It's a bit complicated.

Subject: It's a bit complicated.
Author: Outhra
Posted on: 2013-07-08 13:25:00 UTC

Oh, Neil Gaiman is one of my favorite authors, period. I've always enjoyed, to quote an obscure character from an obscurer canon, places dark and places strange, and he creates such places so well. You should read his short story collections, too. I own Fragile Things, and it is awesome.

Okay, as to the relationship between the two... that's where the complication I mentioned comes in. See, nominally it's a sequel, but the only character that shows up in both is Mr. Nancy, and it may not even be the same Mr. Nancy. In the American Gods continuum, gods have multiple iterations for each new location their believers sacrificed to them or told stories about them or what have you in, and it's never exactly made clear whether the Mr. Nancy in Anansi Boys is the American Anansi from American Gods or the British Anansi. The Mr. Nancy in here lives in Florida, but since he's part of and about as powerful as the British iteration of the West African pantheon that shows up in later parts of the book, he could be either, and it's never really elaborated on.
He's described similarly in both books, but the Mr. Nancy of Anansi Boys acts a bit differently than he did in American Gods. As a counterpoint, Mr. Nancy in American Gods mentions a son, which could be Fat Charlie from the way he's described, but could just as easily be someone else.

Still, divine powers operate the same way, it's got a similar tone and structure, and the Backstage appears again with a new location, the Caves at the Beginning of the World that house the West African pantheon, so it's still the same continuum. The events of American Gods aren't mentioned by anyone, but that's probably because most of the story takes place in Britain, and Wednesday never went that far when he was recruiting the unworshipped gods.

And no, you weren't rambling. That last post was all of four sentences. It takes a lot more than that to be rambling about something.

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Wanted: Partner for Agent Avery by cedarcopse on 2013-07-06 03:01:00 UTC Reply

I'm thinking about getting back into writing missions and non-mission PPC fanfiction, but I need a partner for my agent.

Agent Avery is a former bit character who has a rather unfortunate ability. She can't die. She can be maimed, disabled, and very close to killed, but she doesn't die. She can regenerate by consuming extraneous Words. But, it's a rather painful process.

Otherwise, she's completely unremarkable. Avery isn't particularly athletic, smart, or pretty. In fact, there's no description for her hair color, so she just shaved all of her uncolored hair off.

Any takers?

Actually, if no one else has already offered... by DawnFire on 2013-07-12 10:56:00 UTC Reply

I may be interested. I mean, I'm not going to have anything resembling consistent internet for at least another week, and the week and a half after that is going to be pretty hectic, as I'm flying home at the end of it, but I'm still interested. And will probably regret that, considering how much I'm already writing, but still.

I'll admit to only having skimmed the discussion below (hence why I'm not entirely sure if anyone else has replied as a taker), but she does sound fascinating. In fact, I may have a partner for her--Agent Ariel. He may be meant for ESAS, though, depending on how much his powers get diminished; I don't know if that's an issue or not. If it is, we could try Agent Dawn McKenna, but she's a) fairly insane, b) the PPC liaison for SBEI (the Avengers-verse OFU), and c) gets visits from her author, which could get awkward for Avery. On the other hand, it could stabilize Dawn a little, so...I don't know. Whatever you like.

Ariel is a former Supernatural-verse angel. He ended up in the PPC due to the collapse of a badfic, where he was accidentally invoked instead of Uriel, and then didn't get out in time--possibly because he's not mentioned in SPN canon, possibly because the Laws decided that the Little Mermaid would be more amusing to have onscreen. I'm not really sure--his backstory's still being written. He does end up in the DMS, though, and then possibly in ESAS, depending on what conclusions I draw from the last few episodes of SPN, among other things. He's probably going to Fall rather a lot, though.

Dawn is based loosely on me. She quotes everything that comes into her head, and acts immaturely on missions if she's around people she trusts to hold her back. She wears crazy nail polish that's often sparkly, has a pet tribble and two mini-Balrogs, and often gets misfiled missions or is temporarily partnered with people from a different department. She also takes missions in a larger number of fandoms than Ariel, unless he spends several days reading and watching stuff. (In terms of fandoms, from what you listed we share HP and LotR. On the other hand, you wrote 'etc', so it's quite possible we share several more).

