Different body, same mind...

Subject: Different body, same mind...
Author: Hardric
Posted on: 2015-10-18 07:18:00 UTC

Sorry for using this topic for asking my own questions, but since this is already one topic about the DORKS...

Spoilers, vague but real, about Dresden Files are coming.

How would this work with Dresdenverse wizards, sorcerers... Well mortal practitioners of magic.
Being able to use magic is something theoretically genetic in the Dresdenverse, but there is also the example of a body-snatching warlock who could use magic, even when she had new bodies who should not be able to use magic, and one of her victim who survived in a new body could always use magic, although she was really much weaker.
Does this mean that a practitioner would always be able to use it powers in an other body, although there would be a serious downgrade?
And there is the problem of the Walking Techbane too. How well would the DORKS, a really advanced piece of technology, fare around peoples who are screwing technology around them, and that the most advanced techs are the first casualties to this effect?

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So, a question about disguise generators... by ratbrainbasher on 2015-10-17 21:33:00 UTC Reply

Specifically, I know they modify an agent's physiology, but to what extent? Specifically, would they modify, or possibly regenerate, damaged nervous tissue? I'd assume so, because if it can give you Time Lord regeneration, then I'm pretty sure it would have no trouble doing that.

My pet theory: by Huinesoron on 2015-10-19 09:17:00 UTC Reply

The disguise generator directly maps each part of your body to part of the disguise. So, for instance, the lower-rear portion of an Entwife disguise was mapped to Acacia's buttock, and the arrow stayed in 'the same location' when she took it off.

This explains why regenerations take away your ability to change back: a regeneration changes every cell in your body, so the mapping suddenly makes no sense. Either your body is no longer mapped to anything, or all the correspondences are scrambled. The former would make it impossible to take the disguise off; the latter would reduce you to a puddle of goo if you did.

But the mapping clearly doesn't require you to have a similar body-part to map to: you could disguise as a spider without having eight limbs. If, say, you had a missing hand, a disguise could give you it back (presumably mapping to the end of your wrist) and make it fully functional - for as long as you have the disguise on. Same goes for nerve tissue.

So that's my theory: a disguise is a full conversion, and can give you anything you please.

hS
The way I see it... by Desdendelle on 2015-10-17 22:07:00 UTC Reply

Disguises are like being in another body for a bit while keeping your own mind. Key words are 'for a bit'. Disguises are a temporary thing. The only reason Tawaki, Tadkeeta and (more recently) the Aviator got to stick around as Time Lords is because they regenerated, and that means an entire new (and permanent) body.

In the situation you're describing, yeah, the disguise won't include damaged nerves unless for some reason it was set for them. It's not a permanent solution, though; for that you want Medical.

Different body, same mind... by Hardric on 2015-10-18 07:18:00 UTC Reply

Sorry for using this topic for asking my own questions, but since this is already one topic about the DORKS...

Spoilers, vague but real, about Dresden Files are coming.

How would this work with Dresdenverse wizards, sorcerers... Well mortal practitioners of magic.
Being able to use magic is something theoretically genetic in the Dresdenverse, but there is also the example of a body-snatching warlock who could use magic, even when she had new bodies who should not be able to use magic, and one of her victim who survived in a new body could always use magic, although she was really much weaker.
Does this mean that a practitioner would always be able to use it powers in an other body, although there would be a serious downgrade?
And there is the problem of the Walking Techbane too. How well would the DORKS, a really advanced piece of technology, fare around peoples who are screwing technology around them, and that the most advanced techs are the first casualties to this effect?

It's also a matter of study. by Calista on 2015-10-19 11:14:00 UTC Reply

Agents who disguised as Dresdenverse wizards probably wouldn't be able to do very much with their magical talent. Theoretically capable of using magic, they would still have to do the studying required to channel it properly.

It's kind of like how, if you disguise as a scientist, you don't automatically know science, even if you are smart enough to learn it.

On the bright side, this does mean the walking-techbane effect isn't as strong. The stronger the wizard, the more unreliable technology is for them. But disguising as any kind of walking techbane is probably just tempting the Ironic Overpower as it is.

I know about the study aspect. by Hardric on 2015-10-19 11:43:00 UTC Reply

I asked these questions because I intend to use a Dresdenverse sorceress as one of my Agents, so the knowledge about magic will definitely be here, and she's supposed to have a Council-level of strength, although she avoided them because of their... wonderful reputation amongst mortals practitioners.

Yeah, the Ironic Overpower has a potential field day here, that's why I was asking this question, having devices blowing up on every mission would get old really fast, and there would be problems in SF settings.

(For instance, the Whoniverse, on the negative side, it would be harming the poor TARDIS, on the plus side, Daleks and Cybermen would drop like flies. I know however that using this too much could end up a bit too Speshul, so I could not use this against every problem.)

