Not sure what you're askingÂ…

Subject: Not sure what you're askingÂ…
Author: hermione of vulcan
Posted on: 2013-01-01 15:33:00 UTC

Are you asking how to remove a Sue from your own work, or what's that best way to kill a Sue in a PPC mission? If it's the first, I guess the best analogy is a surgical operation--remove the traits from the character that are Sue-y and re-mold the story around them. A good rule of thumb is that if the OC is the main character and the main characters from the continuum are in the story, the OC is probably a Sue. So what you'd have to is rework the story to make canon characters the focus. Or, conversely, make the fic a "lower decks" story, showing a different slice of life in the continuum. For example, Harry Potter focuses on Gryffindor house, so a story focusing on some OCs in Hufflepuff that only have brief contact with the Golden Trio wouldn't be Sue-y.
In a PPC mission, the way the agents kill the Sue is up to the author of the mission, but there is a format. The agents go into the fic, observe the Sue's transgressions as they watch the plot of the Suefic play out, then, when they have enough charges, they interrupt the narrative and charge and kill the Sue. They might simply use canonical weapons on her, or maybe they'll come up with something appropriate. For example, if the Sue survived a fall that she shouldn't have, the agents might drop her off a cliff.

Hope I've answered your question! Thanks for asking!

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The best way to kill a sue in general? by A rather puzzled platypus on 2013-01-01 15:04:00 UTC Reply

As a realative newcomer, I must ask a question. What works best for getting rid of sues? Do you need to change the actual fiction, stem the flow at its source? Or do to hack a cardboard sue to bits, then compost it?

Ranged weaponry. by SpecstacularSC on 2013-01-01 22:18:00 UTC Reply

So far as I know, there is no canon that is widely popular that doesn't have guns, bows, trebuchets or the like.

In the original series, ranged kills were the preferred method of Jay and Acacia.

on the topic of questions... by a rather puzzled platypus on 2013-01-02 15:10:00 UTC Reply

On the subject of questions, can your agent be recruited from a six page short short story?

Did you write the story? by firemagic on 2013-01-02 15:53:00 UTC Reply

If so, yes. If it's a published short story that you didn't write, then no.

Use canonical methods. by Calista on 2013-01-02 04:10:00 UTC Reply

The best way to kill a Sue is to use an ironic, canonical method. And the safest way is to use a ranged weapon. So, if you can find an ironic, canonical ranged weapon? Go for it. Legolas fangirl Sues can usually be taken down very well by an Elven-made bow, for example. Or an Orcish bow or crossbow (I think the Uruk-Hai had crossbows, didn't they?), which could well be part of the disguise.

Of course, your agents have to be proficient in the weapon in question. Most agents will have some kind of training, but newbies may be reduced to simple weapons anyone can use, and even the most experienced ones may have to improvise. If worst comes to worst, a heavy rock to the skull will take down most Sues.

In some cases, the Sue is so flat that she is unable to comprehend that the agents are going to assassinate her. It could literally be possible to grab her, tie her up, and throw her off a cliff without encountering anything but misspelled protests. But some Sues will fight back, and if they fight back, your agents should fight dirty. Thankfully, Sues are not very creative combatants, since most of their writers don't know how to write battle scenes and simply hand their Sue the victory, with or without just-for-show flourishes. The biggest danger from Sues in combat is just that they are overpowered, so it's a bad idea to take them on head-on. Creativity, stealth, and dirty fighting should be the order of the day.

It's really not the Sues that are so dangerous; it's the canons. A well-written canon under Suefluence does not suffer from the lack of creativity that Sues have. Those who are mostly in character aren't too much of a threat because of the SEP field, but if they're OOC enough to notice or the Sue calls them into the fight on her side, your agents have the problem of dealing with sometimes very skilled combatants who should not be killed. This is why you want the Sue alone for the assassination. Otherwise, you may end up with an infuriated, Sued Aragorn chasing you through a mysteriously spiderless Mirkwood, convinced that you are out to kill the girl he loves so much that he has completely forgotten about Arwen.

