Not if the fic is to remain logical

Subject: Not if the fic is to remain logical
Author: RemnantShadow
Posted on: 2017-07-02 15:29:00 UTC

Well I do have to make my characters outsmart opponents either way. But, if I take away the stuff that makes them powerful, many people will question how my characters are even making a scratch, outsmart or no; it's not as if my characters have access to PPC technology. I have already limited their power to the minimum required to plausibly beat a Huckebein member via smarts; and, I have given them drastic consequences to using full power. I am really stuck on what to do, any less powerful and my characters have to rely on deus ex machinas to win.

If you want a reference to how powerful the villains are, check out the Standing in the Battledome portion of this link and maybe a couple of the Huckebein pages, especially Curren, Cypha, and DeVille:
http://www.outskirtsbattledomewiki.com/index.php/14-fiction-profiles/525-magical-girl-lyrical-nanoha

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Hi by RemnantShadow on 2017-06-10 03:08:00 UTC Reply

Hi guys. So I recently stumbled upon PPC while hunting for good fanfic. I read the constitution and started on the original series and I really liked it. English is not my first language, so I may make some silly mistakes. Please do point them out, I need to improve. My first language is Cantonese, and I speak mandarin and rudimentary Japanese as well. I look forward to having fun with you guys.

P.S. I might look for some help regarding fanfic I am writing, if that's okay. Some betas are saying my OCs are Mary Sues.

Eyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy~ by twistedwindowpane on 2017-06-23 23:36:00 UTC Reply

My newbie gift for you is a knife and a pistol. Use them wisely until you can find better weapons.

Anyway, you say people are calling your OCs Mary Sues? Well, maybe I can help. Give me some short descriptions of your OCs, as well as their scores on the Universal Mary Sue Litmus Test (and preferably what you clicked), and maybe I can help you out. I'm good with helping people fix OCs based on short descriptions and bios.

-Twistey
Links:

The Universal Mary Sue Litmus Test:
http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm

And in case you want to get the references I made with my newbie gift:
http://wolfenstein.wikia.com/wiki/Wolf_3D

That Litmus Test... by RemnantShadow on 2017-06-24 17:30:00 UTC Reply

Well my characters generally scored in the 22-29 or 30-35 range depending on how I interpreted the questions. I mainly clicked on awesome powers, tragic past, badass clothes, strong despite being looking delicate, and slight connection to the canon characters.
Anyways, here is a link to my character profiles, they are a bit long because I went into detail regarding usage of a few made up techniques. There is a Tl;Dr at the bottom.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/13rEYshBxcW4eQA1tKgmkmMNFOSW-Y4QXSmge1LStEkI/edit?usp=sharing

...Hmm... by twistedwindowpane on 2017-06-25 18:23:00 UTC Reply

Judging by what you clicked alone, that stuff is usually what makes a stereotypical Mary Sue, but there is the angle that if the universe says that what they have is common for anyone... I'll check the doc.

(One doc-checking session later...)

I think I'll just put in comments labeled with my signature for advice. See you there!

-Twistey

Thanks (nm) by RemnantShadow on 2017-06-26 01:16:00 UTC Reply

While I wait for the Naruto experts to arrive... by twistedwindowpane on 2017-06-26 20:48:00 UTC Reply

...here's a bunch of Naruto-specific litmus tests (and one rant book).

-Twistey

http://narutooriginals.wikia.com/wiki/NarutoFandom:MarySueTest

https://www.proprofs.com/quiz-school/personality/quizshow.php?title=is-your-naruto-original-character-mary-sue&q=1

http://www.quibblo.com/quiz/iqNgzNy/Is-your-Naruto-OC-a-Mary-Sue

https://www.wattpad.com/22384354-how-to-tell-if-your-naruto-fanfic-is-a-suefic

https://www.wattpad.com/32867929-naruto-cliches-rant-naruto-fan-fic-naruto-mary-sue

Did the tests by RemnantShadow on 2017-06-27 17:10:00 UTC Reply

Passed the second and third one, the fourth one doesn't apply to me because I did not create a kekkei genkai. The first one I am a bit iffy about, mainly because it assumes the OC was raised in one of the villages and born naturally, mine are synthetic like Mitsuki. It also accounts for only the Manga canon whereas I used a composite canon. I also did not do anything included in the rant.

Okay then. by twistedwindowpane on 2017-06-28 23:48:00 UTC Reply

Maybe people think of your OCs as Sueish because of cliches and abnormalities, not actual overpowered-ness or canon breaking. In that case, be sure to check your OCs for anything cliche, and for all your OCs' traits, if the same effect could be achieved without using an uncommon trait, alter them so you don't use it. For instance, I haven't seen too much in the backstory that depends on them being synthetic humans specifically (and I'm still confused on why they have to be attempts at cloning a canon), so maybe they could be some other kind of criminal before they were caught and asked to work for Naruto and crew. Or maybe they could still be synthetic, just not cloning attempts; I think that connection to a canon is part of what triggers the "Sue!" response in most people, no matter if cloning actually can happen in canon. Let me know your thoughts.

