Subject: Re: Objection!
Author:
Posted on: 2015-08-23 00:44:00 UTC
Well, mostly the issue is less that he's omniscient, and more that someone jumping around through portals would catch his attention quicklike. And in any case, he did do that Reddit AMA so it wouldn't be a stretch for him to even know about the Board's existence.
Quick question: Does Discord know of the PPC's existence? Seeing as his powers over reality basically make him a Lovecraftian god, I highly doubt he could be neuralized.
And speaking of which, do the various Great Old Ones know about the PPC as well? I think that we really need to give this some thought.
King Eliam, of the Door Within. He is God, pure and simple. He's slightly different from the God of the Bible in that he exists in only one person, rather than three.
In fact, as a bit of backstory, He sent Agent Alleb to HQ, so He definitely knows about it. I doubt anyone will need to know about Him, though; there were fewer than fifty DW Trilogy badfics the last I checked.
1/ We don't really need to think about things we're not actually writing missions into. ^_^
2/ Canon-cloaking. The canon itself stops canon characters noticing us; there's no reason it shouldn't apply to omniscients.
3/ SEP fields. Unless your omniscient explicitly pays attention to everything (rather than just having the ability to know about it), an SEP field should render agents unnoticed.
4/ Canon self-repairs after a badfic is dealt with. Lots of characters don't need neuralysing at all; they just have the events wiped from their personal history. Dying characters will get back up and move on; uncanonically-alive characters will spontaneously die. You should really need knowledge of alternate timelines to get around this.
5/ Practical omniscience =/= true omniscience. Any method of omniscience that isn't simply They Just Know By Magic is spoofable by the PPC.
6/ 'And then dark gods tore a dimensional rift into HQ and slaughtered everyone inside' isn't funny. The PPC is a humour series. Rule of Funny should be consulted over and above precedent and logic.
hS
Before you read this, this is more of a rant then a call for change. I have been of this opinion for a while, and I really wanted to let it out. You may see it as unreasonable. It probably is unreasonable, but it is just one of those things that bugs me about how the PPC works. Don't read too much into it. Just, take it is me letting off some steam on this issue.
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Look at all the ways Agents should never ever be seen, except by Sues. That's just dull, to me. Why bother hiding? Sues? They are so self-absorbed, they probably will ignore you until it's time to do the Duty anyway. You, and many others have stated that the PPC is not supposed to be about super OP gods stepping in to take out uber baddies and be super badass, but a bunch of barely trained agents faced against near impossible odds with barely-working tech. And yet, all agents get to be completely invisible, with no need to be careful or cautious. After all, it's just not anybody's problem, right? Waltz right into Elrond's home: nobody will mind! Which is funnier to you: agents having to hold in their extreme will to scream out, carefully slinking through the shadows, and trying to avoid explaining why, exactly, they are in the Princess' private quarters without permission; or just popping a portal right in with no whims in the world.
There is no tension with this stuff, and comedy needs tension as much as drama. Moreso, at times. Especially when the sneaking fails, and the agents have to try to cover their tails.
And I get it, kill the bafic, canon is back. Yay. But that just makes the job easy too. Now they don't have to clean up any mess left behind: just let the kill happen and the job is done. Never mind the potential lingering impact of such a being, never mind what little artifacts the Sue or the agents left behind. It all just washes away immediately so we can all ship off and go home. That aspect seems to have been fading from more modern missions, and I for one welcome this change. It may only be a couple paragraphs more, but it does help show how overworked these people are. They just got done killing this Ultra Sue. Yay! Now they have to go through and pick up every last hair she may have dropped, so she may never grow back like so much sparkly fungus. For the good of the canon.
That all said, I do understand why we have the thing of the canon cloaking you. But even then, it can only go so far, Jay and Acacia even mention how they have to disguise themselves as creatures that would reasonably kill Sues, so that the canon cloak won't fall apart. It helps, but it only helps them blend in as characters. The SEP fields make it way too easy. Way too simple. Great comedy can come from great danger answered with great silliness. This removes all of the danger, leaving only silliness.
Bah, but who am I? Some guy who came in late who has only released two missions. I can't tell people to ignore an aspect of the PPC that has been used for years, especially such a staple as this. All I can do is avoid use in my own work where I can, and still have it be recognizably PPC.
And the Outer Gods, since they're actually different things. The vast majority of Lovecraftian horrors are not omniscient; they are more like unstoppable forces than sentient beings. They don't really get involved with humanity except to destroy them. The two major exceptions that I can think of would be Yog-Sothoth and Nyarlathotep.
