Subject: Yeah, but still, it doesn't come with instructions.
Author:
Posted on: 2017-07-17 23:59:00 UTC
(You're referring to Ladybug, right?) She has to figure out how this item is going to fix the situation, which means she has to use her head a bit, which means brownie points in my book.
-Twistey
I find that a lot of OCs in action fanfics are subject to this; does having a large number of techniques and/or use a couple of canon loopholes to have a plethora of abilities really indicate a Mary Sue? I personally think that this is only the case in certain genres of action because the concept of power works differently. However, I see a lot of people hating on characters because said character has a large arsenal of techniques. I feel that this is unfair to a lot of fanfic authors who have characters with a lot of skills without warping or breaking canon, stretching canon perhaps, but definitely not breaking canon. So, I wanted to ask the PPC community for your opinions on the matter.
I have been reading the original series as well as a couple of other missions. Has there ever been an incident where an agent has been forced to use some non-canonical method of dealing with a sue? I only ask because some of the methods used to subdue a Sue before listing charges seems a bit forced. I don’t know, it just seems a bit un-canonical to be able to subdue Sues from certain continua using canon stuff. I’m not criticizing, it’s all very well written. This is just my personal opinion which is why I am asking.
The sign of an actual Mary Sue is that they face no real challenge. The plot, the characters, and reality itself is structured to benefit and glorify them, and even if they face an insurmountable enemy, said enemy only exists to make them look good. Basically, what matters is the execution.
The fact that there's a crossover may change some people's opinions.
-Twistey
One reason to call "Mary Sue" may be that the OC is assumed to be quite young (teenage self-insert) and cannot plausibly have the twenty years of training canon characters needed to master a similar large arsenal of techniques.
HG
Having characters master too many abilities is a bad thing for sure. However, "know" and "can use" is not the same as mastered; assuming the author meant mastered a technique when he says that a character simply knows said technique is fallacious, unless shown in the fanfic that the OC has indeed mastered it, though this is up for interpretation. Also, many people seem to equate number of techniques with power. Although this is usually true in a Magical Girl environment, it isn't the case in many other settings.
What a character is supposed to be is an entirely different thing from what a character actually is in a story. Which is an important distinction to make, because delivery of a character is everything. Technicalities about what powers a character has and how they can use them and how skilled they are with them and how many flashing lights those powers can create don't mean anything when they're separated from a character, in action, in their story. You can (I mean, within reason, I suppose. There're some things that just... can't be done well,) use the bio of a Mary Sue to deliver a good character in a story, and you can use the bio of a well-written character to deliver a Mary Sue. You got to look at things like how the techniques affect or reflect their character, or things about the reason for the character having said technique in the first place.
A Mary Sue has lots of techniques and powers essentially for bragging rights - you'll see a million Sues get bestowed heaps of abilities and powers which will get used once to show off and be forgotten, which aren't shown at all, or which are used but don't even affect the plot or anything. They're supposed to be all skilled and have all these techniques and all, and in practice they just look like a sockpuppet being held up by a badficcer who's surreptitiously saying 'Lookit me, I'm real cool!'
A well-written character who has lots of techniques and powers will actually have those techniques and powers relevant to them, whether it's as extensions of their character and backstory and all (be a bit weird if a ninja character couldn't be sneaky or any such,) or whether those techniques and powers will actually contribute to the story at hand. It can go a lot of ways, from the ninjafellow using his sneaking to bypass some obstacle, or maybe he gets all angsty about his sneaking because his love interest has an unnecessary hatred towards sneaky things. However it's done, a well-written character's skills are directly relevant to them and their plot, and if you took away said well-written character's skills, they would be losing important aspects of their character. If you took away a Mary Sue's skills, they would be losing annoying bragging rights. And of course, the Mary Sue and the ninjafellow could very easily have the exact same skills and techniques and bio - it all comes down to how it's delivered in the story.
There is a bit of a problem with large numbers of techniques generally being associated with Mary Sue types. It, once more, goes down to the issue of how the techniques relate to the character and why they're there. An interesting character generally doesn't need that many skills or techniques to be interesting. Sometimes it's even better to have less, to put emphasis on the ones they already got. Meanwhile, a Sue, which has no interest in any of that kind of stuff, can stuff themselves with as few or as many techniques as they want, because the techniques, for all purposes, essentially don't exist.
