Subject: Agreed.
Author:
Posted on: 2016-03-05 06:23:00 UTC
HPMOR isn't badfic bad, it's just one long author tract.
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Beta request by
on 2016-03-04 16:05:00 UTC
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I decided to try Kelly in the sorting room, and I'd like someone to check her out and see if the character is the problem, or if there is something else that I'm missing.
To be clear, I don't like this story yet. Please be thorough. I won't be offended at praise, but I doubt that there are any details worth saying "do more of that."
Since I have very little web access, I'm putting this as publicly available. Either work on the posted copy or pull a copy off and email me about it. I'll try to respond by the middle of next week.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Px6jeNzt9s45EV64bnP9SCEdVMtWXKTl5MTR0-R_8/edit?usp=sharing -
I like it by
on 2016-03-05 23:38:00 UTC
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Kelly's intriguing. Maybe it's your editing, but to me she doesn't seem so much snobbish as painfully bored. I don't think she needs to be taken down a notch; she needs something exciting to happen. And you've already got the beginning of something exciting: the paper carnations. They look innocuous (secret admirer flowers! How cute!), but they could easily signal something much more sinister. Or they could be sweet secret admirer flowers. Either way, I'm intrigued.
Oh, I have negative feedback too. Her reaction to the Harry Potter fic was confusing. Did reading it make her happy? Was she irritated by it? Was she slightly-less-bored by it? I couldn't really tell. -
Re: I like it by
on 2016-03-08 15:34:00 UTC
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I'll try re-writing this so that her thoughts are a bit clearer.
She's supposed to be unimpressed by just about anything. She actually is supposed to be in the Sorting department as a sort of vaction from the field at this point. A sort of "return to normalcy" because the sorting room is a lot like her pre-ppc job.
I've got some work to do.
The carnations were sort of a genius bonus.
CARNATION Striped - No; Refusal; Sorry I Can't Be with You: Wish l Could Be with You
•CARNATION White - Sweet and Lovely; Innocence; Pure Love; Woman's Good Luck Gift
•CARNATION Yellow - You Have Disappointed Me; Rejection
The white ones were for love, the yellow stripes were the admirer giving up. -
FLOWER SYMBOLISM?! REALLY?! by
on 2016-03-08 17:35:00 UTC
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I like flower symbolism. A lot.
Giving up, though? What a pity. Will they try something else? -
A quick glance-over. by
on 2016-03-04 16:31:00 UTC
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On the plus side, Kelly does seem to have a discernable character.
On the minus side, I really don't like the character she shows. She's condescending in the extreme, seeing herself above everyone (she doesn't descend to the banality of gossip). She knows what's good for the muppet better than he does, but won't deign to share her opinion. She knows better than the entirety of the PPC + J.K.Rowling how Harry Potter should be characterised, and is willing to consider not actually doing her job in order to promote that.
She... just doesn't come across as someone who would be interesting to either read about or write about. Are you actually enjoying writing her? If so, what about her is making you feel that way?
hS
(PS: I don't think you're after a beta as such; betas are for stories you think are finished and want to get another pair of eyes on. If you don't like the story, then you're not at that stage. ^_~) -
Re: A quick glance-over. by
on 2016-03-04 16:59:00 UTC
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I'm thinking that I should put Kelly with someone who could take her down a peg, maybe. Or just figure out why she's such a sourpuss.
As far as enjoyable to write... She does have a strong presence which makes her almost write herself.
How can I show that she doesn't know better than the muppet? For him, having his head explode is like one of us sneezing because of seasonal allergies. Her only saying it once was supposed to be not nagging.
It's also that she doesn't know how Harry Potter should be characterized, she just doesn't like him. How can I make that detail clearer? I haven't read the books recently, so I don't know if she's seen enough of Snape to think that he's the best character.
For not doing her job, I decided that there wasn't much in the fanfiction to work with mission-wise, so it would make sense to not send it to the exorcists. I could change the recommendation. Is 'Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality' considered goodfic or badfic, because it's got a similar theme.