Yog-Sothoth very explicitly knows and sees everything. He would definitely know about the PPC. That being said, he's not in a position to do anything about it due to being sealed outside of reality (although that didn't seem to stop him in "The Dunwich Horror.")
Nyarlathotep, on the other hand, is not omniscient. He is, however, much more involved with humans. More specifically, he likes to drive them insane. He is treacherous, cruel, and yet profoundly charismatic. Nyarlathotep acts as the emissary of the Outer Gods, of which I believe Yog-Sothoth is part of. So… he could possibly know of the PPC. That could be a very bad thing.
PC, amateur Lovecraft scholar
What about Nyarlathotep from the Persona universe (which granted, is based on the one aforementioned)? We are talking about the Glaurunging embodiment of collective evil of humanity here. That means it is omnipresent and as result of that and also being the manifestation of something related to the human mind, it is also omniscient. And it is also Glaurunging bent on screwing over and destroying humanity, only keeping enough around to perpetuate it is existence, for as long humanity and thus evil exists, it can never be destroyed.
For that matter, what about YHWH (which is SEVERELY different God from the one from Judeo-Christian tradition) and Lucifer from Shin Megami Tensei? Again, we are talking embodiments of eternal concepts here, in this case Order and Chaos.
YHWH wants to bring everything in existence under his lawful rule, so I can't imagine he would be pleased about the PPC.
Lucifer by the very definition of his job is a wild card, and may either not really care or be opposed due to seeing the PPC as being representive of Order and imposing on the freedom he embodies.
And, indeed, could be shorter. (Jack Harkness? Why?) Usually, these are reserved to those who are truly Omnipotent. YAHWEH, Aslan, Death, and so on. Due to having complete omnipotence in their job description, it is a little difficult to make them say, "except this." So, instead, we make a plea to their better nature and hope they wont go blabbing about us. They seem to have kept their word thus far.
However, I would make an argument about certain other canon characters who are not on the list. Relax, they are not fourth wall breakers. You can see how I think they go below. Indeed, I don't even go with the argument of, "But they are gods, so they must know, because they are deities!" Unless total and complete omnipotence is in their list of powers, they can be neuralized. Is it harder? Possibly. But it can, and will, be done.
In my view, the "Recorders of Fate" or "Keepers of Forbidden Knowledge," may very well have some old tomes relating to the Protectors of the Plot Continuum. The biggest one is, for me, Hermaeus Mora: Daedric Prince of Forbidden Knowledge. He resides in the plane of Oblivion known as Apocrypha. Here, in the vast, unending library, resides all knowledge of all reality. whether mortal man or immortal god was meant to know any of it, it matters not, only that it be recorded within this maddening realm. To those who wish to seek it, grand power and inspiration lies within. But, be weary traveler, for within resides monstrous beasts and tormented souls who have lost their sanity and selves in the ever eternal quest for knowledge. But, beyond the physical dangers within the Eternal Library, be most afraid of that which you seek. For glancing within the wrong book without the proper mental wards can shatter even the strongest willed of minds.
In my view, Herma Mora is effectively Omnipotent. It is his job to know all things. Even better, with C0DA*, my view is true! In my C0DA, Hormaius Mora knows every dirty secret of the PPC, and how it all works. He knows how to find the Pool. He knows the exact layout of HQ. He even knows how Legal works. He will simply never tell anyone. He is far too interested in seeking new knowledge (of which, there is never ending, yet, non-existent) and impressionable, desperate minds to break and bend under his control. So, if ever an agent should see a pitch black book in HQ, it is best to send it directly to the Library, without ever glancing within. For your safety, and every one else's.
As for any other recorders of forbidden knowledge, you can make the argument that they have it within their library, somewhere. But what librarian is expected to have their entire stock memorized? Again, anyone other then Herma Mora.
(No, I have not misspelled Hermaeus Mora once in this post. He has a number of spellings. The proper one? Such knowledge mortal man is not meant to know.)
(*C0DA is something... special for the Elder Scrolls canon. While it does not stand for anything, I like to say it unofficially stands for: Canon Open; Do Anything! It is complicated, but I will gladly go into it if anyone is interested. However, yes, it also stands to reason that in your C0DA, Herma Mora knows nothing of the PPC, and have it be just as valid as my insistence that he knows everything. All I can do is try to convince you to adapt my C0DA as your own.)
...not only knows about the PPC, she has even visited it to demand a mission to a specific badfic.
No, it doesn't make sense to me, either.
It's the OFU version. ^_^ HonorH wrote the Buffy OFU, so it makes sense that OFU!Xena would seek her out.
