But that's still in the 1150s.

Subject: But that's still in the 1150s.
Author: Scapegrace
Posted on: 2016-06-01 10:42:00 UTC

You said in your opening post that this was "about 200 years before the Norman Conquest". If we say that this is from 866-ish to 966-ish over the total run time of the show, then this is the golden age of Moorish Spain. They had the Christians on the back foot, though Leon was independent. Initially, though we have the Emirate of Córdoba... now there's an idea.

These are the borders of the Emirate of Córdoba. Yes, there are border raids by the Leonese in the late 800s. Yes, the emirs had an unfortunate tendency to vacillate. If we go with the 880s as a starting point, then who's on the throne in the nation of al-Salazar's birth? A man Wikipedia describes as "a neurotic recluse[...]only interested in hunting and his faith". A weak man in a nation riven by war, whose authority didn't extend much outside his court.

Fast forward to 912. Our al-Salazar hears that his king is dead, and that his grandson (after the usual stranglings and so forth) is on the throne. This is Abd-ar-Rahman III, a man who would quite literally be the architect of Moorish Spain. In 929, ar-Rahman declares his Caliphate and proceeds to kick seven bells out of the Christians in the north. Córdoba becomes a beautiful city of light and learning. So here's the question.

Why doesn't Salazar go home?

The glory years of al-Andalus will be greater still with a trained wizard on the side of God. The Fatimids of north Africa will be that much easier to break upon the rocks. Asturias will fall. The dynastic conflicts of the 950s will benefit from the judicious application of Confundus charms. And most of all, our Salazar will live in the palace of his dreams, the Medina Azahara, a palace complex the size of a small town built five miles outside of Córdoba. You could do so much with this setting...

But that means abandoning his friends to the ravages of the Northmen. It means a choice between being remembered by foreigners as a dastardly adversary, and being remembered as a great leader by his own people. It means rain or sun, heather honey or Granadan dates, the palace or the standing stone.

What price ambition?

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The BBC Costume Drama that ought to happen. by Huinesoron on 2016-05-31 11:33:00 UTC Reply

Note: The setting of this series is late Anglo-Danish Britain, about 200 years before the Norman Conquest. All costuming and sets should reflect that.

[Fade in from black to an animation of masonry piling up on itself, building what turns out to be a tower. Voiceover by a man's voice.]

VO: There were four of us. Just four. The King's Champion...

[A red-haired bear of a man with a huge beard. He is holding a large, gleaming sword.]

VO: ... the Noble Lady...

[A stern-looking, black-haired woman wearing a silver crown. She has one hand on the shoulder of a young girl.]

VO: ... the Raiders' Daughter...

[A plump woman in a rough dress, raising a golden goblet to the camera.]

VO: ... and me.

[Our speaker, a handsome black man in dark clothes. He has a green jewel on a chain around his neck.]

VO: We were called the greatest of our age.

[A festival, brightly-coloured tents, and the four standing on a stage in front of a cheering crowd.]

VO: And we need to be.

[The four running through a dark forest. The Noble Lady aims a magic wand over her shoulder, and a beam of light flashes out.]

VO: We face threats both old...

[A Viking longboat surges through a stormy sea. At its prow stands a woman with an uplifted wand, black clouds pouring from it.]

VO: ... and new.

[An English hillside. A trio of men in Maya dress suddenly appear from thin air.]

VO: Old alliances will be broken...

[The King's Champion uses his wand to knock down the door of a castle, then marches inside, drawing his sword as he does so.]

VO: ... and new ones will be forged.

[The speaker and the King's Champion face off across a stone floor. The speaker holds a wand, while the Champion grasps his sword in both hands. The Raiders' Daughter stands between them, her hands out, barring them from each other.]

VO: We will be forced to face tough decisions...

[The Noble Lady turns away from a black stone tower. The girl she was previously seen with stands in the doorway, weeping.]

VO: ... but we must remain true to ourselves.

[The Raiders' Daughter runs down a slope and ploughs through the door of a Viking-style longhouse.]

VO: It's going to take more than bravery...

[The King's Champion charging up a hillside, sword drawn, as a screaming griffin flies overhead.]

VO: ... intelligence...

[The Noble Lady holding a book in one hand and reading aloud. A raven settles on her forearm as she speaks]

VO: ... or loyalty.

[The Raiders' Daughter kneeling in the undergrowth, whispering to a clan of badgers.]

VO: We're going to need to be cunning.

[The speaker grasping a snake just below the head, staring into its eyes.]

VO: And I have that in plenty.

