Hmm. - PPC Posting Board

Subject: Hmm.
Author: Huinesoron
Posted on: 2015-10-23 09:05:00 UTC

The trouble is, the Elvish population in the Third Age was almost exclusively Wood-elves. The two major realms, Lorien and Mirkwood, were made up of that people - but led by exiles of Beleriand (Galadriel the Noldo, Celeborn and Thranduil the Sindar). West of the Mountains you have Elrond running a single household (and Tolkien's drawings make it clear that he was literally thinking of a single house). The only Noldorin/Sindarin realm of any size was the Grey Havens at Mithlond, which was ruled by... Cirdan, who technically isn't even Sindarin ('Sinda', or 'Grey-elf', properly applies to those who got the Light of Aman by proxy from Thingol and Melian. Cirdan was never subject to Doriath, so he's a category all to himself.) Cirdan was also the one whose realm Gil-Galad co-opted - and was the only elf in Middle-earth in the Third Age to remember the Waters of Awakening.

Ultimately, I think the authority of the High King lay fallow for a long time, until it was taken up by the White Council itself. Which was led by Saruman... ;)

hS

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Amrod and Amras by Alleb on 2015-10-17 02:00:00 UTC Reply

Alright, here's a weird thing. I've read everywhere, from wikis to fanfiction, that Amrod dies when Fëanor burns the ships at Losgar. But I've scoured my copy of The Silmarillion cover to cover, and I haven't found any mention of it. Quite the contrary; the map (which shows all of the places where the Fëanorians settled) in my copy has an area clearly labelled "Amrod and Amras." My copy also explicitly mentions Amrod and Amras dying in the attack on Sirion. So... does anyone know what's up? Does anyone else's copy say this? I'm very confused.

-Alleb

According to Wikipedia... by Seafarer on 2015-10-17 02:37:00 UTC Reply

Amrod died, and the published Silmarillion is wrong. It was omitted because Christopher apparently couldn't see how to integrate it into the narrative.

Perhaps better to say by Elcalion on 2015-10-17 02:54:00 UTC Reply

that JRRT went through various versions of the story, which left Christopher Tolkien in the position of trying to decide which was the definitive version. Later on, when going through the late papers, CT discovered the story of Amrod dying at Losgar.

A similar thing happened with the parentage of Gil-Galad; years later (when going into more detail for the History of Middle Earth) CT concluded that JRRT's final word on the subject was Gil-Galad as the son of Orodreth.

A lot of it is due to the sheer volume of papers that JRRT left behind, and CT was under a fair bit of pressure to get the Silm published quickly (the Silm was released only 4 years after JRRT died), which meant he had to assemble a narrative (relatively) quickly without the ~20 years of textural analysis which produced Unfinished Tales and the History of Middle Earth books.

Elcalion

Except... by Seafarer on 2015-10-17 05:10:00 UTC Reply

...it says he omitted it "as he did not at the time see how it could be incorporated into the primary text of The Silmarillion." Which to me reads like he chose not to use it, not that he didn't know about it.

As I understand it... by Huinesoron on 2015-10-17 10:37:00 UTC Reply

... the difficulty is that while the Professor wrote one of the twins dying at Losgar, he never carried that change through. So the rest of the story still refers to both of them being alive. Relatedly, the narratives concerning the death - specifically two scenes with Nerdanel, one with her prophesying the death, and one with her begging Feanor to leave the twins in Valinor - were never slotted into the story; there's no hint in the Silm narrative as to where they fit. (The latter, for instance, would need to fall between the Oath and the Kinslaying - but the narrative runs at high speed in that section, and wouldn't easily take an injected Family Moment.)

So Christopher excised it, because there was no way to fit it into the story without massively rewriting sections of the Darkening of Valinor. It's a defensible decision, though I do wish he'd come out with an Extended Edition incorporating all that sort of material. (It's been noted that the women of the Noldor get massively cut down in the published Silm.)

Gil-Galad's parentage, on the other hand, has been admitted as a simple mistake: Christopher didn't realise at the time that it was only a passing notion.

hS

Interesting! by Alleb on 2015-10-20 22:03:00 UTC Reply

Thanks to all of you! This was really bothering me. I assume that, in matters of Canon, the poor guy actually dies at Losgar? (Which is a shame; I've always liked the twins for some reason.)

Oh, and that reminds me! hS: is Ambarussa plural or singular, can it be used to refer to both Amrod and Amras, and is it the super-touchy-never-use-unless-you're-family name?

*insert exasperated comment about the Noldor and complicated names*

-Alleb

Heh. by Seafarer on 2015-10-22 04:25:00 UTC Reply

Well, we have bookverse and movieverse, right? Stands to reason there's Silmverse (where he lives) and HoME-verse (where he, uh, doesn't). I guess if a fic has Amrod die, you can then charge if Gil-galad is Fingon's son, or vice versa...
(it makes so much more sense for Gil-galad to be descended from, y'know, the High Kings of the Noldor, as opposed to the junior branch...)

