Benden suggests using firestone against the rebellious Lords Holder (Dragonflight), the response is not 'no dragonrider would ever contemplate that!'.

Looking at all the evidence together, the picture I get of Pern before the Long Interval is a bleak one.

(I should say I'm ignoring Todd's books here. I'm speculating about Anne's view of pre-Long Interval Pern, not what was eventually written by her son.)

-The Weyrs ruled Pern under threat of firestoning, in a Pass or out of it. Lords Holder were autonomous under the Weyrs, but any who transgressed were brought swiftly to heel. We know exactly how this works - F'lar (who spends his time reading old records) used the 'let them march then kidnap their women' technique himself (Dragonflight). This is why the Lords Holder had never had to deal with a Fax before - the dragons did it for them.

-The Weyrs were engaged in constant petty power-struggles. Fort claimed authority as oldest Weyr, and cemented it by such techniques as calling meetings at awkward times (Dragonquest), or insisting on the letter of tradition when it best suited them.

-The Weyrs were harsh masters. They took what they wanted - goods, beasts, young men and women alike. Who could argue with a dragonrider?

-The dragonriders only fought Thread over the Holds themselves. They protected a handful of fields per hold, and let the rest of the North lie barren. When the Eighth Pass began, they allowed most of the forests that had sprung up over the previous 200 years to be devoured - saves work, right? This jumps out from so many things - their complaints about the forests, the Oldtimers' behaviour in the South (they didn't bother fighting falls at all, despite 'Dragonmen must fly/When Threads are in the sky') - that it's hard to deny as simple fact.

-The dragonriders probably didn't even fight every Fall even over the Holds. We know they didn't have timetables - they just 'got a feel' for when Thread would come. They didn't leave riders at the Holds either, which means they only knew Thread was coming when the drums conveyed the message to them. So they weren't there when it started - hence the need for properly-equipped ground crews to do their job for them!

This is... a really dark picture. And I really don't want to believe it. But the evidence seems really strong - and what's the alternative? That the Pernese are Just So Nice that no-one ever thought 'hey, I'd like my neighbour's land too'? That all T'ron's complaints about 'innovation' were because he super dislikes the new design of plough? That no-one before the Long Interval wanted to grow trees, and that the dragonriders were uncannily good at guessing when Thread would come? That everyone was so grateful even during Intervals that they offered up their livelihood and children every time a dragonrider wandered through?

I want to believe it, but I really can't see it. So who can persuade me otherwise?

hS

Also, a YW theory. by Neshomeh on 2016-06-24 15:59:00 UTC Reply

Namely, that the Wrinkle in Time series and the Young Wizards series share a universe.

I've just reread A Wrinkle in Time and I'm about halfway through A Wind in the Door, and I'm continuously struck by how much they remind me of Young Wizards. Meg, her little brother Charles Wallace, and her friend Calvin are Called; they're shown how the Dark Thing encircles planets, some of which are fighting and some of which have given in; they meet aliens, and Messengers, and Teachers; they travel to distant worlds and to tiny mitochondria within human cells; Meg has to learn to properly Name things in order to keep them from being Xed by the thing that snuffs out stars... It's too much for me to describe it all, but it would just be a hop and a skip from Madeleine L'Engle's worldbuilding language to Diane Duane's.

I'm pretty sure YW came along after AWiT, so I wonder if the similarities aren't an accident. Has anyone else read both? What do you think?

~Neshomeh

I have! Or, well, I've listened to them. by Granz the Ice Cream Monarch on 2016-06-25 00:24:00 UTC Reply

And I'd say... Possible, maybe even probable, but with a hole. Where are their Manuals? It's been a while, but I don't recall any Manual- or Knowledge-like thing in the AWiT series. If there is, however, I'd be inclined to agree.
It's certainly sensible! by S.M.F. on 2016-06-24 16:40:00 UTC Reply

There's some crossover fic to that effect on both ffnet and AO3, even. They're far from badfic, too, so that's a bonus. ^^

You can't just say such things without posting links :) by Tomash on 2016-06-26 05:24:00 UTC Reply

Ok, I found the ones on AO3, and they were quite good. But a scan of ffnet didn't turn anything up, and I'd certainly like to read more of this.

Truth be told, I'd forgotten their titles. |D Shame on me! by S.M.F. on 2016-06-26 14:13:00 UTC Reply

And I figured one had been crossposted originally... I guess not. Ah well.

Well... by Neshomeh on 2016-06-24 15:38:00 UTC Reply

I... can't really argue with the Oldtimers being absolutely awful. They were pretty firmly established as exactly as bad as you make them out to be.

Of Fax, though, I'd point out that (IIRC) his takeover was fairly subtle at first. He wriggled his way into the rightful bloodlines by a combination of smart marriages and smart murders, which he was careful to make sure no one could pin on him. It was only later—about when he was moving on Ruatha, his last acquisition, I think?—that he established himself as a military power, and by then the rest of the powerful Holds had ~~finally listened to Robinton like they should have done in the first place~~ worked out his game and armed themselves against him. Between that and Lessa giving him such a hard time in Ruatha, he didn't have enough resources to expand further, so he was stopped at seven.

I think there was generally a lot of complacency and inertia that let him get that far in the first place. Only a few people actually cared about what he was doing, until he was doing it on their own doorstep. The whole "there's no precedent!" thing was really a mask for "but that sounds like work!"

But it's been a while since my last read-though. My memory's pretty fuzzy.

~Neshomeh

That's not really the impression I got. by Huinesoron on 2016-06-24 16:02:00 UTC Reply

From reading Masterharper - at High Reaches he possibly murdered his incumbent uncle, definitely murdered his cousin the legitimate heir, and drove the next in line up into the abandoned Weyr. He then took Crom by murdering its lord at (I believe) a Gather. He also attempted several invasions during the course of Masterharper, some of which succeeded.

He certainly married a lot of women, and his claim on Ruatha was 'legitimate' through Lady Gemma, but Masterharper makes it clear that he murdered his way across the north-west.

As to why he stopped... I think you're right about the resources, with Lessa and all. I kind of disagree about the Lords Holder fending him off, though: I looked at the map and actually plotted his conquests out for the first time.

First off: by the First Egg that man was ambitious!

Secondly: I'll accept that Groghe at Fort could hold him off - the Hold has that name for a reason. And Fax probably killed Oterel of Tillek's father, plus fishing with harpoons would be good training for soldiers. But Telgar? Even under Larad rather than his father, I'm pretty sure Fax could take chunks out of the plains if he really wanted to.

Of course, doing so would leave his back open to Tillek and Fort... but he'd shown himself capable of sneaking around behind them often enough before.

Two final thoughts:

-Why does Southern Boll never do anything? I can't honestly recall it ever being relevant on the world stage.

-A Pern AU where Lessa dies with her family would be fascinating, if very dark. You'd have Fax still alive and kicking, Kylara as Ramoth's Weyrwoman... she might make a Ride, but there's no way she'd successfully bring the Five Weyrs through, which would leave, I don't even know, Brekke as the sole Weyrwoman of Pern? And F'lar trying desperately to make 300 dragons do the work of 3000...

hS