Not that this wouldn't be amusing to write about. Unlike Sues, agents are not perfect and do not have their battles handed to them on a silver platter.

klatchian coffee by a rather confused platypus on 2013-01-02 14:41:00 UTC Reply

Doesn't Klatchian coffee strip apart the little lies, and glitter sues are made of?

Re: klatchian coffee by Antigone68104 on 2013-01-02 15:22:00 UTC Reply

I believe this was used to kill a Discworld Sue.

:: checks wiki ::

Yep, it was, but there's no mission link on the "Assassination Methods" page. I'll see if I can find it for you.

You mean glittery Wilver platter? :D by SpecstacularSC on 2013-01-02 04:59:00 UTC Reply

I feel you might have overlooked some admittedly-minor-but-important things. If not, it's still good for the question asker to know them, right?

In Lego Lord of the Rings, there are unlockable Uruk Crossbowmen, which you also end up fighting in Helm's Deep, and they have a primative Sniper/Spotter system with trolls throwing big rocks on the Uruk's call, so I assume this all happens in canon as well.

Although Jay and Acacia and the other early agent writers did make it a habit to inform readers of agent capabilities, nowadays, it seems that so long as there is plausible evidence of proficiency with a certain weapon, nobody is apt to complain about why this agent was using a flux capacitor cannon McWhatever to kill the sue.

Ironic deaths are still well and good, though.

It seems that more and more Sues are going the flat route, as an aside here.

Nothing to say about canons, all has been said.

Aaand that's my response here.

A fun subset of irony/playing dirty by Cyba Zero on 2013-01-02 09:04:00 UTC Reply

Another good one is turning the 'Sue's/'Stu's own powers against them. It can be tricky to do, and is only possible under certain circumstances, but it is very ironic and downright hilarious when it works. It is also a useful way of weakening a combat-capable 'Sue so your agents can pin them down to read the charge list.

Oh, yes. by firemagic on 2013-01-02 13:19:00 UTC Reply

In one of my missions, a character had turned into basically a combat machine that curbstomped everyone into oblivion and was an absolute hypocrite who bore no resemblance to ANYTHING in the canon and....

Nevermind. Anyways, partway through she randomly got a freaking Gundam upgrade (Gundam had not shown up before, since, or in any other capacity other than happy present from the author) and basically upgraded herself with tech from three different canons (that was of course so super speshul and so much better than her native canon who ARGH.) So my and Des' agents gave her a virus-laden chunk of tech that later crippled her to the point where Ari could go toe-to-toe with her without getting instantly curbstomped (though Ari is still in Medical. I need to make an Interlude for that...)

Oh GOD, I read that mission. by SpecstacularSC on 2013-01-02 18:34:00 UTC Reply

Ugh, that mission is why I stopped trying to write serious military stories.

Even fantasy or sci-fi ones, though I am tempted from time to time.

How can a guy write about senseless genocide so casually, while at the same time showing clear incompetence at military strategy? It boggles my mind...

'Scuse me, "Oh AELDRA, I read that mission." by SpecstacularSC on 2013-01-02 18:35:00 UTC Reply

My hand slipped.

That's one of the best ways. by Sergio Turbo on 2013-01-02 10:56:00 UTC Reply

I went that way several times already. It's always fun.

Making a Stu eject from his fighter jet by exploiting an unrealistic mechanic the Stu himself made up? Check.

Making a character replacement be powerless because she said that the character's weapon refuses to work if it doesn't recognize the owner as being "herself"? Check.

Blast an overpowered Sue into space dust using the main cannon of an uncanonical spaceship she created? Priceless.

Agreed. by SpecstacularSC on 2013-01-02 11:20:00 UTC Reply

Cremate a sue by exploiting her ability to control, but not immunity to, fire?

Yep. Been there.

It was one of my own stories - SC (me in fiction form), canonically (Specs and Co.), has almost godlike powers over his own creations, so I simply snapped reality back into play in my horrifically unrealistic story.