Well, someone has to do the job. by Huinesoron on 2015-10-22 10:09:00 UTC Reply

Male-line descendents of Finwe alive at the time of Turgon's death:

-Maedhros
-Maglor
-Amras
-Celebrimbor

All four of them are disinherited by Maedhros' actions.

-... Gil-Galad

Seriously, he's it. Apparently the Noldor don't allow descent through or to women, given that the following seem never to have been considered:

-Idril, daughter of the High King
-Earendil, her son
-Galadriel

Whatever Gil-Galad's parentage, he was apparently the only possible option.

But don't go thinking he had an easy time making the claim. He took the aftername Ereinion, 'Scion of Kings', precisely to cement his claim. He may also have been the person who prefixed a 'Finwe' to his great-grandfather's name, upgrading 'Arfin' to 'Finarfin' and making that explicit link to the original High King. He very tidily assembled all of the other candidates he could reach into his own realm - Idril fled to the Havens of Sirion, and it's entirely probable Celebrimbor was there, too. Galadriel was out of reach in the east, and the remaining sons of Feanor were distinctly unwanted. He also snagged Elwing, Thingol's most recent heir, and had the approval of Cirdan Lord of the Havens (can we say 'power behind the throne'?). Except for Maedhros and - oh yeah - Morgoth, there was no-one around to challenge Gil-Galad's proclamation of himself as King of Beleriand.

(The above passage is entirely speculative, of course.)

hS

Did you think about Elrond? by Hardric on 2015-10-22 11:54:00 UTC Reply

I mean, I'm thinking along the lines of the High King of the Noldor title, and if I remember it right, Elrond could have claimed the title after Gil-Galad's death, and his claim on the title would be based upon the fact that he is Earendil's son. It means logically then that descent through the women is acknowledged, isn't it?

Hardric.

Thing is... by Huinesoron on 2015-10-22 19:52:00 UTC Reply

... the only person I've seen claiming that is me. :D

I'm going to be honest: if the High Kingship excludes the female line(s), that is ridiculously stupid, sexist, and offensive. I would vastly prefer it not to be the case, and view it as authorial bias rather than proper worldbuilding.

You could argue that female-line is allowed, just not actual females. That would allow Earendil, Elrond, Elros, Elladan, Elrohir, and potentially Eldarion, to make a claim, and given that only one of them (Earendil) was born at the time Turgon died - and was, like, five - it wouldn't be too hard to make the case stick. Not that it's a whole lot less stupid.

Anyway, long story short: Galadriel for High Queen of the Noldor. You know it makes sense.

hS

ALL SHALL LOVE HER AND DESPAIR!!!! (nm) by Elcalion on 2015-10-24 04:13:00 UTC Reply

If Galadriel had been offered the Ring... by Huinesoron on 2015-10-24 10:42:00 UTC Reply

... at any time up to...

... oh...

... probably about the time the White Council was formed, she would totally have taken it.

Seriously. Read the passage again. She has fantasised about getting her hands on it:

"I do not deny that my heart has greatly desired to ask what you offer. For many long years I had pondered what I might do, should the Great Ring come into my hands..."

I think she genuinely surprised herself when she turned it down. Galadriel had been in rebellion against the Powers, and in pursuit of more power for herself, for over ten thousand years at this point. She turned it down at the last - but she was still in every way a child of the House of Finwe.

hS

You're not alone, Tolkien Gateway claims it too. by Hardric on 2015-10-22 21:40:00 UTC Reply

Besides, I seen something that would be in favor of succession through females lines, altough this is indirect.
You see, before the throne was yoinked away from him, prince Soronto of Numenor was Tar-Meneldur's heir through his mother Ailinel. If Numenor acknowledged the female lines, I cannot see why the Noldor wouldn't.

Ehm. by Huinesoron on 2015-10-23 08:58:00 UTC Reply

It does, but it doesn't provide any references. They claim that 'Elrond was a direct descendant of Turgon; he never made claim to the Kingship but ruled with all its authority', which is... frankly dubious, given that we never saw Elrond exert any authority over the Grey Havens, the last Noldorin realm in existence. They also say that 'It has been argued that following Gil-galad’s death, Elrond had the right to become High King of the Noldor, but he never claimed the title', which makes the lack of references explicit.

They do cite the claim that 'Galadriel of the House of Finarfin perhaps could have some rights', but it's cited to Foster's Complete Guide to Middle-earth, ie, not the canon. I may have a copy of that, so I'll look it up if I think of it.