[The four standing together in the dark. The King's Champion has his sword drawn; the two women are holding glowing wands; the speaker stands with his hands held in front of him, as if warding something off. A gigantic serpentine body cuts in front of the camera, and we fade to text:]

SALAZAR
Hogwarts: A History
Coming this summer

Come on, who wouldn't watch that?

The time period of the founding of Hogwarts is a really interesting one. You've got Aethelred "the Unready" on the throne of England, and renewed Viking invasions plaguing the coasts. Scotland is already a unified nation, but England is dangerously divided: the north is mostly Viking, the south Saxon, though both halves are nominally ruled by Wessex.

Looking over the founders, I found that Godric is actually from the West Country. As a renowned dueler, it makes perfect sense for him to be in the court of Aethelred - and given the king's policy of appeasing the Viking raiders that I've got the founders fighting, I see heaps of inherent drama in that.

Rowena is Scottish, but she has a Latin name: she's clearly noble enough to be putting on airs. (Chuck in that diadem for extra effect!) The fact that she has a daughter - a daughter who ended up massively resenting her - makes for brilliant storytelling.

Helga is from Wales, but has a Norse name; I've got her as the descendent of Vikings, now settled on the far west of old Mercia. Her main drive is going to be balancing her wizardly work with her loyalty to her home.

And then we have Salazar. Apparently we don't know where he's from, but he has a Portugese name - so I've made him of Moorish extraction (gotta get that diversity in somewhere!). That made it absolutely essential to have him as a sympathetic character ("Oh yes, the evil founder is the black one, surprise surprise...!"), so I took it a step further and cast him as the protagonist. His drama comes from his disagreement with the other founders, particularly (of course) Godric. Making his anti-Muggleborn prejudices understandable (if not necessarily sympathetic) is key, and probably centres on making the whole 'basilisk in the basement' thing not about murdering them all.

As for the opposition? Well, Vikings are a must-have, and we're probably looking at conflict with proto-Durmstrang. I've also chucked the New World into the mix, to give Rowling (obviously she's writing this) a chance to redeem her American credentials: the setting is right about when Leif Erikson found Vinland, so the idea of increased and hostile contact is absolutely there. Hopefully Mayan magic (or something further north, if she preferred) would be more interesting than MACUSA's view of Native magic.

hS

This sounds *amazing*. (nm) by DawnFire on 2016-06-05 15:32:00 UTC Reply
I would like to watch this by Hieronymus Graubart on 2016-06-02 10:38:00 UTC Reply

But why would Salazar have left Al-Andalus and travelled to Ireland?

HG

Factional politics, probably. by Scapegrace on 2016-06-03 09:12:00 UTC Reply

Maybe he came from one of the noble families of the Emirate, the ones that held most of the territory in Moorish Spain until Abd-ar-Rahman gave them a thorough kicking and united them into the Caliphate. Besides, court intrigue at the Islamic world tended to end in stranglings, so maybe he fancied a quiet life somewhere else...

And wound up travelling to Britain, which was about to become an active warzone.

Still probably safer, tbh. =]

(Also, and I just noticed this, al-Andalus means "to become green at the end of the summer". al-Salazar makes MORE AND MORE SENSE.)

Sketch of the opening scene. by Huinesoron on 2016-06-01 10:09:00 UTC Reply

We start with an extreme closeup of a pair of eyes. Pull back slowly to see the face of SALAZAR SLYTHERIN, one hand shading his eyes as he watches something off-screen in front of him. We keep drawing back, revealing a sunlit green countryside behind him. The sounds of battle start to fade in.

We pull back until we can see Salazar full-length. He stands with one hand on a shoulder-high standing stone; his other hand is holding his wand, pointed downwards. Then we rotate the camera, orbiting Salazar until we are behind him. Past him, we see what he is watching: the BATTLE OF TARA.

In the valley and on the slopes of the hill, the High King of Ireland is fighting the son of the Viking King of Dublin. The future of Ireland hangs in the balance - and things aren't going well. From Salazar's vantage point, we see the Irish banner swaying, surrounded by foes. The Vikings are massing for a charge.

Cut back to Salazar, to see him smile. He taps his wand against his thigh thoughtfully, then lifts it and takes aim.

SALAZAR: Serpensortia.

The Viking lines fall into sudden dissaray. The camera cuts down to show why: masses of snakes are writhing up from the grass of Tara, coiling around their legs. We see the Irish rally and charge the Vikings, and the Viking banner falls. Then we go back to Salazar.

SALAZAR: Vipera Evanesca.