End result: mid-fire breath attack, Sue burned to death from the inside out and crumbled into ash.

It. Was. Awesome.

Ayup. by Lily Winterwood on 2013-01-02 22:53:00 UTC Reply

Strangulation with the Red String of Fate because the Sue thought she was Sherlock Holmes's soulmate?
So. Much. Fun.

Heh heh. by SpecstacularSC on 2013-01-03 01:46:00 UTC Reply

If we keep this up, this'll turn into my next big general discussion topic.

"What awesome ways have you killed sues in or out of the PPC?"

TRADING WAR STORIES. by Lily Winterwood on 2013-01-03 02:30:00 UTC Reply

I like it.
-smashes flagon of Bleepale into counter like a warrior-

Kinda' sounds like that show Trading Spaces. by SpecstacularSC on 2013-01-03 02:52:00 UTC Reply

-table breaks-

Screw it. Doin it.

This'll be fun by firemagic on 2013-01-03 03:26:00 UTC Reply

...I wonder. If we do the Sues we have killed through missions, should we write our characters talking about it? Like, they all met in a Ye Olde Taverne and decided to start telling stories?

I could work it like that... by SpecstacularSC on 2013-01-03 10:20:00 UTC Reply

I mean, I'm already playing bartender in the topic.

Let's see how it goes.
It could be a big interlude! by Lily Winterwood on 2013-01-03 04:57:00 UTC Reply

And it'd end in a barfight between the more aggressive Agents arguing over which assassination was cooler.

But-but... by SpecstacularSC on 2013-01-03 10:21:00 UTC Reply

But my fake insurance (Specs and Co. Financial Corporates, Inc.) doesn't cover barfights!

Kinda' like... by SpecstacularSC on 2013-01-02 09:22:00 UTC Reply

What I do to my Specs and Co. cast, all the time.

"Oh, sure, you could try and stab me. Just remember, I MADE that sword, and can disarm you very easily... so I've got way more cards in my deck than you, b*tch."

-SC, to Teh Specs.

Do a Mission by Riese on 2013-01-01 22:14:00 UTC Reply

Kill the Sue. Preferably with a canonical weapon (for example, a longsword in the Lord of the Rings as opposed to a blaster rifle).

If you're asking about weapons... by Riese on 2013-01-01 22:23:00 UTC Reply

...you've got the right guy. I collect and study weapons, from ancient to modern. If you have a question that pertains to anything that goes any variety of CHOP or BOOM, come find me.

To add to this: by SpecstacularSC on 2013-01-01 22:30:00 UTC Reply

A lot of us, you'll find, are either self-proclaimed or actual weapon experts of some variety.

Like: as Riese is a weapons collector of all varieties, I focus mainly on swords of all varieties. Sergio is a gun guy, and there's a few archery folks about, too.

So, by all means, any weapons questions you have, let the board know. We love those questions because we love nerding out about weaponry!

*lightbulb* by Riese on 2013-01-01 23:31:00 UTC Reply

Why don't we make a wiki page that lists PPCers who know useful things, and what kinds of things they know.

Somwthing like this:

Riese: Weapons, military history, naval ships, tanks & armored vehicles, etc.

SpectacularSC: Swords, whateverelse, otherstuff

Etc.

And what if you know something that isn't weapons related? by Lily Winterwood on 2013-01-01 23:50:00 UTC Reply

I'm in a pre-med class at my high school and we do a lot of discussions on poisons, diseases, and other fun things, and I recently got a Professional Guide to Diseases thing, so yeah.

If you guys want ways to make a Sue's death look like an accident, I have ideas. :'D

We could make it a General Expertise page... by SpecstacularSC on 2013-01-01 23:55:00 UTC Reply

And put each expertise (weapons/non-weapons) as main categories, types (sword/axe/poison) as sub-categories, and people who specialize (Teh Specs/Riese/Lily/Sergio/etc.) could have links to their profiles or sommat.

It's a work in process, but I see it going places.

