Seconded, with a slight expansion.

Subject: Seconded, with a slight expansion.
Author: Scapegrace
Posted on: 2016-02-23 08:18:00 UTC

Key's points are good, but there's one other thing to bear in mind: the fact that fanon can only become canon if you don't send the author your work. Let's say that for the sake of argument you send Rick Riordan a fanfic detailing... Iunno, a Yoruba pantheon and its characters interacting with the existing demigods, Legacies, &c. Now say, quite by chance, Riordan is writing a new series based around the Yoruba pantheon. If he publishes then it's theoretically possible, depending on how good of a lawyer you have, that the fanfic author could wrest the rights of the series away from Riordan.

And this is a Not Good Very Bad Thing.

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And interesting perspective on fanfiction by Data Junkie on 2016-02-22 04:37:00 UTC Reply

I recently saw this posted on Scott Lynch's Tumblr: "Also, I believe it’s important to cut me out of the fanfic approval loop. When you write fanfic about my worlds or characters, you should be completely ignoring the questions of what I’d want or what I’d do. Fanfic is your chance to go happily nuts with the elements of my stuff that you like, seasoned with elements that serve your own fascinations and pleasures. I’m flattered that you might like to run your fanfic by me, but really, I am immaterial to it. Embrace the freedom to make it for yourself and your fellow readers in a canon-free environment." (Scott Lynch, some of you may know, is the author responsible for the Gentleman Bastard sequence and the Queen of the Iron Sands online novel.)

I found it interesting because it basically runs contrary to the PPC's view on canon and its importance in fanfiction, because it basically says "Fanfiction is about having fun, don't worry about canon, do what you want."

This isn't necessarily contradictory to the PPC's views by Cat-on-the-Keyboard on 2016-02-23 03:51:00 UTC Reply

Okay, I’ve been thinking about this a lot since you posted it, particularly your note at the bottom. From what I’ve seen of the PPC, our philosophy does not run counter to Lynch’s statement. If the PPC believed that deviation from canon was intrinsically bad, we would have no concept of goodfic. No fanfic will perfectly fit the canon, since fanfic is, by definition, not canon. From the missions and wiki articles I’ve read, the PPC seems to primarily target bad writing. Going “happily nuts with the elements [. . .] that you like” does not mean it’s acceptable to put zero effort into writing good characters or be too lazy to use comprehensible grammar and expect praise for your writing skills. Nor does it make it ethical to spread dangerous misconceptions about what makes a healthy relationship, how women “should” behave, or basic anatomy. Nor does it make it okay to write a completely unrelated story and name your OCs after characters from whatever canon they most resemble in an attempt to attract more people to your story (I swear people do this).

Notably, Lynch does not say there should be no fanfiction approval loop; he just wants to be left out of it. “Completely ignoring the questions of what [the creator would] want” does not mean completely ignoring the questions of what your audience wants. Readers generally want stories which are legible, don’t reinforce thought patterns which can endanger them, and aren’t cynical and manipulative (I do, anyway. This opinion is seconded by my sister). And if you’re claiming that something is fanfiction, your readers are probably expecting it to bear at least a passing resemblance to the canon, or at least to be related to it in an interesting way. If you promise the reader (for example) that a character is in the story, you are breaking that promise if none of the characters in the story bear a resemblance to that character. The PPC deals with the relationship between fanfiction authors and their readers. The relationship between canon creators and their fanfiction authors is dealt with by the creators’ lawyers.

(Also, the more I reread this quote, the more it seems like the author just wants people to stop sending him their fanfiction and is trying to be polite about it.)

Aaaaaand I just wrote this instead of working on my history project. I wonder if my teacher will let me turn it in for partial credit?

Yeah, but what about the in-universe PPC? (nm) by domirossi on 2016-02-24 19:14:00 UTC Reply

I think they'd be in broad agreement. by Huinesoron on 2016-02-25 15:47:00 UTC Reply

Remember that the departments have names like Bad Slash, Implausible Crossovers, and Improbable AUs. The PPC as an organisation has never had a problem with fanfic that deviates from the canon plot - just with fanfic that breaks the canon/plot continuum.

A story in which [Rolls canon-selection dice] Rey, Finn, and Poe are street urchins in Ankh-Morpork can be a good story, and be ignored by the PPC - provided those characters act the way they would if they'd been born into that situation. It's only when that story starts with Rey murdering Leia to steal her stuff, and Poe using BB-8 (who's a swamp dragon in this) as a football, that the PPC's attention is drawn - not because of the story being AU, but because the AU doesn't make sense.