The snakes evaporate into smoke, letting the Irish continue their attack. Salazar smiles, turns away, and walks off down the hill.

Cue main titles.

The Battle of Tara makes it 980, which is a good timing for our first episode. I've monkeyed with history a little - the King of Dublin wasn't actually present, and I doubt the battle took place on the slopes of the Hill of Tara itself - but hey, fiction.

Salazar's use of snakes here is at least triply meaningful: it's a 'cunning' plan (he doesn't have to go anywhere near the battle, and he doesn't actually harm anyone), it references his Parseltongue and later stories with the Basilisk (oh yes, Salazar has a Cute Animal Friend ^_^), and it's also a callout to Saint Patrick, famous for banishing snakes from Ireland.

And yes, Salazar is leaning on the Stone of Destiny. As you do.

hS

So it's 980 you're setting this. Okay. =] by Scapegrace on 2016-06-01 10:53:00 UTC Reply

Though this does imply Salazar having a Doomed Love Affair^TM with Lubna of Córdoba. Poet, bookworm, mathematician, singer, literal princess... what's not to like?

Oh, yeah, the whole Muggle thing. =]

Conspiracy theory: by Huinesoron on 2016-06-01 11:00:00 UTC Reply

Slytherin's kids were half-bloods. And just like their descendant Mr. I Am, they were truly awful people. Salazar did his level best to keep them out of Hogwarts, to prevent them corrupting the new school - up to and including saying 'Yeah, we should only teach pure-bloods, that's the best way'.

But Godric wouldn't listen. Cue the facepalm.

hS

Yup, that makes sense. =] by Scapegrace on 2016-06-01 12:24:00 UTC Reply

Perhaps that's why there's no major Spanish school of magic in the main HP continuum; the one in the Caliphate got razed to the ground by people sick of the descendants of al-Salazar (Slytherid Dynasty? Slytherid Dynasty. =] ) and their many, many varieties of BS. Moorish court politics was characterized by dead man's boots, so I'm guessing the Córdoba school encouraged that. Maybe the survivors turned on them... or maybe Christian wizards from Beauxbatons managed to defeat the Slytherid Wizards from the Medina Azahara.

And yes, it's in the (later ruins of) palace. Where else are you going to put it? =]

Caught me by surprise. by Larfen J. Stocke, esq on 2016-06-01 07:56:00 UTC Reply

Didn't expect that!

Ought to say, I do like the idea of Salazar as a sympathetic, protagonist character - he seems pretty bloody flawed, from what the wiki says.
And flaws are always lovely, aren't they?
It lasts seven episodes and only had money for six. =] (nm) by To The Scapemobile! on 2016-05-31 17:36:00 UTC Reply

It's fine, we'll just use loads of flashbacks. ^_^ (nm) by Huinesoron on 2016-05-31 20:47:00 UTC Reply

Ooh, interesting! by Iximaz on 2016-05-31 16:52:00 UTC Reply

Is this going to become the new Wednesday Plug? Pretty please? :P You know this would make a great fanfic.

As for Salazar's Muggleborn prejudices, I remember seeing something the other day; considering the time period, he was probably afraid that Muggleborns, raised in an anti-magic-slash-highly superstitious environment, might have tried to tell others where to find Hogwarts, or commit suicide believing themselves to be possessed by demons, or go on to become Dark witches and wizards, believing their souls were doomed anyway so they might as well have fun for it.

Not that this is necessarily my headcanon but I did find it interesting.

...Now to think of how him leaving the Basilisk could be made sympathetic... maybe he put it in the Chamber to guard the school in a time of great need, but as the years passed and his name became synonymous with "anti-Muggleborn", the legends became twisted and "Enemies of the Heir" was immediately assumed to mean Muggleborns?

And now I have a mental image of Slytherin facepalming at Riddle as he goes around loosing the Basilisk on the school. "No, no, no, you idiot! I put her there to protect the castle, not terrorize it!"

How much do I know about the Potterverse? by Huinesoron on 2016-05-31 20:39:00 UTC Reply

Not enough to do this justice. If you want to take it, I'll act as historical consultant... ^_~

Hmm on the theory. I'm not convinced this is the right timeframe for that. The Vikings in particular were barely post-pagan; English Christianity was still stuffed full of folklore, magic, and superstition.

... oh, but Salazar is Moorish. His heritage is Muslim, a religion that (in that time and place in particular) didn't tolerate wavering from the path. His experience is of the Reconquista, and fanatical Christians marching on anything different to destroy it. He probably has personal experience of 'half-blood' children - born of one Muslim parent, one Christian (and that probably happened both ways round) - who ended up betraying both. If ever anyone had reason to believe mixing races is wrong, it's someone from Spain during the Reconquista.