On that note... by KittyNoodles on 2013-01-02 22:54:00 UTC Reply

Is there already a page specifically set aside for people knowledgeable about specific canons, or does the Beta-Readers page pretty much take care of that? Seems to me I can't be the first one to have a little trouble finding a character checker for my latest mission, and if others in the future want to tackle badfics from relatively obscure (as far as PPC missions go) canons, it might be helpful to have a go-to page with lists - by canon - of people willing to character/canon check and beta read from each canons.

Thoughts?

I support this ideaÂ… by hermione of vulcan on 2013-01-03 01:00:00 UTC Reply

Because I have little Real Life expertise, but I'm an expert on several continua. Star Trek comes to mind, as do Greek Mythology and the Oz series.

So shall I create a page for specific knowledge? by KittyNoodles on 2013-01-03 01:38:00 UTC Reply

Or something along that line. Maybe "Canon-Specific Advisers"?

Sounds good to me. by SpecstacularSC on 2013-01-03 01:50:00 UTC Reply

I'll put myself down as Tales of Vesperia/Assassin's Creed.

Kewl. by KittyNoodles on 2013-01-03 02:01:00 UTC Reply

Anyone else? I'm waiting for another 'yes' vote. Or two.

Sounds good to me. by ThatOne on 2013-01-03 02:10:00 UTC Reply

Of course my list is always shifting. Last year I would have been able to tell you everything about Hetalia and nothing about Doctor Who or Sherlock. Now it's kinda the opposite.
Sure! by firemagic on 2013-01-03 02:07:00 UTC Reply

I can do Puella Magi Madoka Magica, Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha, and probably Avatar the Last Airbender and Legend of Korra.

Sweet! Off I go! by KittyNoodles on 2013-01-03 02:10:00 UTC Reply

And once it's posted, if someone can come up with a better title than 'Canon Advisers', feel free to change the title...

Hmm... by ThatOne on 2013-01-02 20:11:00 UTC Reply

I'm not an expert on anything really interesting unless you want to know about twins. I could rant for hours about that. Genetics and psychology and why it's impossible to have identical twins that are different genders and all that stuff.

I do know general archery and I fence (epee), so I could provide some general knowledge for that sort of thing, but it's not like I've studied swords or bows. And I'm pretty good with survivalist stuff, but again I'm no expert.

Twin!Sues pop up a lot by firemagic on 2013-01-02 23:09:00 UTC Reply

I'm pretty sure you could find twin!Sues that are the identical female twin of Harry Potter with midnight-black hair and emerald sparkling eyes and a storm-cloud shaped scar (SO THEY MATCH!!!!1!!!117). Or Sue-Stu partnership that are likewise http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HalfIdenticalTwins

Hm, do you know anything about conjoined twins? Because if so THIS http://gugarts.deviantart.com/art/Puella-Magi-OC-Yamika-and-Kamiya-314323130 will probably annoy you. A lot. I've already left comments on it, which have been of course shot down (Commentor, if you can't understand what I'm saying, you might want to try READING WHAT I POSTED.)

I'm so tired of orphanages in fiction. by ThatOne on 2013-01-03 02:03:00 UTC Reply

I know nothing about Puella Magi or any powers that Kyubey might have but you cannot separate conjoined (the phrase "Siamese" is kinda outdated and inaccurate) twins without a scar of some sort. If they were attached somewhere in the chest region, as I would assume from Yamika's muteness, then there would have been way more complications. And why did the mother die? There was nothing wrong with her.

Second point: orphanages. I have heard real-life stories about twins getting separated and adopted by two different families, which would have explained their severe difference in personalities (although being a bit speshul and dramatic) but they were together the entire time. Studies have shown that with identical twins, who share the same DNA, the differences in appearance and personality only occur because of a difference in environments, mostly in the first six months. They have had basically the same environment their entire lives. This is not plausible.