Also, what gave Avery that ability? And when she regenerates, does she change her appearance, or does it stay the same?

So...yes. I'd like to offer Agent Ariel and Agent Dawn as potential partners for Agent Avery. Your move :)

~DF

Yessssss by cedarcopse on 2013-07-12 20:46:00 UTC Reply

I'd love to have Avery work with either Ariel or Dawn, or both. Do you have a preference?

Avery was given that ability by virtue of being poorly written. 'There was a woman, too. But, she didn't die.' And that was all that was written about her. So, she's kind of written permanently into the fabric of the multiverse.

Her appearance will change depending on what she absorbs. But, not much.

*excited jumping about* by DawnFire on 2013-07-13 22:43:00 UTC Reply

Wonderful! Uh, depending on when you want Agent Avery to have joined the PPC, she could actually start out working with Dawn, Ariel, and Dawn's partner (now former), Kozar (he's a Klingon). Alternatively...well, in the discussion below I saw it mentioned that Avery might do well with someone who isn't a World One human, so Ariel might be the best option, especially as Dawn seems to do fairly well partnerless and Ariel could really use a partner...so maybe we could try a mission where she's working with both Dawn and Ariel and then probably switch to just Ariel? That could be fun, and it would give us an idea of how the three even mesh together.

Oh, wow. What continuum was her story in?

Got it.

I won't have internet for the next week, so don't worry if you don't hear back from me for a bit :) But I'm really looking forward to this! It's going to be awesome XD

~DF

Actually by cedarcopse on 2013-07-13 23:01:00 UTC Reply

I didn't take Avery directly from someone else's fanfiction. I sort of have in my mind a typical fic that she would have come from. Things get kind of twisty and meta around there. I had an original fanfic for Rowen. But, I never found one for Avery. I just sort of made it up. I wonder if there are rules against that...

Oh, cool by DawnFire on 2013-07-14 06:44:00 UTC Reply

And there aren't. There's an article on the wiki- it may be the permission one, or more likely the mission-writing one- that says you can make up where a former badfic character came from but you might get better results if you take them from an actual badfic. My Agent Agen____t comes from an Avengers badfic that I made up (and actually wrote a very short passage from). So yeah, no rules against it :)

Hi ho, hi ho, it's off to another internetless week I go...ah well. It's worth it.

~DF

Re: Oh, cool by Outhra on 2013-07-15 00:27:00 UTC Reply

That's right, because if there was something from an authentic badfic, you have sort-of backstory to draw on, as opposed to... just making it up, I guess. Which is what most people do with backstory for their characters. How is this worse again?

And oooh, Ariel's backstory. I was wanting to finish it, and then it got all bogged down with arc words and general messes and me trying to be dramatic and I had to look myself in the face (which is hard to do without a mirror, let me tell you) and say "No, none of that right now! Except maybe the drama. And even that shouldn't be everywhere, or none of it's going to look significant!", and then there were a few weeks where I did absolutely nothing about it. I am ashamed of those weeks and their laziness.

Anyway, to wrap up, I am going to start writing that backstory again tomorrow afternoon. I have been on my hiatus for too long. Too long, I say!

Oh, hello, Cedarcopse. Nice to see you again. Yes, I am writing Ariel's backstory, even though he's technically DawnFire's character and was created as a byproduct of one of Lily Winterwood's missions. It's not as complicated as it sounds, so it'll hopefully all make sense in the end.
You can pre-read what I have already if you like, since Dawn seems to be edging toward letting you use Ariel as Avery's partner, and also to see if what I have already is good or not. I already know I'm going to need substantial rewriting on the beginning scenes at least, on account of one OOC archangel and a second archangel acting out another's canon-typical behavior in said scenes, so if you want to see it, let the concrit fly.