So, lots of techniques does not equal Sue. It might imply a Sue, it might be a symptom of a Sue, but it doesn't equal a Sue. Don't get me wrong - I will be very suspicious of a character with heaps of skills as opposed to one with a more moderate amount. And I do not think that I am incorrect in being so. But, nah, doesn't outright indicate one, I don't think.
"A Mary Sue has lots of techniques and powers essentially for bragging rights - you'll see a million Sues get bestowed heaps of abilities and powers which will get used once to show off and be forgotten, which aren't shown at all, or which are used but don't even affect the plot or anything."
*ahem* WinX Club.
-Twistey
You get a wingsuit... for one level. You get a climby sticky hand thing... for one level. You get a robot drone thing... for one level. See the problem here? Having loads and loads of abilities that are only used once and never spoken of again is not necessarily the hallmark of a Mary Sue, but it is bad writing.
I agree with what you said, but I feel like there should be a distinction made between gadget based characters and ability based characters. Gadget based characters like spec ops soldiers or batman have external abilities. It's not exactly practical for soldiers to carry every single piece of military hardware available to them, they would only bring what is practical and relevant to the mission. So I think in CoD, this is sort of justified. Of course, if it was an ability based character, doing the same thing isn't good writing unless their powers are the "bag of tricks" type.
I mean, if we have an agent with powers to do anything within a set of like powers (e.g. any element, summon any creature), but the power is selected at random without the agent having any control over it, that'd be some pretty good plot and even better comedy.
Back on topic, I do see your point about the CoD thing. It is, however, disappointing to gamers who have grown fond of a particular gadget :P
-Twistey
Othinus from Toaru Majutsu no Index is omnipotent, her godhood gives her infinite possibilities. Unfortunately, infinite possibilities means infinite good and infinite bad possibilities. As a result, she had a 50 percent chance of absolutely succeeding and 50 percent chance of absolutely failing in whatever she tries to do using her powers.
Kite from Hunter×Hunter also had a dice based ability. He rolls a dice and gets whatever ability or tool he has linked to the number he rolled. 4 was a scythe, I think.
(I almost became a mini by typing "twistedwindeowpane". Glad I caught myself. Whew.)
That's pretty interesting with both. Probabilities are quite fun to have as a factor for magic in fantasy. There's also Ladybug from Miraculous, but I don't remember if her Lucky Charm ability is random or not - however, she gets an item and has to figure out how to use it to do whatever it is that she's trying to do. That's a pretty cool ability, because it combines powers with smarts instead of just being 100% power.
-Twistey
(You're referring to Ladybug, right?) She has to figure out how this item is going to fix the situation, which means she has to use her head a bit, which means brownie points in my book.
-Twistey
So basically what you are saying it that having a somewhat large moveset that does not defy canon is fine if it is used in the story, not plot breaking, and relevant? Would you consider it a decrease in character relevance if some techniques overlapped in usage (such as a character having both a fire fist and lightning fist attack)?
You can't look at a list of powers and abilities a character has and use that, and that alone, to determine if they're poorly written or not. It's a bit of a cliche to say, perhaps, but the importance is less about what the powers are and more about the how and why of them. Why does your character have fire and lightning fist? Is it related to their character development or the plot at all? Would they be affected negatively if you took those powers away? I was talking to Mikel on the Discord thingy and he mentioned Kakashi as an example - his character is that of a prodigy and (as far as I am aware) a sort of mentor-teacher type. It would, for his character development and his role in the plot, make absolutely no sense if you took his techniques and all away.
You can't judge the powers on their own merits, essentially - there is nothing inherently wrong with a character having both a fire and a lightning fist, just as there is nothing inherently wrong with a character having omnipotence or a character being entirely made of jellybeans. When you're just looking at a character's powers, separated from an actual story or their character development, you're looking at a concept, which really can't be judged at all. It all depends on why your fellow has the fire and lightning fists and what role they have in the story and to the character.
I only asked if you would consider redundant abilites bad even if it is plot relevant. So I will take that as a no. Don't get me wrong, I don't judge a character until I read the story; in fact, I am perfectly fine with having a lot of abilities, so long as it is consistent with canon and the character. We are actually in agreement here.