Lower her power level, maybe? by Calista on 2015-10-19 16:30:00 UTC Reply

Would solve a lot of problems for you if she weren't Council-level. You wouldn't have to worry about tech breaking near as much, and you wouldn't have to worry about constantly challenging a powerful character.

Well... by Hardric on 2015-10-19 19:28:00 UTC Reply

I was thinking that the other answers to my questions covered this part of the problem, and that a little extra-unreliability of the tech used in PPC.

For the power level, I was thinking more along the lines of an Elaine Mallory than a Harry Dresden, so I didn't think it would be so much a problem.

I'm not exactly worried about the challenges, since all the canons won't condone the use of magic, the Laws are still something that must not be forgotten, and that when you see the power that characters can be swinging in places like the MegaTenverses or the Dresdenverse, a little extra insurance is not something so bad.

Lastly, this character is someone that I already created for a DF RPG, and I found this idea interesting.

However, I'll keep this advice in mind, and if it's really a problem, I'll be doing the downgrade.

Yeah, I agree with Calista. by To The Scapemobile! on 2015-10-20 13:51:00 UTC Reply

I'm not especially familiar with the Dresdenverse, despite making a joke about it in Wobbles's backstory. However, it's best to keep as low a power level as possible with stuff like this, at least in part because if your agent is hunting Sues, well, it could be problematic.

To put this in context, Wobbles The Clown has no magic at all, except maybe for general Weird Balloon Sculpture Powers, and she still has the downside of a Dresdenverse wizard. Think about it. =]

Alright, what about this? by Hardric on 2015-10-20 18:11:00 UTC Reply

Would a downgrade to a 'standard' sorceress be enough? Magic could still be used with a relatively wide spectrum, no access to really critical knowledge, the glitterbags could easily be stronger, and I could keep some aspects I would like to play with, like the tech potentially failing around, the Sight, the matter of the Laws, the extended lifespan with vanilla friends...

I don't want to write some unstoppable juggernaut, and the books make it clear that magic isn't the panacea. Besides, Dresdenverse practitioners need foci and some material for pulling the really bigs fireworks, and the way I'm going, the only item she kept is a coat enchanted for additional protection if things go really pear-shaped, and it only works for a short moment. And thaumaturgy won't help without a long preparation and samples of the target.

Going Suvian is the last thing I want, but I didn't think it could be seen like this. All in all, I saw other characters more powerful with magic, and I thought they worked fine, like William Grey for instance. Let me know if you think I should definitely scrap this idea.

...ESAS? by Calista on 2015-10-21 14:31:00 UTC Reply

What if you had a high-powered agent, but matched them up only with high-powered Sues?

I know we haven't used ESAS for a while, but it seems like a good place for a council-level Dresdenverse wizard. They're sent missions in high-power continua only, where the average power level matches theirs, and most ESAS agents are high-powered themselves.

Pros:
-You wouldn't have to depower your agent to challenge them.
-Your agent on mission would be average in a world that's high-powered, rather than high-powered in a world that's average.
-The Dresdeverse wizard's power relies very much on preparation and study, which means that the high-powered Suvians would still be able to catch your character off-guard, whereupon they would have to scramble to survive.
-Harry Dresden is a high-powered character in a high-powered world, so the conventions of the stories wouldn't have to change much.

Cons:
-There would be fewer missions available. ESAS only gets sent high-powered stuff; if there aren't any giant mechs, superheroes, demigods, etc., then you might find your agent idle for some time. (But high-power doesn't necessarily mean "difficult for the agents". That Autobot-Sue may still be so poorly written that she stands there like a dope while you blow her up with RPGs.)
-You would still face the difficulty of writing a high-powered character without the glitter. Power level in and of itself doesn't confer glitter, but it does get harder to write properly.
-Your character's intended partner might not be qualified for ESAS work, and you'd have to deal with that somehow--either re-partner them, or deal with a low-power character in a high-power world.

I don't know... by Hardric on 2015-10-21 17:29:00 UTC Reply

Resurrecting one Department for the sake of one character feels a bit too much Speshul Sueflake for me, and I don't really like the idea of limiting potentials missions.
Besides, I must admit that I'm thinking about going the World One avatar way for my second agent, and I'm hesitating between Floaters and Mary Sues, Freelance Division for them.

Let's say I'm going the way I said in my precedent post, with a sorceress who isn't council-level, but could take out the average vampire if it wants to drink her blood/life force, that I'm dropping her in HQ without foci and without magic supplies, meaning that would take her a long time for packing really nasty stuff, would she alright for the average DMS mission?
I don't mind depowering the character if it's necessary, but I hope I can keep the concept. If it doesn't work, I'll keep the character, but switch her to something else.