The more interesting question is, how did OFU!Gabrielle end up trapped in a fic? Mary Sue Factory abduction?
(Sometimes I think it would have been much more interesting if we'd swung towards 'it all happens in the real canon' model, rather than the parasite-universes setup. Oh, well...)
hS
Because Mora is not all-powerful.
I think that, to know about the PPC, a canon needs to be either omniscient (so neuralysing can't undo their knowledge) or omnipotent (so they can stop themselves from being neuralysed; this requires said canon to encounter the PPC at least once).
Anyone else... well, if neuralysing doesn't work, FicPsych should be able to figure something out.
My mistake.
The thingis, he's actually kind of improperly labeled as a canon who knows of the PPC. He can see through Perception Filters and SEP Fields, so while it might make missions involving him a bit more difficult, he certainly doesn't know about us.
...someone should prolly remove that category from his Wiki page.
That shows up in Lily's Blackout interlude and I think in some other places, such as Tasmin and Emma's missions--think about it. He sees through perception filters, yet never really asks who the agents are? He knows. I don't think he does much of anything with the information, but he's OOC resistant into the bargain (only to a certain point, mind you. And he can definitely be replaced). He seems to have at least a very basic knowledge of what agents do--he certainly knows they're there to help, and I think he might have been recognizing Tasmin and Emma eventually?--and, well, yeah. He knows at least a bit.
~DF, who can track down some links later if necessary. Assuming the working ones are still good; it can be hard to find working links to some of IndeMaat's missions.
As in, most likely do not know of the PPC simply because they haven't heard of them. However, most are also so reality breaking, I would assume a memory-erasure or something would have, to quote Worf, "No Effect". brain chemistry or eyballs mean very little when you can tell the laws of physics to shut up and go sit in the corner.
Thus, I would assume agents would try to avoid interacting with them. I know I would! Although, if I were some unpronounceable otherworldly entity of evil, I really wouldn't care about the strange, insane kids who run around killing the sparkly people either, so maybe the Great Old Ones do indeed know of the PPC, they just don't care. Or have some feeling resembling apathy. Actually, it's probably best not to think too hard about this one.
I had Coyote from Gunnerkrigg Court know about the PPC because, well, because he's Coyote. He's capricious as a fairy from an old, old story and as powerful as a god can be. He knows how to mess about with memories to a far more detailed degree than a neuralyser can manage. And lastly? If someone tried to mess about with him? He'd put up a fight.
That's not a fight an experienced agent team would have a snowball's chance in a blast furnace of winning, and it was Wobbles and the Notary's first (and to date only) mission. =]
Waaaay back in Ye Olden Times, Cthulhu was used as a popular method of Sue murder. He was phased out because... well, the REAL OOC reason was because it was an over-used death, but the In-Universe reason was because he was getting fat - so I assume that Cthulhu, at least, knows about us.
Cthulhu wasn't left the presents anonymously, or was neuralyzed after the fact.
I mean, in modern times, people don't leave Sues for canon monsters with a "Hey, this is a Mary Sue, we're agents, do you mind doing us a favor and eating her?" It's more along the lines of "Here, let me open a portal to a convenient location where some monster will stumble upon the body and turn it into a snack."
And I'm pretty sure if Cthulhu knew about the PPC, that would be fixed immediately. Do you really think the Flowers (or any agents) would like the idea of an Eldritch Abomination knowing about them?
I'm fairly sure that Bill Cipher from Gravity Falls knows about the PPC. Unfortunately he's probably the reason that I am leery of writing a mission in that universe - it seems like Agents would be too good a target to pass up, but I have no idea how that would play out other than 'badly.'
Although Bill knows a lot of things - I doubt he is omniscient.
There's even a theory video on that.
Well, mostly the issue is less that he's omniscient, and more that someone jumping around through portals would catch his attention quicklike. And in any case, he did do that Reddit AMA so it wouldn't be a stretch for him to even know about the Board's existence.
"...there are a few canon characters who know of the PPC. These characters may be omniscient, like Aslan or Eru, or otherwise impossible to neuralyze, like Death or the Bronze Dragonflight; or they might simply have a talent for knowing things they shouldn't, like Gaspode."
Neither Discord, nor The Great Old Ones, enter on any category. They aren't omniscient, nor are embodiments of Time, Death or Memory. They aren't known for knowing things they shouldn't know either. Pinkie Pie on the other hand...