The canon plot is not sacred; fanfic can change it. Even characterisation can be altered and still leave a good story. But whatever you do, you need to be able to explain and justify it, in terms of what we know about the canon.

Otherwise, it's not fanfiction. It's just a story using someone else's ideas.

hS

This is a great analysis. by PoorCynic on 2016-02-24 15:22:00 UTC Reply

Nothing lose to add on my part, really. You've pretty much nailed on my thoughts on the subject. Well done!

Thank you! (nm) by Cat-on-the-Keyboard on 2016-02-26 06:57:00 UTC Reply

Seconded, with a slight expansion. by Scapegrace on 2016-02-23 08:18:00 UTC Reply

Key's points are good, but there's one other thing to bear in mind: the fact that fanon can only become canon if you don't send the author your work. Let's say that for the sake of argument you send Rick Riordan a fanfic detailing... Iunno, a Yoruba pantheon and its characters interacting with the existing demigods, Legacies, &c. Now say, quite by chance, Riordan is writing a new series based around the Yoruba pantheon. If he publishes then it's theoretically possible, depending on how good of a lawyer you have, that the fanfic author could wrest the rights of the series away from Riordan.

And this is a Not Good Very Bad Thing.

Yes, that is Very Very Bad, Potentially Catastrophic by Cat-on-the-Keyboard on 2016-02-26 06:57:00 UTC Reply

Yes! Excellent point. Does anyone know of an incident similar to this actually happening? It seems to me like it would plunge the world of literature into chaos and ultimately have to result in a complete restructuring of copyright law.

Marion Zimmer Bradley. by Huinesoron on 2016-02-26 13:00:00 UTC Reply

(I'm pretty sure this is what Scapegrace is thinking of.)

Marion Zimmer Bradley was super supportive of fanfic, and would read any that was sent to her - up until she got into a legal fight over whether she could use ideas which had appeared in a fanfic she read. The details are apparently a bit murky - accounts range from 'she had to cancel a novel she'd already written because a fan sent her a story with similar ideas' to 'she was inspired by the fanfic and refused to give [sufficient] credit, so the novel was cancelled' - but the upshot was that MZB came down hard against fanfic.

It didn't result in a restructuring of copyright law. ;)

hS

Then again, you may be wrecking an author's.entire work. by DCCCV on 2016-02-22 05:50:00 UTC Reply

I always thought about that whenever my friend decides to cross everything together. How do things go back to normal? Your stories should be in spirit, and things should generally return to status quo. How else can everyone else write a story in the same universe? Their point may be just as valid, but still...

Because it doesn't all happen in the same universe. *shrug* by TheShyIon on 2016-02-22 15:43:00 UTC Reply

Except in the PPC, but that's because, if it didn't, there would be no reason for the PPC to go killing Sues and exorcising canons.

And I highly disagree with the status quo bit. Things don't need to go back to normal -- and things going back to normal risks being bad character development, too. People are changed by their experiences, and having characters be unaffected by a plot is taking a good deal of interest out of the plot.

Going back to normal... by Anonymous on 2016-02-22 22:46:00 UTC Reply

There was a book that I pulled off of the Library's 'new books' shelf in the 90's. I didn't know about fanfiction at the time, save for Star Trek novellas.

Star Trek had a rule that the books didn't influence the series and the characters snapped back afterwards. I still have a head-canon that Diane Duane got Spock's birth right and that the movie version was some twisted illusion.

Back to the book I found, I wasn't familiar with the series. At the end, it had some deus ex machina erasing their memories and one of the characters complaining that it wasn't fair to have an adventure that they couldn't remember. The other character got a new sword and callously renamed it because he never used a sword that wasn't named {Blah.}

My favorite scene was when the fencer had to use the {two-handed heavy sword} and the other character complained about wielding a sewing needle.

I don't think it's worth going onto the tropes media identification page.

--Brandi is still thinking.

See... by Data Junkie on 2016-02-22 06:02:00 UTC Reply

That's the thing though, what you write has no effect on what someone else writes unless they decide it does. The existence of My Immortal does not diminish the works of your favorite author in the HP-verse.

That is, until the bad fanon takes over by Cat-on-the-Keyboard on 2016-02-23 04:00:00 UTC Reply

Widespread bad fanon can actually damage -- not the canon itself, but the way people view the canon. For example, characters in Hetalia are usually very well developed, but many have aggressive bad fanon versions (e.g. ZoophilicWorkaholic!Germany, StereotypicalDragQueen!Poland, InterchangeableRapists!France and Prussia, to name only a few of my least favorite), which many in the fandom see as their true personalities. This is why I’ve been withdrawing from the fandom: the badfic was warping my personal enjoyment of the continuum (what if Germany does have sex with his dogs?). The PPC’s depiction of the nature of fanfic is silly and not how it works in reality, but it's not completely unfounded.