Sorry, I guess Alpha would be the more appropriate term. -
Point by point. by
on 2016-03-05 19:06:00 UTC
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The thing about characters who need to be/get taken down a peg or two is that they're great as secondary characters. Watching that happen from the outside is good. But writing a convincing protagonist who starts off haughty and gets knocked down into something more humble? Very difficult, and quite likely to put people off your character before you get to the change.
The muppet thing: what comes across from her is 'he is so stupid, but I will say nothing because I am better than that', and definitely not anything like 'I guess he knows best'. Which... y'know, isn't a likeable person.
Jumping out of order a bit: it's not about what her final decision was, I've got no opinion on that. The issue I have is with her thought process, which (from memory) went:
-"This Harry is better than the original, maybe I should leave it."
-"But it would be funny to have the agents hit him, so maybe I should send them in."
-"There isn't enough material, so I'll leave it."
The third decision is the only one she should be making. Yes, it's what she settled on - but she considered going with either of the other two, and those are emphatically not her job.
If you order a salad in a restaurant, and after you eat your server comes to you and says, "I thought about bringing you a steak instead because I figured it'd be nicer, but in the end I decided not to," that server would not be doing their job. That's what Kelly did here.
The characterisation of Harry is an extension of the same issue. It's fine that she doesn't like him - but she goes on about it so strongly that it feels like 'and neither should anyone else, the idiots'. Which, again, not a likeable character.
There is nothing here which makes her inconsistent. But she's a perfectly consistent and utterly unlikeable person who is going to be fired before too long.
hS -
Re: Point by point. by
on 2016-03-08 15:26:00 UTC
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I decided to human her up a bit and give her some warmth. Hopefully I'll let you know how she turns out.
Do normal people not struggle with their personal feelings before doing the right thing? -
Good question. by
on 2016-03-08 15:50:00 UTC
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I would answer that people who are capable of holding down a job do not normally waver over whether to do their job or do the exact opposite.
Part of my job is writing risk assessments for a chemical plant. At no point have I thought "it might be cool to see something explode, so I'll put this down as hazardless instead of flammable". Because, y'know, doing it right is what they pay me for.
hS -
Speaking as somebody who did make it work? by
on 2016-03-05 20:05:00 UTC
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Yeah, it's a difficult balance to strike. However, I'd almost say you don't go far enough. The Notary's an awful, horrendous, totally insufferable prig - but it's the extent of those qualities, pushing her almost to the point of villain protagonist status, that makes her compelling. Kelly, by contrast, just comes off as a self-absorbed pub bore with delusions of grandeur. To be honest, I think she'd genuinely be better off in an Action Department with someone to file her edges off - force her to actually care for someone other than herself.
Additionally, from the Intelligence report:-
"Offences against Canon: Harry Potter is actually being somewhat intelligent instead of having more machismo than sense."
...
No. Just... no. -
Re: Speaking as somebody who did make it work? by
on 2016-03-08 15:28:00 UTC
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Yeah, I think I turned her snark up a bit too high.
I'll change the report, or make it so that she comes to her decision to leave it alone without writing a report. -
You, in this context, refers to Bramandin. Misclicked. Derp. (nm by
on 2016-03-05 20:08:00 UTC
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I don't think HPMOR is missionable. by
on 2016-03-05 06:20:00 UTC
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It's book-length and it isn't flaming-eyespork levels of terrible. Considering the length, the generally good SPAG, and the fact that it would be way too easy to slip into ideology-bashing, it's probably best to leave it alone.
...yeah, I liked it when I was younger. I didn't have the best taste. And while it would probably be *nice* to see an "I'm-not-sure-how-I-liked-that" get sporked, it's just not PPC-level uniform awfulness from what I remember. Though I hear that it got more sexist? Anyways, I'm rambling and my shameful half-memories are probably not relevant.
Basically, it'd probably make a boring mission. Even most standard "terrible SPAG, no plot, random OOC shipping" badfics would make boring missions, and those generally aren't the length of a novel.