Let's use Captain Janeway as our example. She does not know of the actual PPC, and she can be neuralyzed. Howver, she has had enough contact with time travel, and other weird things that she may assume that a multiversal, order-keeping, paramilitary organization exists. Guess what the PPC is? So, she may assume that something like the PPC exists, without actually knowing about it. Contact with someone like this could go as follows:
(Secret) agent man: "Hey, did you know we're in the PPC?"
Random Redshirt: "No, what's that?"
Agent man: "We go around the multiverse protecting canons and killing sues!"
Random Redshirt: "Oh yeah, professor Cromwell said something like that might exist, here are our first contact protocols for this situation."
This logic is really prevalent in the study of physics. They don't know what this thing is, but they can safely assume it at least exists. And, more often than not, they know a little about its properties.
When it comes to fourth-wall breakers like Pinkie Pie (or the Looney Tunes, Deadpool, etc.), I tend to hold to an interpretation paraphrased from "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?"
"No, I couldn't have realized what you were at any time. Only when it was funny!"
Or dramatic, I suppose. Otherwise, I feel like it's giving them way too much power (although Iximaz is right when she says that Pinkie could be neuralized just like any other canon). But that's just my view on the matter.
Usually, the canon cloaks agents from canon characters, but not Mary Sues or other OCs. Or, in my interpretation, fourth wall breakers. Pinkie and the rest can see agents at any time: they just have no context for why they are there. Why do you think agents go in disguise? For the Sues and these people.
The exception to this rule is as you said: only when it is funny. If Pinkie has a good joke she can make about the PPC to agents, she will make it, but only have the vaguest idea about what she is actually talking about, quickly dismissed. Call it a 'hunch,' if you will. Just one of a million million possibilities she just plucked out of the air on a whim, that just turned out to be correct.
Discord on the other hand is... Complicated. To be safe, we will just say, no. He has no idea. And yet, he knows everything. It just matters so little to him, he never recalls it, even under direct questioning. But, ask enough, and he could diverge PPC secrets if he wanted to. Or not. Whatever particular mood he is in at the time. Lovely thing about chaos. You can never predict it.
... and alternatively, the Squirrel Girl route can also be taken: They know you're there, but their "contract" prohibits them to take notice of you or the Fourth Wall (And yes, this is canon for Squirrel Girl).
Because keep in mind, she's literally a goddess, and her knowledge is therefore infinite in the same way as Aslan's is. She'd probably not go tattle-taling to anyone else, though, for their own safety, and her interactions with the agents would be minimal.
Pit's case is even more interesting because, well, he's the main protagonist, but he breaks 5he Fourth Wall as much as Palutena does. On the other hand, I suppose he can be neuralyzed in the same way as Pinkie Pie, and probably just as well, because in hindsight, I don’t think his having full knowledge of the PPC would be a good idea.
Aslan is on a different tier from, say, the Norse or Greek gods, who are more fallible. Similarly, I doubt any of the Pathfinder deities would be aware of what goes on in the PPC, at least in part because we don't really fall under any of their domains, and they have bigger issues to deal with. They wouldn't show up for the same reason they don't show up when you're fighting a dragon or demon in the game.
And honestly, I think it's real-world implications that are what gives Aslan his edge over other deities. I've seen Death and Madoka be given a lot of respect in this reality as well. Without getting into a debate about religion, I think real-world influence plays a part in whether or not they're aware of what we do, and I don't think it's entirely unfair.
...after agents clean up and go to neuralyze, she suddenly guesses they're from a multidimentional secret organization dedicated to protecting all of existence. I mean, her human counterpart did guess pony-turned human Twilight came from another universe, and then the pony Pinkie guessed the exact events of the movie.
Pinkie Pie OP, man.
But I don't think she'd know immediately. She'd have to interact with the agents a bit before figuring it out, and she'd be just as easily neuralyzed as the next canon.
I mean, one of Pinkie's most defining traits (or at least fanon traits) is her Medium Awareness, so yeah, wouldn't surprise me if she realized that 1) She is not in a TV show anymore but in a fanfic and 2) that fanfic is currently being "invaded" by beings from other fictional universes. But then again, that is mostly fanon related interpretetions, so maybe not.
But I do agree that she probably wouldn't much immune to neuralization than most MLP:FIM canons.
But on that note, what about Celestia and Luna? Canon mostly says that they really powerful ponies, but most fanon has it that alicorns are basically pony goddesses, so would they be aware or not?
Long answer: Celestia and Luna don't have the level of cosmic awarenes required to know if something is wrong with their universe, much like Zeus in almost every franchise where he's depicted.