-Twistey

About cloning by RemnantShadow on 2017-06-29 15:11:00 UTC Reply

I guess is was my fault for putting there word clone in there, let me rephrase, they are synthetic people created with the DNA of canon characters as a base. Their abilities really does actually require them to be artificial; their abilities require specific bloodlines that don't have members married to each other, so I need them to be synthesized with specific clan combinations as a base.

That's kind of what I meant by "cloning". by twistedwindowpane on 2017-06-30 00:42:00 UTC Reply

But still, is there a way to get through these challenges without creating characters that people accuse of being Sues? I gave you a few ideas in the doc. If you want to, you can read more missions so that you get ideas about how an underpowered character (PPC agent/Hypothetically!Your OCs) can defeat an overpowered character (Mary Sue/main villain) by outsmarting them.

-Twistey

Not if the fic is to remain logical by RemnantShadow on 2017-07-02 15:29:00 UTC Reply

Well I do have to make my characters outsmart opponents either way. But, if I take away the stuff that makes them powerful, many people will question how my characters are even making a scratch, outsmart or no; it's not as if my characters have access to PPC technology. I have already limited their power to the minimum required to plausibly beat a Huckebein member via smarts; and, I have given them drastic consequences to using full power. I am really stuck on what to do, any less powerful and my characters have to rely on deus ex machinas to win.

If you want a reference to how powerful the villains are, check out the Standing in the Battledome portion of this link and maybe a couple of the Huckebein pages, especially Curren, Cypha, and DeVille:
http://www.outskirtsbattledomewiki.com/index.php/14-fiction-profiles/525-magical-girl-lyrical-nanoha

I guess you could make them older? by twistedwindowpane on 2017-07-03 17:40:00 UTC Reply

A good way to balance out power is to think like an RPG game: there's only so much XP to be gained per level (in this case, levels are years of training), and you can spend it all on one skill or you can spend a little on each skill you've got, or any other combo. But you can't be a master of every skill you have if you're only at, say, level 2. So if you make your characters older (more levels), you can make them more powerful (more spent XP).

However, a word of caution. Since your fic is focused around battle and is a crossover between two worlds that have significant differences in what's considered normal for combat abilities, you must take extreme care with regards to this stuff, or otherwise your fic might just be doomed from the beginning. I thought about this overnight and at first I thought it was going to be doomed one hundred percent, but then I remembered that you seem to know what you're doing.

This is the only other advice that I'm really capable of giving; otherwise I'm out of ideas. It is good, however, that you started that other thread to ask for others' opinions.

-Twistey

Thanks by RemnantShadow on 2017-07-04 08:43:00 UTC Reply

I will keep all this in mind as I write. Also, that thread I started wasn't actually about my OCs, although there is a connection. I just thought it was unfair to many fanfic authors that their balanced characters get called out for having one or two outstanding traits, not necessarily my OCs which I know need a lot of work. Thanks again for taking your time to help.

Ahhhhhh I see now by twistedwindowpane on 2017-07-04 18:48:00 UTC Reply

Yeah, there are people who call characters Mary Sues for one or two traits they have. The fact is that tropes can indeed be subverted - for example, many bad Creepypasta fan characters are catgirls, but I have drawn multiple legitimately scary catgirls that one would hate to be around in the middle of the night. (Although I think I overdid the wounds on one of them, because now she looks like a domestic violence victim; I should probably fix that.)

But back on topic, you're welcome for the help and, if all else fails, consider putting a disclaimer with reasoning behind your characters' abilities at the beginning of your fic. That way, people might understand better.

-Twistey

Also, don't forget to ask around and get more people's help. by twistedwindowpane on 2017-06-29 00:34:00 UTC Reply

Because being only slightly exposed to Naruto, I can only do so much. :P

-Twistey

~Paging Naruto experts~ by twistedwindowpane on 2017-06-25 18:39:00 UTC Reply

I don't know too much about the specifics of things in the Naruto world, so I can only help RS a little with basic concepts and whatnot. Perhaps somebody could come help with details?

(In the meantime, I'd like Remnant to also take a Naruto Mary-Sue test, just because fandom-specific litmus tests are helpful for figuring out what's normal and what's pushing it for a specific world.)

-Twistey

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What's the fic you're writing about?

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Fanfic by RemnantShadow on 2017-06-10 05:30:00 UTC Reply

i am writing a Naruto fanfic with 4 OCs. The origin story is set after the Toneri incident but the main story is set 3 years after Momoshiki's attack. The timeline splits off from canon after Momoshiki, as in it ignores the existence of Boruto: Next Generation. It is going to crossover with RWBY and Lyrical Nanoha.

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Hey there! Have a plate of freshly-made SPaGhetti!

So what are some of your fandoms?

Fandoms by RemnantShadow on 2017-06-10 03:46:00 UTC Reply

I don't particularly associate with fandoms per se, it can get pretty toxic. Although I am a big fan of Nasuverse, Lyrical Nanoha, and Toaruverse. I am also quite knowledgeable in Naruto, Bleach and Dragonball. Also, while I can see that the PPC don't really like Eragon, it is a bit of a guilty pleasure of mine.