Actually the idea is to cowrite :) (nm) by DawnFire on 2013-07-15 11:23:00 UTC Reply

Co-write which part? by Outhra on 2013-07-15 14:07:00 UTC Reply

You co-write Avery and Dawn/Ariel's missions with Cedarcopse, or you co-write the rest of the backstory with me?
Because if it's the second one, I've already almost got it done solo. I could use some help with the bits I got wrong, of course.
If it's the former, I had thought their missions would be co-written. It makes sense, after all. One is one person's character, one is another person's, and co-writing is fun. Add all three components together and it's a natural option.

*sigh* by DawnFire on 2013-07-16 11:30:00 UTC Reply

This is what happens when you use someone else's phone to write and then they have to go. I meant cowriting with cedarcopse- just wanted to clarify that since your wording made it sound like she'd be the one writing Ariel.

As to Ariel's backstory, I'd be happy to come back on board to advise, although I won't be able to until next week, most likely, and even then I might not have so much time until the very end of the month- last week or so in this country and all. And now she needs the phone back so...bye again :)

~DF

What exactly are you asking for? by Outhra on 2013-07-06 03:44:00 UTC Reply

Forgive me if I seem a bit thick in asking this, but what sort of responses are you looking for this topic? Are you looking for someone who will co-write with you, some ideas for creating a partner to write alongside Avery, or for someone to give a character to you to work with, or possibly some combination of those? Just to clarify.

Also, a few questions of my own.

What is Avery? Species, continuum of origin, etcetera. The name sounds human, but non-humans can be known to use human names in certain continua, so I'm not sure.

Her semi-immortality is likely a side effect of her bit character origins, but what exactly caused it? Being unable to die isn't exactly on the same level as growing a third arm or impromptu teleportation in terms of Word World errors. Was there a particularly dire typo, was she caught up in something, was there a Suvian experiment that went horribly wrong, some fourth thing?

What do you mean, "consuming" the Words? Does she snatch them out of the air and physically consume them? Is it a "join me, be part of my power" deal, and she fuses with them? Do they enter into her body through her skin? Does she drain the material of reality from a badfic? I'm just trying to see mentally what this would look like.

What does this do to the Word World she's in when she saps Words from it? Since a story is held up by its Words, wouldn't consuming them distort it in some way?

What does the regeneration process do to her? Is her old body converted into a new body, do the Words build her a new body/rebuild her old one, or do the details just depend on the circumstances of the damage she's trying to regenerate from?

Re: What exactly are you asking for? by cedarcopse on 2013-07-06 04:07:00 UTC Reply

Yes, I'm looking for someone to co-write with. Or, if no one is interested, a character that needs a home.

Avery is technically human. She's the result of only being mentioned in two sentences: There was a woman, too. But, she didn't die, yet.

Avery can't consume just any World Words. She's not that powerful. She can only take things like extraneous commas, redundant adjectives, and words that aren't necessary to the sentence.

What happens depends on the kind of words that are used. If they come from description, she might temporarily gain detail to herself and a dress with rubies and diamonds sewn into the cloth might just turn into a dress with rubies in the cloth. Actions would alter her mood. Although, she's always grumpy after regeneration. The Words rebuild her old body, instead of giving her a new one. Basically, the details depend on the situation.

Well, here are some of my thoughts. by World-Jumper on 2013-07-06 04:24:00 UTC Reply

When I imagine agent pairs, my mind jumps to some form of opposite in behavior or physical appearance. In this case, it seems that Avery is a form of blank slate, a Generic Female Human if you will. Therefore, I would craft a character that is very dynamic, perhaps of a fantastic race from another world. I cannot co-write with anyone at the moment, but I can come up with a character if you want. All I need to know is what department she is going to work in.

Add on a little by NotHimAgain on 2013-07-06 17:59:00 UTC Reply

How would Avery develop as a character? Would she just stay the same, a blank slate? Or would she begin to develop personality traits?

It depends on what she absorbs by cedarcopse on 2013-07-06 20:17:00 UTC Reply

I think of her as kind of an experiment. Depending on how her missions and out of mission fiction goes, she'll change and grow as a character. But, how she does that depends entirely on her environment and what she takes away from it, and the other characters she interacts with.