Third point: I really effing hate "shared souls" and "twin telepathy". The reason (I assume from my experiences as a twin and from knowing other twins) for all those theories is because most twins have lived extremely similar lives, which conditions them to think and act the same way. If you shared almost all of your experiences with someone and saw them every single day of your life, you would end up with a lot of inside jokes and things like that, which make people on the outside think you're sharing thoughts or something.

I would advise leaving them alone, because they're not going to be changing any time soon with that attitude. The way they put your username in quotation marks struck me as really rude for some reason.
I know absolutely nothing about this continuum... by hermione of vulcan on 2013-01-03 01:46:00 UTC Reply

And I can still shake my head at the stupidity.
I love how she's just so dismissive... by Lily Winterwood on 2013-01-02 23:18:00 UTC Reply

Reminds me of the Circle comment I got in return for pointing out that Galadriel and Celeborn's daughter isn't named Melody.

Yeah by firemagic on 2013-01-02 23:34:00 UTC Reply

Really, what's even more annoying to me (than the huge breaks in canon) is that 'Gugarts' is the one replying. I mean, clearly he/she is the author's friend, because they helped with... something. But the author isn't even responding, when I'd think that he/she would be the one who'd know what the frig is going on with their story.

And the art isn't even that bad, really. If it were just a piece of art with no story, I'd be confused about the Soul Gem but it'd still make sense. With the story, though, it just - I don't even know.

Also, I have no idea how you watch Madoka and mess up this much canon. What part of 'I wish to destroy every witch everywhere, in every world' 'Kyubey can't advise on wishes' and 'That is not how conjoined twins work' is hard to understand?

Offering my expertise. by Sergio Turbo on 2013-01-02 14:03:00 UTC Reply

As it was already say, I know a lot about firearms. (Never actually tried one, though - my father keeps forgetting to renew his gun carrying permit, so we basically can't go to the firing range because he can't carry his rifle)

I have other expertises, too.

Cars (and motorbikes in a limited fashion): I've always been a sort of car maniac, so I know those well. I also follow Formula 1 throroughly, played a lot of semi-realistic games (like Gran Turismo) and drove some laps on a low-specs racing car once, so I guess I can be used as a source of car racing info too.

Planes and helicopters: My current school course is about those, as I'm an assembly line technician in training. The course is comprehensive enough to let me create plausible helicopter designs from scratch (as Firemagic can confirm, as two of those were for her NaNovel)

Nailed it! by SpecstacularSC on 2013-01-02 18:27:00 UTC Reply

*guitar medley*

But only on the guns part. In my case, there's no gun ranges I know of in Modesto, so my rifle is gathering dust.

It's always handy to have a mechanic or techie (like the chief technician in my sci-fi comedy, whose nickname is "Techie", hurdledur) when writing vehicles.

Oh, sounds fun! by firemagic on 2013-01-02 13:26:00 UTC Reply

I don't have expertise in weapony sorts of things (though I did take two terms of fencing as my sport, so I can do that, I guess?). However! My mother is the DC of our Pony Club and I've basically be involved with horses for a lot of my life (so much stall-cleaning... SO MUCH.) so I can help with a Sue that thinks that you can grab a horse in the middle of the night, through a saddle-pad on, and ride it through freezing rain for three days without rest, grooming, or food outside of apples/carrots/grass.

I also took two years of Arabic, so while I can't help with long sentences or really complex sorts of thing, I can point out some errors in sentence structure or grammar (I hope.)

And finally, I'm pretty good at some canons. The Dresden Files I know fairly well, same with AtlA and a couple others, and Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha and Puella Magi Madoka Magica I know really well,

Sure thing. by SpecstacularSC on 2013-01-02 18:38:00 UTC Reply

The canons will have to be a separate page, but the other stuff, by all means, toss it in!

Definitely. by Lily Winterwood on 2013-01-02 00:00:00 UTC Reply

I feel like a general expertise thing would work best, considering there's so much out there in terms of fanfic research, and it'd always help to have someone friendly provide basics and point to good articles on the internet and stuff.