Plus... by Anonymous on 2016-02-23 04:42:00 UTC Reply

I've heard that some people just read fanfiction instead of watching the show.

Very true. by Huinesoron on 2016-02-22 09:43:00 UTC Reply

But on the flip side: if you're not going to try and stick reasonably close to canon, why're you writing fanfiction at all? I can write a story where Harry Potter is an aggressive reporter whose cleaner is a shy, slender man named Legolas (and then, one assumes, they do the sex)... but since those characters bear no resemblence to Harry Potter and Legolas, I might as well name them Herbert Rankine and Alfredo and make it original fiction.

hS

Oh, hS, don't be silly. That's not what fanfiction is for! by Scapegrace on 2016-02-22 09:52:00 UTC Reply

As we all know, fanfiction is strictly for the purpose of having Legolas run a coffee shop in New York attended by BBC!Sherlock and Draco Malfoy and whoever else the author thinks would look cute being disgustingly sickly with their boyfriend while wearing matching hideous jumpers.

=]

50 shades? by Anonymous on 2016-02-22 22:30:00 UTC Reply

Fanfiction does draw more casual traffic than original fiction.

When I first began writing fiction, I tended to steal characters and change their names before getting them wrong anyway. Then there was X-men and the Pegasus series crossed with a story about a house on the underground railroad.

As a side note... I once saw a fanfiction where Legolas was going to make pancakes. I got distracted before actually reading it, so I don't know if it was believable or shenanigans.

Oh, it is most certainly shenanigans. by Huinesoron on 2016-02-23 08:48:00 UTC Reply

Though the shenanigans are written to a theme, and the characters are all gently parodied in the same kind of way as OFUM did.

Yeah, Pancakes! was quite the hit back in its day. Fifty chapters and over a thousand reviews? Mm-hmm.

hS
Ah, yes. Pancakes. Or should I say, 'Pancakes!'? by JulyFlame on 2016-02-23 07:35:00 UTC Reply

The fic in question was written by the board's very own Huinesoron.

July, who worked at an IHOP once upon a time
So is there any rel point to sporking badfic in the end? (nm) by Silenthunder on 2016-02-22 22:46:00 UTC Reply

Re: So is there any rel point to sporking badfic in the end? by Data Junkie on 2016-02-23 03:55:00 UTC Reply

Depending on who you ask, no. I know a lot of writers, very good ones even, who get very upset with people who make fun of fanfiction that isn't very obviously troll-fic.
"Make a bad ting good." -- Rastamouse by Scapegrace on 2016-02-23 03:48:00 UTC Reply

(For future reference, Rastamouse is a real children's television programme. And it's AWESOME. =] )

The reason I send my agents (and occasionally Ix's) off to badfic worlds is simple; I am firmly of the belief that I could do a better job of entertaining people than they could. Not, I hasten to add, necessarily in a canonicity sense (my memory has too many holes in it for that), but rather that I feel I am more adept at making people laugh because I can make them laugh on purpose.

If that makes any sense at all.

Which, this being nearly four in the morning, it may not. =]
For fun. Isn't that point enough? (nm) by Iximaz on 2016-02-22 22:53:00 UTC Reply

It seems like a respect thing, to me. by Larfen J. Stocke, esq on 2016-02-22 09:41:00 UTC Reply

Fans see a rubbish, poorly-written Mary Sue story as somebody essentially exclaiming to the Heavens 'I think that the themes and characterisation in this work are dumb and not as good as what I can do with it!'
But, obviously, with more spelling errors and 'quirky' 'humour'.

From that perspective, it's understandable that people wouldn't be too happy about badfic.
People respect their works, and they don't like it when other people slag said works off, whether through being a genuine nobhead or through ignorance.
I know I'm not fond of things I like being insulted. (I, personally, don't find badfic all that insulting. Maybe I'm just naive, though.)

If I called Harry Potter a pillock, it wouldn't change anything about the series, but I doubt the fans would be overly happy with me.

Also, in my opinion, My Immortal makes the series better.
It's a work of art.

Shouldn't be too hard to get people to comply to that. (nm) by Larfen J. Stocke, esq on 2016-02-22 04:50:00 UTC Reply