Last point, I said council-level, but I was thinking along the lines of a SF Harry, not the crazy awesome badass that almost killed Nicodemus three times, or accomplished his first assignment as Warden riding a zombie T-Rex. The character is in her mid-twenties and the beginning of her career, but if you think that's too much power...

Sorry if I'm dragging along this subject, or if I'm irritating you with these questions and propositions, but I don't want to create someone who won't fit in the PPC. Thanks for your time and your answers.

The age changes things, actually. by Calista on 2015-10-21 18:05:00 UTC Reply

Harry's what, fifty-some? Older? And he had Training From Hell, too.

Even if your character matches Harry Dresden in raw power, she's got less than half the experience. She'd be closer to Molly Carpenter than Dresden. Pre-Changes Molly, even.

She wouldn't have advantages like Bob (for knowledge), Mouse (as an early-warning system), the Nevernever (for escape/travel), or even a convenient model of Chicago. She also wouldn't be able to control her magic very well; remember how hard it was for Molly to learn control?

Your character would be like a sixteen-year-old with a new driver's license, behind the wheel of an elite race car. She has the power, but not the knowledge or the experience, and unlike a Sue, she has to gain them the hard way. She'd do the magical equivalent of poking along at 10 mph and stalling out because she couldn't figure out the manual transmission--sure, the potential's there, but right now, that's all it is, and it might even be a drawback because powerful magic is harder to handle than weaker, just like that race car is harder to learn to drive on than a poky Honda Civic with an automatic transmission.

I do wonder how a Dresdenverse wizard would develop their talents at high-tech HQ, without access to many other Dresdenverse magical practitioners (and thus not to very much relevant knowledge), but with access to the knowledge of a thousand worlds, all with different rules. I think such a person would eventually begin to develop a theory of the multiverse and the rules of Plot.

OT nitpick about the car analogy. by Sergio Turbo on 2015-10-21 22:36:00 UTC Reply

I'd like to point out that the manual transmission needs "figuring out" by newly licensed drivers only in America - here in Italy (and probably most Europe as well) you either learn to drive stick, or you DON'T get a license, so the analogy works only for American people.

*Sergio mutters something about having to drive stick to be actully considered driving and not just using the car*
His forties, actually. by Hardric on 2015-10-21 18:34:00 UTC Reply

But yeah, Training From Hell indeed, and he's supposed to have a raw power level who could lead him to the Senior Council someday.

The age I'm using here was based upon SF Dresden and Changes-Ghost Story Molly for the very reason of keeping overpowering out. She still got some basic training, and to be honest I was thinking of a desperate use of the Ways for dropping her to HQ, something she could not handle really well at all under high pressure, but was desperate enough to try. Plothole happened, and here she is.

The character I'm using as a base was mainly doing earth evocations, and could do water and spirit magic too, but was more an adept of crafting useful objects than a raw power road. Would it fit?

Last thing about the Laws, I know the Sues are supposed to be soulless, and I guess the First Law doesn't cover them then, but would it apply if the glitterbag is posing as a human?

Yeah, you are thinking about really interesting things here, but I'm not sure I could do them justice, I never thought about this rules of Plot thing, and I don't think I could apply it.

Speaking about Mouse, do you think that he could be the base for Dresdenverse minis?

Crafting is cool. by Calista on 2015-10-21 21:28:00 UTC Reply

I like the idea of a character who really doesn't have a lot of raw power to use in the field--maybe a basic shield or a basic attack, but nothing more powerful than bulletproof glass or a handgun would be--whose real strength lies in crafting objects. Dresden has a few enchanted items that help him out, but of course he also has raw power, enough of it that his crafting really only has to serve as a channel for his power. If your character is like a magical version of a techie, that could be quite interesting.

What I've noticed about Dresdenverse magic is that its efficacy is often quite dependent on what you're targeting with it, thus the knowledge-is-power aspect. Knowing your enemy is basically required for defeating them. Your character would have to know the canons inside and out if she wanted to create enchanted objects that will help her defeat the Sues. Magic probably changes depending on where you are, too. If it can be different depending on your Dresdenverse location (i.e., ley lines), and different depending on the culture where it's used (the walking techbane effect is largely a modern phenomenon)... then it can certainly be different depending on which continuum you're in.

Yes. Sues are soulless, and the first law doesn't protect them, no matter how human they look, any more than it would protect a White Court vampire. But say your agent kills a human anyway; how would the Council track them down? It's unlikely that the Council knows about the PPC. On the other hand, your agent would probably know better than to attract their attention to her activities, because the Council (or anyone in Dresdenverse) knowing about the PPC would be asking for trouble.