I like the idea about the Basilisk, though: absolutely! As to why it's there, it's because he mastered it. It's a creature of the Dark Arts (its gaze is basically a pocket Avada Kedavra), but it is now in service to the side of the right. Great symbol, fantastic. If only Godric would understand...

I have a feeling this show consists in large part of Salazar facepalming at things. Especially Godric. Because srsly.

hS

... What? by Scapegrace on 2016-06-01 00:40:00 UTC Reply

No, seriously, what?

This is the 900s. The Reconquista was close to 600 years after your show purports to be set. The dominant power in Spain was a redeclared Umayyad Caliphate after the crippling defeats of the 800s suffered by the Visigoths at the hands of North African Muslims. This was al-Andalus at its height, a kingdom of opulence and splendour unmatched in Christian Europe, with the capital at Córdoba making Paris look like a squalid little shantytown in a river of mud and excrement. This is absolutely, totally, unbelievably wrong.

I expect better from you.

Quote: by Huinesoron on 2016-06-01 07:23:00 UTC Reply

The Reconquista is the name given to a long series of wars and battles between the Christian Kingdoms and the Muslim Moors for control of the Iberian Peninsula. It lasted for a good portion of the Middle Ages from 718 to 1492.

Very first thing you see when you type 'Reconquista' into Google.

Historians traditionally mark the beginning of the Reconquista with the Battle of Covadonga (718 or 722), in which a small Christian army, led by the nobleman Pelagius, defeated an army of the Umayyad Caliphate in the mountains of northern Iberia and established a Christian principality in Asturias.

Part of Wikipedia's lead.

This map purports to show the situation some 150 years after the founding of Hogwarts, and clearly indicates that more than half of the Iberian penninsula had been "reconquered" (as it were) by the Christians.

I wasn't talking about the fall of Granada, y'know. I was talking about conflict on the edge of Al-Andalus, not in its heartland.

hS

But that's still in the 1150s. by Scapegrace on 2016-06-01 10:42:00 UTC Reply

You said in your opening post that this was "about 200 years before the Norman Conquest". If we say that this is from 866-ish to 966-ish over the total run time of the show, then this is the golden age of Moorish Spain. They had the Christians on the back foot, though Leon was independent. Initially, though we have the Emirate of Córdoba... now there's an idea.

These are the borders of the Emirate of Córdoba. Yes, there are border raids by the Leonese in the late 800s. Yes, the emirs had an unfortunate tendency to vacillate. If we go with the 880s as a starting point, then who's on the throne in the nation of al-Salazar's birth? A man Wikipedia describes as "a neurotic recluse[...]only interested in hunting and his faith". A weak man in a nation riven by war, whose authority didn't extend much outside his court.

Fast forward to 912. Our al-Salazar hears that his king is dead, and that his grandson (after the usual stranglings and so forth) is on the throne. This is Abd-ar-Rahman III, a man who would quite literally be the architect of Moorish Spain. In 929, ar-Rahman declares his Caliphate and proceeds to kick seven bells out of the Christians in the north. Córdoba becomes a beautiful city of light and learning. So here's the question.

Why doesn't Salazar go home?

The glory years of al-Andalus will be greater still with a trained wizard on the side of God. The Fatimids of north Africa will be that much easier to break upon the rocks. Asturias will fall. The dynastic conflicts of the 950s will benefit from the judicious application of Confundus charms. And most of all, our Salazar will live in the palace of his dreams, the Medina Azahara, a palace complex the size of a small town built five miles outside of Córdoba. You could do so much with this setting...

But that means abandoning his friends to the ravages of the Northmen. It means a choice between being remembered by foreigners as a dastardly adversary, and being remembered as a great leader by his own people. It means rain or sun, heather honey or Granadan dates, the palace or the standing stone.

What price ambition?

I'm sorry. by Scapegrace on 2016-06-01 00:56:00 UTC Reply

The above response was an explosion, and it was completely out of line to say what I did. No matter what it is, you deserve to be treated with respect, and I did not do so. For that, I can only apologise. Anger, stress, paranoia... they're all reasons. They're not excuses. They don't excuse my behaviour any more than they justify it. You don't need me being a bloody harpy at you.

You're still wrong about what Muslim Spain was like during the 900s, don't get me wrong, but I shouldn't have lost my temper at it. I'm sorry.