More details by Desdendelle on 2013-07-07 12:20:00 UTC Reply

I know that I can't co-write with you ATM (army absorbing all of my energy and stuff), but I imagine that the fandoms and department(s) you're planning to write missions in might interest any prospective co-writers.

Re: More details by cedarcopse on 2013-07-08 01:28:00 UTC Reply

I'd probably be doing Department of Mary Sues missions. The issue with saying a fandom is that I'm pretty much open to anything. I'm into a lot of fandoms. I guess the standards apply:

Lord of the Rings
Harry Potter
Harry Dresden
Yu Yu Hakusho
Gundam Wing
Etc.

In case you can't find anyone... by Outhra on 2013-07-08 02:09:00 UTC Reply

I could look around the wiki and round up some unused or otherwise neglected DMS Agents(or DF Agents that might have transferred to DMS). Then, you could see if there were any you liked, and then ask the Board (or their writer, if said writer is still around) if you could adopt them.
Would you be interested in that, or would you rather wait to see if you can find a co-writer before deciding on an alternative?

Honestly by cedarcopse on 2013-07-08 02:19:00 UTC Reply

I'd rather wait on a co-writer before adopting another agent. But, thanks for offering to help.

All right. by Outhra on 2013-07-08 02:44:00 UTC Reply

I'll be available if you change your mind.

I'm interested in seeing where this ends up. An Agent that warps reality, even a Sue's reality, to feed and heal, changing in the process, would raise several interesting points, especially since Sues feed on reality in a similar way, but by creating flowery prose and pointless asides instead of destroying them. Since Avery shares some characteristics with her quarry, but opposes it in other ways, such as lack of description as opposed to over-description, she could effectively be a foil for the commoner sorts of Sue if taken in a particular way.

That was my general concept for Avery by cedarcopse on 2013-07-08 02:53:00 UTC Reply

So I'm interested to see where it goes as well. Is it the powers that make Mary-Sues Mary-Sues, or is it more the attitude? I'd like to explore that a lot, since one might say she's edging towards Suedome in her own way. Although, her litmus test comes back as a solid non-sue.

She seems more to be edging toward a different species. by Outhra on 2013-07-08 03:30:00 UTC Reply

She absorbs pieces of the world around her, changing and adapting based on what she consumes. Based only on that sentence, she sounds less like a human and more like a vorcha or some otherworldly horror from the plane that spawned Vom the Hungering. Or like Everyman. She actually sounds a lot more like Everyman than a vorcha. They can only adapt once.

As for the bit with whether the powers or the attitude make a Sue, my opinion would edge more toward the latter. You can have a character far more overpowered than Sues tend to be, and have them be non-Sues, just based on their persona. Sues have vast cosmic powers, and never use them like a person would. They use them to ingrain themselves in the lives of others, change their personalities so that the Sue can get her way, and act as though they always behaved that way.

Non-Sues with vast power behave like a person would behave with those powers, and act or react realistically regardless of the powers. Q and Doc Scratch are omnipotent, and they aren't Stuish by most standards, because they act the part.

Perhaps an even closer parallel is Spider, from Neil Gaiman's book Anansi Boys. He's got Aura of Smooth (though it's not called that in-story, for obvious reasons) of an absolutely ridiculous level, he can teleport, he has various unexplained empathic connections, and he's related to an ex-deity, but he realizes the problems inherent to his divine traits, faces problems that he can't handle using his abilities alone, and at some points is even guilty about using his Aura of Smooth to change people's personalities. He's not a Stu even though he has literal godly power, especially since when you read the sections from his point of view, he's actually a believable and somewhat likable character, though in a different way than most.

Sues don't behave believably, the reader is given no reason to care about them, they use their Aura of Smooth to warp reality and strip away everything about it they dislike, and in the process, make the canon they defile look less interesting. At that point, any other Suvian abilities are, to invoke a slang term, just gravy.

But that's my viewpoint, anyway. Others will have their own, and most likely not go on about Neil Gaiman's works quite as much while saying it.