As for the Numenoreans... actually, that's a point against female-line succession! Per Tolkien Gateway again:

Before Tar-Aldarion changed the Law of Succession in Númenor only the son of the King could be the King's heir or, if he had no son, then the nearest male kinsman of male descent from Elros Tar-Minyatur would be King. This meant that Malantur (grandson of Tar-Elendil's younger brother Eärendur) was in line for the Sceptre. After Tar-Aldarion changed the law, his daughter Ancalimë could become the ruler of Númenor. But because of a clause in the changed law that said that the Queen had to marry in order to keep her position and could not die childless, Soronto apparently remained hopeful of receiving the Sceptre.

The entire female line was excluded from the Numenorean kingship until Tar-Ancalime. The question is, whose inheritence rules were they following? Elros was descended from the royal houses of Beor, Hador, Doriath, and Gondolin; his people were mostly Hadorian. We know the Doriathrin line passed through women (to Dior 'Thingol's Heir', by Luthien); we don't really know about the others, but the only Noldorian one is Gondolin (and they were weird anyway). So, circumstantially, women may have been excluded from Noldorin royalty - but as you say, it's pretty indirect.

hS

My bad. I'll check canon better next time. (nm) by Hardric on 2015-10-23 19:02:00 UTC Reply

She pretty much was. by Seafarer on 2015-10-22 20:51:00 UTC Reply

Who summoned the White Council? Galadriel. Who was the only remaining heir of Finwë to remember the Trees? Galadriel. Who kept an eye on Dol Guldur for half the Third Age? Yeah, Galadriel. Oh, and she was Elrond's mother-in-law, so she'd come before him in inheritance. Maybe. Or maybe I'm just making things up.
In any case, she was certainly the leader of the Exiles for the Third Age. After that, well, there weren't any Exiles left, with the possible exception of Maglor... and the Noldor in Valinor were still ruled by Finarfin.

Hmm. by Huinesoron on 2015-10-23 09:05:00 UTC Reply

The trouble is, the Elvish population in the Third Age was almost exclusively Wood-elves. The two major realms, Lorien and Mirkwood, were made up of that people - but led by exiles of Beleriand (Galadriel the Noldo, Celeborn and Thranduil the Sindar). West of the Mountains you have Elrond running a single household (and Tolkien's drawings make it clear that he was literally thinking of a single house). The only Noldorin/Sindarin realm of any size was the Grey Havens at Mithlond, which was ruled by... Cirdan, who technically isn't even Sindarin ('Sinda', or 'Grey-elf', properly applies to those who got the Light of Aman by proxy from Thingol and Melian. Cirdan was never subject to Doriath, so he's a category all to himself.) Cirdan was also the one whose realm Gil-Galad co-opted - and was the only elf in Middle-earth in the Third Age to remember the Waters of Awakening.

Ultimately, I think the authority of the High King lay fallow for a long time, until it was taken up by the White Council itself. Which was led by Saruman... ;)

hS

Good question(s). by Huinesoron on 2015-10-21 15:38:00 UTC Reply

I assume that, in matters of Canon, the poor guy actually dies at Losgar?

Elvish answer. :D Since the published Silmarillion says Amrod lived through the Wars of the Jewels, it would be kind of dodgy to tell people off for writing exactly that. But, yes, to go by Tolkien's ultimate plans, he should be dead. One assumes he's Not Talking to Feanor down in Mandos.

I checked the source text (it's in The Peoples of Middle-earth) this morning, and nobody uses Ambarussa as a plural. It sounds like one, because it sounds like a Latin plural - quanta, millennia - but Quenya nouns form plurals in -r or -i. No Noldo would look at 'Ambarussa' and think it was plural. Which is a shame, because I really like thinking of them as it collectively. You could probably use it if you're writing them very similar to each other, as a 'it doesn't matter which one you mean'. (You could also definitely say 'Ambarussar' or 'Ambarussat', the plural and dual forms respectively.)

It is definitely a valid name for both twins. It's an interesting fact that only one of Feanor's children uses the name his father gave him; all the others use their mother-names (except Maedhros, who combined it with an aftername). So Ambarussa (hah) would have used that name. They definitely used it of each other. Amrod may have gone by Ambarto in Quenya (the name Feanor changed Nerdanel's suggestion to); he would probably not have used Umbarto, 'the Doomed One'.

Per Tolkien Gateway, quoting from one of the Tolkien journals (which I don't have access to): Others most often called [Amrod] Atyarussa, which means "Second-russa"

All of this of course applies in Beleriand as well as Aman - the Sons of Feanor spoke Quenya in their own realms, ignoring Thingol's edict. Which invites the intriguing question of whether 'Maedhros' went by Matimo, Russandol, or a compound such as Maitrus...

hS

*scoops up Matimo the mini-Balrog* by DawnFire on 2015-10-22 04:00:00 UTC Reply

Well, this is unusual. Hello, little fella! Don't suppose you'll stick around?