"No, Godric, don'tâ€”" by Iximaz on 2016-05-31 21:31:00 UTC Reply

*facepalm* "Don't charge the manticore, how many times did I tell you not to and you did it anyway no I'm not saving your sorry ass—"

*facepalm* "Godric, no, you can't have the students sorted by having them fight each other."

*facepalm* "No, Godric, we're not building a shrine to your awesomeness in the castle."

*facepalm* "Godric, I don't even need to explain why that's a bad idea..."

*facepalm* "No. Just... no."

I have a scene in my head... by Huinesoron on 2016-06-01 11:05:00 UTC Reply

... of Godric riling Salazar up just enough that his anger takes hold.

SALAZAR: Avada Ke-

HELGA: SILENCIO!

It probably takes place in the very first episode.

But I can also see it being repeated in the last, during the final confrontation between the Founders before Salazar's banishment. Only that time, it's Godric who tries to cast the Killing Curse.

In between: lots of facepalming.

hS

I am really looking forward to this show. by Scapegrace on 2016-06-01 12:28:00 UTC Reply

SALAZAR: Godric is a mighty warrior, a brave man, the noblest of spirits and most respectable champion of men. He is as my brother.

LUBNA (YES I AM STILL ON THIS): And yet he has angered you with nought but his presence at court?

SALAZAR: He is a mighty warrior.

LUBNA: So you say.

SALAZAR: He could also be outwitted by a date palm. He is my brother, and I must protect him as best I can, because the intrigue of the Shining City will eat him alive.

[It is at this point that Godric shows up with several unconscious plotters floating behind him]

GODRIC: Not if I eat them first.

Is this a costume drama, or a sitcom? {; P (nm) by Neshomeh on 2016-05-31 22:34:00 UTC Reply

Hmmm. by Iximaz on 2016-05-31 23:01:00 UTC Reply

Oh, wow, yes. by Neshomeh on 2016-05-31 16:49:00 UTC Reply

Sign me right up for this! Very excellent work building it up. I didn't quite realize what was going on until the end, but I began to suspect at the first mention of a wand. ^_^

Hm, I didn't know Ravenclaw was Scottish. Given her nobility, do you think she's the one responsible for providing Hogwarts' location? Her castle, or perhaps she let them build it on her land?

I want to see magic-using Vikings. Can't help but imagine this in context with the show Vikings, and that would just be all kinds of madness. Not one of those guys should be allowed to touch a wand. {X D

... Bit of a shame that a show with Salazar as the protagonist must eventually conclude with his fall and exile from Hogwarts. Still, he does get his "ha ha, joke's on you" moment, what with the Chamber of Secrets, so I guess that's all right. Leave the audience with a bit of foreshadowing for the Chamber's eventual opening. Could be quite satisfying, dramatically.

So yeah, this should be a thing immediately. {= D

~Neshomeh

:D So it worked on at least one person! Good! by Huinesoron on 2016-05-31 20:31:00 UTC Reply

I was really hoping for that.

Yes, apparently Gryffindor, Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw come from England, Wales, and Scotland; Slytherin isn't stated anywhere, but people often guess Ireland (to round out the quartet of nations). Rowena choosing the site for Hogwarts is a canon legend, and I'm convinced; she was the smart one, after all!

Funnily enough, part of the inspiration for this was the one episode I watched of The Last Kingdom, which is a historical drama set during the Viking invasions (a hundred years before this one). There's just something about the conjunction of HP magic and Anglo-Viking history that screams YES at me.

You call it a fall; he calls it a tactical retreat to better establish his position until a later date. Tomato, potato. ;) But yeah, bit of a downer ending, but very interesting to watch.

hS

Yes please. by JulyFlame on 2016-05-31 16:40:00 UTC Reply

Though the Maya are far too far south, even assuming some of the semi-questionable research insisting that the South American civilisations had contact with China or Africa is true.

If you really wanted to make it more likely I would say one of the groups the Vikings would have come in contact with would make a better option by far.

Well, something something apparate. by Huinesoron on 2016-05-31 20:25:00 UTC Reply

But yeah. The key (for the trailer) is to make them obviously from America, without dipping into cliche (I highly doubt they wore elaborate feather headdresses in Newfoundland!). I think The MACUSA Document claims wizards knew about the New World before even the Vikings found it, so maybe the Mayan wizards have the interests of the entire continent at heart. They did build one of their pyramids down in Brazil to act as a school, so who knows?

hS

It sounds good. We need to do this, if J.K. Rowling doesn't. (nm by DCCCV on 2016-05-31 16:39:00 UTC Reply
I'd watch that. (nm) by eatpraylove on 2016-05-31 16:33:00 UTC Reply