I admit, I'm interested by cedarcopse on 2013-07-08 17:00:00 UTC Reply

The idea that she's an otherworldly horror in the form of a generic human female is intriguing. I also like the idea that she has far reaching, horrible powers, but has no idea how to use them and wouldn't want to, anyway. In that way, she's similar to my other 'generic human female' agent, Rowen--who was made to wait forever by a Mary-Sue. Literally.

I guess that makes them horrors created by 'Sues due to bad writing.
Ooh, you're a Gaiman fan too? by Ailavyn Siniyash on 2013-07-08 08:33:00 UTC Reply

I'm reading American Gods right now, and intend to read Anansi Boys right after, though I might get distracted by Neverwhere, or rereading Sandman, or really anything else. He's one of my favorite authors right now. Speaking of, though, what is the relationship of Anansi Boys and American Gods? I know they take place in the same continuum, but otherwise I'm curious.

... I'm rambling, aren't I? I'll shut up now.

-Aila

It's a bit complicated. by Outhra on 2013-07-08 13:25:00 UTC Reply

Oh, Neil Gaiman is one of my favorite authors, period. I've always enjoyed, to quote an obscure character from an obscurer canon, places dark and places strange, and he creates such places so well. You should read his short story collections, too. I own Fragile Things, and it is awesome.

Okay, as to the relationship between the two... that's where the complication I mentioned comes in. See, nominally it's a sequel, but the only character that shows up in both is Mr. Nancy, and it may not even be the same Mr. Nancy. In the American Gods continuum, gods have multiple iterations for each new location their believers sacrificed to them or told stories about them or what have you in, and it's never exactly made clear whether the Mr. Nancy in Anansi Boys is the American Anansi from American Gods or the British Anansi. The Mr. Nancy in here lives in Florida, but since he's part of and about as powerful as the British iteration of the West African pantheon that shows up in later parts of the book, he could be either, and it's never really elaborated on.
He's described similarly in both books, but the Mr. Nancy of Anansi Boys acts a bit differently than he did in American Gods. As a counterpoint, Mr. Nancy in American Gods mentions a son, which could be Fat Charlie from the way he's described, but could just as easily be someone else.

Still, divine powers operate the same way, it's got a similar tone and structure, and the Backstage appears again with a new location, the Caves at the Beginning of the World that house the West African pantheon, so it's still the same continuum. The events of American Gods aren't mentioned by anyone, but that's probably because most of the story takes place in Britain, and Wednesday never went that far when he was recruiting the unworshipped gods.

And no, you weren't rambling. That last post was all of four sentences. It takes a lot more than that to be rambling about something.

Ai! 'Tis complicated indeed! by Ailavyn Siniyash on 2013-07-09 09:48:00 UTC Reply

Come to think of it, when you start a sentence with an apostrophe, are you supposed to also capitalize the letter after it, or does the apostrophe count as a capitalized letter? I'm genuinely curious, and haven't got an English around to explain things to me.

I actually have Fragile Things out from the library, so it will get read sooner or later. He is amazing.
...I've been getting into Doctor Who recently, and I think one of the things that sort of catapulted me into the canon was the fact that he'd written some episodes for it.

Ooh, that's very interesting... And confusing, but it makes a perfect amount of sense anyways. So: same continuum, but otherwise practically no contact?

And that's good. I just sort of thought I was because I have a tendency to do that when I'm talking, and sometimes it translates to the keyboard. You never really know.

-Aila

Well, from what I've seen... by DawnFire on 2013-07-12 11:01:00 UTC Reply

...the apostrophe does not count as a capital letter. In fact, I've never seen it count as one, quite probably because it's a punctuation mark. I'm not an English Major, though, so I suppose I could be wrong...

Neil Gaiman and Doctor Who *dances around happily* And I loved Anansi Boys, so it's wonderful to see it discussed.

Bye now! :)

~DF

Well, that makes sense. by Ailavyn Siniyash on 2013-07-13 04:54:00 UTC Reply

Just checking, I suppose. I feel like I've seen it both ways, though.

*dances with Outhra* I know, right? I've finally found a way to watch at least some of the classic episodes (Thank you, TV Tropes!), and I've decided I really like Two's cape.

See ya!

-Aila