Soulgazes, by the way. Avoid them. If your wizard agent ever looks anyone in the eye, they get to know that other person, and the other person knows them, in great detail. And that detail can't be forgotten. Neuralyzers would be useless. If she ever ends up exchanging a soulgaze with a canon, she's automatically given that character unerasable knowledge of the PPC.

Regarding minis: I don't think Mouse is a good Dresdenverse mini because Mouse isn't an antagonist, or a monster; he's just a big dog with Spidey Sense and unusual intelligence. We already have Sparklewolves and Puppies of Baskerville, so keeping the dog-type minis down would be a good thing.

I don't really have a good idea for the mini, but some possibilities:
-Demons. Come in multiple types, shapes, etc., which can be varied according to which name got misspelled.
-Skinwalkers. Creepy, yes--but it's Balrog-level powerful and definitely a monstrous villain. Its shapechanging power might make for good comedy.
-Fey creatures--maybe Gruffs, or various members of the Wild Hunt.
-Ghosts. Not quite villains, but they are echoes created by violent deaths. Maybe they could be created by plot holes, too; if Harry Dresden can create his own ghost via almost-a-plot-hole resuscitation...

Anyway, if you find the first Dresdenverse mini, it's really up to you, but I really think you should get creative; Mouse is wonderful, I love Mouse, we all love Mouse, but another dog mini would be a bit repetitive.

Thanks for the answers. by Hardric on 2015-10-21 21:48:00 UTC Reply

Like I said, I'm using an old DF RPG character as a basis, and I found the idea of someone who had a knack for crafting enchanted objects and potions was interesting. She had decent firepower with evocations, but the objects were packing more power, even with foci.

So, a stalagmite or gravity can crush the glitterbag? Good. However, I'm more worried about the effect that lawbreaking has on the soul that the Wardens. Heck, dropping a Sue lawbreaker in the Wardens' Panic Room in Edinburgh would be so funny to watch.

Yeah, I know about the soulgaze, dangerous stuff here. However, I think that using the Sight on Sues could be bad too. I don't want to imagine their "true form"; sure it would be brain-wrecking... so perfect for an unsuspicious Agent.

For the mini, what about a Pixie like Toot-Toot, it could fill the bill, right? Za Lord Guards for everyone!

Thanks again for the answers; I'll put them to good use.

Well by firemagic on 2015-10-19 07:45:00 UTC Reply

Not really. Luccio wasn't sure that she'd ever be able to make her swords again, because she was out of the body that specialized in that power, it wasn't just a matter of being weaker.

In addition, that was ''still'' a Dresdenverse body. A Dresden wizard in, I don't know, a random cop show universe body probably wouldn't be able to do anything. As for the tech stuff - probably things should short out inconveniently/ at the funny moments, but a circle around the Console should take care of most of the issues. And just carry a bunch of backups or have some special antimagic bag prepared.

I'll keep this in mind, thanks for the answer. (nm) by Hardric on 2015-10-19 07:55:00 UTC Reply

Well... by JulyFlame on 2015-10-18 11:10:00 UTC Reply

While it is theoretically genetic in the Dresdenverse, what I understand from what I've read (I haven't read the whole series yet, but know bits and bobs- heh- from elsewhere) is that it's a bit more 'sticky' than just straight genetics, given the roles that certain characters end up landing themselves into despite the fact that at series start/their introduction it doesn't seem like they'd be able to do such at all.

The DORKS and disguise generators are just that: disguises; which, to me implies that they're more overlaps than a *complete* transformation- there's multiple bits of different PPC canon that tend to back this up, from the whole 'now I'm a Time Lord' deal a few agents have to the whole 'there is an arrow stuck in me what now' issue waaay back in TOS.

Personally, I can see it being able to work on a character who does screw up technology just by existing around it, unless it just doesn't work at all. After all, it's all tech from the Department of Sufficiently Advanced Technology. Things are... usually ensured to work, except in the case that it doesn't. You can make an argument for this proposed agent that it could or could not work, whichever direction you want to take. Or even that it works sporadically. After all, the important thing is that you get something that you think would be amusing out of it, or would result in an outcome that you would want, in this particular case.

As long as you can rationalize it to some extent, that's the important thing.

Thanks for the advice. (nm) by Hardric on 2015-10-18 19:44:00 UTC Reply

Uh... not so great. by Agent Wobbles, DF on 2015-10-18 10:41:00 UTC Reply

My AAT means I can't use a D.O.R.K.S., but my partner can use one on me. She just has to stand back a ways and be careful she doesn't catch fire. Again. =oD

"I know it's your fault that happened, human. There'll be a reckoning for it, you mark my words..."

Thank you for your anwer. (nm) by Hardric on 2015-10-18 19:44:00 UTC Reply