(Of course his flames are redder than average. Why *wouldn't* they be? Though if you try to tell me that Matimo is a well-formed mini-Balrog or missing a hand, I may have to either snicker or sigh.)

Speaking of snickering, that's exactly what I'm doing at the thought of Maedhros going by 'Maitrus'. It sounds like something an immature family member would make up.

...remind me to use it if I ever write some sort of Feanorian parody. Actually, come to think of it, there's something I could use it in, but it's starring Finrod--no, wait, Maedhros is in it! It could work.

Snickering at 'Second-russa' as well. And the Not Talking, which makes perfect sense to me. Also, something-something-Curufin-was-his-father's-favorite-no-wonder-he-used-his-father-name.

~DF

PS: "Maitrus! Maitrus, have you been outside today?"
"...what did you call me?"
"Maitrus. You see, your names combine quite well when you think about it--"
"My names *what*--"
"--and Maitrus even sounds quite similar to 'Maedhros', which will certainly help with remembering both names--"
"--have you lost your mind?"
"--and, all told, I believe it will soon catch on!"
"..."
"..." (grinning)
"...you have clearly gone insane."
"..."
"..." (glaring)
"I am so glad you've noticed, Maitrus."
*thud* (headdesking)

Oh bother. by Huinesoron on 2015-10-22 09:43:00 UTC Reply

Curse you, sons of Feanor! Curse you and your little-used names!

The naming conventions in the house of Finwe are hilarious, actually. Finwe named all three of his sons after himself - literally, he called them all 'Finwe' - and only later added modifiers ('crafty', 'wise', and 'noble'). (Curu)Finwe Feanaro named all his sons [modifier]Finwe, and gave one of them - Curufinwe - his own name in full. Nolofinwe slapped his fathers name onto the front of his own to look more kingly; Finrod's branch responded by sticking a 'Finwe' onto the beginning of their father's Sindarin name too... throw in the fact that all three of Finwe's sons had way more children than usual, and the fact that some of their kids ended up with names like 'Noble lady' (uh, no duh), and you get a real picture for just how messed up House Finwe is.

(And the first daughter of Finwe and Indis was... Findis. Seriously! Guys! Noldor are supposed to be good with language!)

hS

Stars, it gets worse. by Huinesoron on 2015-10-22 09:50:00 UTC Reply

Finarfin's mother-name was Ingoldo - which he somehow persuaded his wife to give to Finrod as his mother-name. And Fingolfin's was Aracano... which he gave to his youngest (not-in-the-Silm) son, Argon. I think we just have to consider it a blessing that Curufin didn't name his son Curufin as well...

hS

Jawdroppingly worse. by Huinesoron on 2015-10-22 09:58:00 UTC Reply

Aegnor-son-of-Finarfin's mother-name was 'Ambarato'. You may notice that this is virtually identical to the name Feanor 'misheard' Nerdanel giving to one of Ambarussat - 'Ambarto'.

Did Feanor plagiarise his son's name from his half-nephew? Seriously? That's not cool, Spirit of Fire, not cool at all.

The alternative, if the ages are reversed, is possibly even worse: that Earwen decided to snub Feanor thoroughly by giving her son a name that sounds like his child's, references the name Feanor wants to ignore - Ambarato is 'Champion of Doom' - and is more impressive-sounding than either.

Seriously. Messed-up. Family. It's no wonder the sanest members - Felagund, Galadriel, Gil-Galad, Maedhros, (Idril) Celebrindal - ended up using afternames instead of the ones their parents gave them. Their parents were nutters.

(Was Maedhros one of the sane princes of the Noldor? Well, he got both himself and his lunatic brothers firmly out of the kingship race; I'd say he's far better than his father, at any rate.)

hS

Out and out snickering at all of the above. by DawnFire on 2015-10-22 15:12:00 UTC Reply

The abundance of Finwes and Feanor's plagiarism ~~and everything else, including the combined names~~ comes out to the funniest thing I've read yet today. Thank you :D

Mind you, now I'm wondering if it was just the royal family who were such butters, or if Naergondir and Gurnirel also have something like that going on in their families.

...actually, unless I changed it, Gurnirel was initially named after her father. The name got changed as she grew up, but I'm pretty sure she's still named for him. This probably doesn't count unless all her siblings were named for him, and her children as well, and maybe a bunch of cousins got in on it as well...

Yeah, I'm guessing the royal family's the nuttiest, if nothing else. Also, now I want to see Naergondir somehow get a huge family and name everyone after him and cackle about it to himself when no one's around.

Anyway. Thanks for this morning's dose of hilarity!

~DF

PS: Matimo does seem to be sticking around. I'm not sure yet exactly what he's making of hobbition, but they aren't fighting yet or stealing each others' food. I did suggest that Matimo might have more fun at OFUM; he ignored me. I think he might be waiting to see how much excitement or lack thereof goes on around here...