Absolutely. by SpecstacularSC on 2013-01-02 00:06:00 UTC Reply

And since we all have stepped out of our areas of expertise before and tried new weapons and ideas and such, we could help reinforce each other's know-how when necessary. It doesn't just have to be for rookies looking for advice - mods could jump on this bandwagon, too!

Sounds like a plan! by Riese on 2013-01-02 00:32:00 UTC Reply

I'd do it myself, but iPhone. If someone else wants to start it, I'll work on it when I get home tomorrow.

Oh, don't worry, I can't do it either. by SpecstacularSC on 2013-01-02 00:44:00 UTC Reply

Because DS.

Where internet capabilities were an emergency scrap-together add-on.

Super-basic wiki page by Antigone68104 on 2013-01-02 15:41:00 UTC Reply

http://ppc.wikia.com/wiki/GeneralExpertise

All I did was pull comments off this thread, so the page will need a _lot of work.

I didn't put canons known on the page, because that might go better on a Canon Expertise page.

Hey, I did say it was a work in progress. by SpecstacularSC on 2013-01-02 18:23:00 UTC Reply

It's a start, right? There's no rush to get this absolutely right.

I'm game. by SpecstacularSC on 2013-01-01 23:35:00 UTC Reply

Call it weapon freaks, or sommat?

I can toss the idea Kitty's way. We'll have to be sure to submit our skill sets, of course.

And I'll finally have a reason to make a wiki profile!

Could work.

Um, can I nominate myself by SingingTheThunder on 2013-01-02 09:27:00 UTC Reply

As someone with detailed knowledge of many fantasy continua. If you want to know what a Streeler is or a brief overview of Tortallian magic or even something as simple as the eye colour options for Deverry elves I can help.
(Harry Potter: a large venomous orange snail.) (Tortall series by Tamora Pierce) (Deverry Cycle by Katherine Kerr, blue, green or purple)

Oh, it's totally open. by SpecstacularSC on 2013-01-02 09:54:00 UTC Reply

The more people who jump on the idea, the better the page will be, in my mind.

And since it's general expertise, we can totally compile continua as well.

Answers. by Sergio Turbo on 2013-01-01 16:13:00 UTC Reply

"Do you need to change the actual fiction"

No, no, no, absolutely NO. That would be absolutely wrong, as it would become a direct offense. (and would require hacking, too)
After all, we mock bad writing ad offer advice for good writing. We don't destroy bad writing.

"Or do to hack a cardboard sue to bits, then compost it"
You can do that if you want (and feels also a good way to cope with some really awful fanfics), but it's not required.

Anyways, you seem to don't understand what the big deal is - PPC Missions are stories all in themselves - we basically write a story in which our Agents enter the badfic and fix stuff, dealing with all sorts of weirdness caused by the bad writing.

Sues are killed, but, well, methaphorically - our Agents, fictional characters themselves, kill them.
Not sure what you're askingÂ… by hermione of vulcan on 2013-01-01 15:33:00 UTC Reply

Are you asking how to remove a Sue from your own work, or what's that best way to kill a Sue in a PPC mission? If it's the first, I guess the best analogy is a surgical operation--remove the traits from the character that are Sue-y and re-mold the story around them. A good rule of thumb is that if the OC is the main character and the main characters from the continuum are in the story, the OC is probably a Sue. So what you'd have to is rework the story to make canon characters the focus. Or, conversely, make the fic a "lower decks" story, showing a different slice of life in the continuum. For example, Harry Potter focuses on Gryffindor house, so a story focusing on some OCs in Hufflepuff that only have brief contact with the Golden Trio wouldn't be Sue-y.
In a PPC mission, the way the agents kill the Sue is up to the author of the mission, but there is a format. The agents go into the fic, observe the Sue's transgressions as they watch the plot of the Suefic play out, then, when they have enough charges, they interrupt the narrative and charge and kill the Sue. They might simply use canonical weapons on her, or maybe they'll come up with something appropriate. For example, if the Sue survived a fall that she shouldn't have, the agents might drop her off a cliff.

Hope I've answered your question! Thanks for asking!