To at least be aware of the existance of the kind of organization like the PPC, you should be keeping tabs on who's alive and dead(like any embodiment of Death), be able to see everywhere (like Apollo), be able to feel disturbances in space, time or both (too many cosmic entities to list), or be downright omniscient.
Being able to see or break the Fourth Wall certainly helps too, but that doesn't mean they can't be neuralyzed, is just that there's no point in doing it, they'll simply gain that information again, one way or another.
And there's also the danger that pose telepaths...
Guess that is what you get when the only time you had left in the day to post was too damn late in your own timezone * sighs *
But in anycase, I would rather ask a stupid question and get it wrong than be too afraid to ask anything at all and leave myself out of the discussion.
So, what about The Lord of Darkness? She (yes, you read that right) is the creator of all four worlds of the Slayers universe and everything there was (accidently) created by her and it said that she is therefore omniscient. So she would have to know right?
... the character's stated to be omniscient, and to top it off, apparently she breaks the Fourth Wall too, in the after words for the novels, so, the question isn't about if she knows about it, is: Does she give a crap about the PPC? I willing to bet, that she probably doesn't.
Given that it also has been stated that The Lord of Nightmares (yeah, I screwed it up in the last post. Is there a mini for Slayers already?) wanted the universe she herself created (again, without her consent) to be destroyed and returned to the Sea of Chaos... *shudders * Yeah, I guess she wouldn't really care, would she?
Loath as may I to mention the Star-Child, for the sake of the argument, what about The Catalyst? I mean, if you represent the collective conscience of a race of Eldricht Abominations, which themselves individually contain the essence of countless ancient civilazations, don't you pretty much, in adittion to being the definition of a Tyme Abiss, attain something akin to omniscience? Which probably would count both for the Reapers individually and The Leviathans as well. But again, none of them would really care.
As far as I know, the only beings that know of the PPC are either God or His analogue (i.e. Aslan from Narnia, Eru from Middle-earth), or are everywhere in the universe at once (Madoka). As powerful as Discord and the Lovecraftian critters are, they aren't omnipotent and certainly not omniscient.
The Puppet and Big Brother? They do know of the PPC: I've read the FNAF missions and I saw the info about Big Brother on the wiki. If they know what we are, surely a collection of incredibly powerful pseudo-gods would too.
According to the Spirit of Imagination, that wasn't actually Big Brother. It was a 'bad thing' with as many names as the thing it was trying to steal, masquerading as... well, as whatever the person it was dealing with seemed most likely to respond to.
Though she may be lying. ^_^
hS
But the way I get this, the Puppet can't be neauralysed or something similar.
Generally speaking, "Knows About the PPC" is an incredibly special trait and you should not introduce new characters that have it.
It's an INCREDIBLY powerful ghost tied to Freddy Fazbear's Pizza. It can't be neuralyzed within the canon, and once out of it the soul inside is inactive, and thus can't be psychically probed.
As in, does it know literally everything that has ever, or will ever exist? No? Does it have means of learning it? No? Does it have access to vast storerooms of knowledge, where within could be held but the tracest information of an outside organization shaping known reality?
No?
It's just a ghost stuck in a Chuck E Cheese ripoff?
Then the thing does not know about the PPC. This is not Dragon Ball. Power levels are not everything. There are gods who could eradicate all of known reality on a whim who have not the slightest inkling that the PPC exists. A 'powerful' ghost who cannot even find its way outside a pizza parlor, or even the identity of the freaking killer it has been hunting for years, then there is no possible way in any reality what-so-ever it could not have its mind, such as it is, wiped.
And before you say it, no. Nobody from Dragon Ball knows aout the PPC. No, not even the Eternal Dragon.
The Puppet knows and doesn't give two poops. The FNAF characters moralities are...sketchy...at best, IMHO.
As for why it can't be neuralyzed within the canon... why? Why can't it be neuralyzed?
And again, if a character can't see and therefore can't be neuralyzed, they're supposed to be taken to FicPsych for an alternate means of memory-wiping.
They should be brought to FicPsych so they can do their thing. I dunno why the Puppet knows about the PPC, but then again, what I know about FNaF could fit in a teaspoon.
...Often seems to be the new way to go "let's make my random favourite canon thing so much more special than all the others!" Regardless of how much sense it might or might not make. For FNAF specifically, very little is concrete so stuff like this feels like fan theories/baseless conjecture gone wild.
(Plus, the whole "oh the Puppet totally knows about the PPC and is cool with it and doesn't let the animatronics mess with the agents" angle kind of nullifies a lot of conflict that could be interesting to play with. It's easy mode.)