Of course they should?

Subject: Of course they should?
Author: Hieronymus Graubart
Posted on: 2017-05-11 13:10:00 UTC

I mean, if the purpose of this is to show what good betaing looks like, we would assume that all participants are already good at betaing, and we would just get a more diverse version of Option Two.

I'm under the impression that this, rather than being a demonstration, is an exercise (open to newbies who never beta read before) in doing the full beta process, which in my understanding and to my experience is not done by reading it once and putting up some comments. But I may be wrong. It's up to PC to clarify the details.

HG

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Proposal/Discussion: A Beta Training Exercise by PoorCynic on 2017-05-10 03:31:00 UTC Reply

I've been going through the various posts in the Grand Concilliary, and I've seen multiple suggestions regarding somehow teaching people how to be better betas. I think this is an excellent idea, and I'm more than willing to head up a little activity for all willing participants.

I have two ideas in mind (based on the main thread). I'll put them both below for comment and feedback. Whichever one appears to be more popular by next Tuesday, I'll launch as the actual activity.

Proposal One: The Blind Beta Exchange

Every participant writes a two to four page story. It can be PPC-related, but it doesn't have to be. Want to make it about your unrelated original universe? Sure, I'm game! The Organizer (that is, me) will then take the stories and assign them randomly to all participants for betaing so as to avoid any bias. Once everything's been done, the beta'd stories are returned to me, and I will post them—without names—in a specific thread. Then, everyone can publicly comment on the beta notes. Once that's done, everyone reveals who they were. We learn a little bit about betaing, and maybe a little bit about ourselves.

Proposal Two: Watch and Learn

This one has a little less participation, but could potentially be more instructive. In this case, an experienced beta would volunteer to go through an example piece. Everyone can watch, read, and ask questions/give feedback. Perhaps multiple veterans can be called in, so as to demonstrate different methods and approaches.

On a slight tangent, I'm also going to be posting an example of what I feel is very good beta work (not mine, although it was of something I did) either tonight or tomorrow. Perhaps that might help some people come to a decision.

If you have questions, comments, or suggestions for other activities, I'm happy to hear them.

PoorCynic

Good Beta Work: An Example by PoorCynic on 2017-05-11 19:38:00 UTC Reply

As promised! Posted below are the notes that JulyFlame gave me back in 2012 for my AU interlude "Five Stages". Yes, I hung onto them for several years because I thought they were that good.

I'm not suggesting that every time you beta, you need to do something like this. I would argue, however, that aiming for something like this would be a good goal.

The notes themselves.

If anyone else has old beta notes they think are particularly good, you are more then welcome to post them here (just make sure to get your beta's permission first).

These are amazing by Hieronymus Graubart on 2017-05-18 11:06:00 UTC Reply

… both the stories and the concrit. I usually don't put this much thought into my beta-reading; I'm more the proofreader type of beta.

Unfortunately, I will probably not participate in the Blind Beta Workshop. Preparations for my surgery are much more time-consuming and tiring than I head expected.

Since I can't ever not notice these things:

It was if all other colors had been bleached out of the world.
Shouldn't this be "It was as if..."?

Someone was behind her, pushing him along.
Who is he? Should this be either "her" (Laura) or "it" (the wheelchair)?

It was pose that might have passed without comment if could you ignore that she was sitting in a pool of blood.
Should be "a pose" (July already told you that)?
Should either be "could you" (apparently you had this initially) or "if you could", just inserting the "if" made it worse.

How is my not being as competent a combatant as you an excuse?
I think "my" should be "me", but given the situation I wouldn’t insist that Danny remembers that.

The woman frowned ever so slightly for just few seconds.
Should be "a few seconds"?

What if I ordered you to to murder someone?
I wouldn’t expect Death to stutter.

When my times comes.
Should be "time" (singular)?

She was further surprised when the receptionist sent her directly to Freedenburg’s office
His name is "Freedenberg".

Thank you coming in on such short notice. and
I summoned you down here because I believe that another agent in trouble.
Does Doc Freedenberg have a habit of leaving out words, or should these be
"Thank you for coming in" and "... that another agent is in trouble"?

HG

Seeing an example of really good beta work would be nice. by Hieronymus Graubart on 2017-05-11 13:59:00 UTC Reply

Also, I like both options, but since everybody is so eager to submit stories, it will probably be Proposal One, so I'll try to come up with another interlude. I like the random assignment, but I don't believe that everything can be kept anonymous until the end; the author of an interlude with Agents Androia and Hieronymus is not difficult to guess. Also, there is some uncertainty about technicalities.

Unlike some others here, I'm mostly available now, but may not be around after the end of this month (having some surgery to be done).

HG
They both sound potentially fun and interesting. by doctorlit on 2017-05-11 13:15:00 UTC Reply

The drawback to proposal is that we couldn't use our own characters, as that would give away the writers' identities. I don't really have any plotbunnies/interest in non-PPC writing right now. So I guess proposal two sounds best to me.

—doctorlit
First proposal sounds good by CodeCom on 2017-05-11 12:05:00 UTC Reply

I'm busy with exams until the 18th though.
I'd be up for either. by Novastorme on 2017-05-11 12:00:00 UTC Reply

Although I'm going to be very busy with exams until the 17th so I don't know how much I'll be able to write until after then.
Yeah, I can get behind this. by Huinesoron on 2017-05-11 09:00:00 UTC Reply

I think Proposal One sounds better - it actually achieves exactly the same thing as Proposal Two, but with more versions to look at!

I'm sure I can knock something together. I assume you don't want fanfic - ie, you don't want stories which require canon knowledge to beta?

hS
Sounds good! by Elcalion on 2017-05-11 08:15:00 UTC Reply

I think Proposal One sounds the most constructive, although not sure if I'd have time to participate myself.

Elcalion
Sounds great! by KittyEden on 2017-05-11 02:37:00 UTC Reply

Like most people have said already, Proposal One sounds like the best. Also like most people, I'm not sure if I could write something in time (exam week, you know). But I'll definitely be down for beta-ing!
I'd be up for this. by Granz the Ice Cream Monarch on 2017-05-11 00:10:00 UTC Reply

In particular, Proposal One. It sounds interesting and it's something to get me writing.
Sounds great by Cat-on-the-Keyboard on 2017-05-10 23:31:00 UTC Reply

Proposal one in particular sounds like so much fun. . . but if it's happening this next couple of weeks, I'll be crazy busy and the only "story" I'd be able to submit would be a college application essay I'm working on :/ (I'd probably be able to beta, though. . .). But yeah, I think that sounds really useful and fun, and like something which could become a recurring community event if it goes well ^.^

--Key
I'm in favour of this. by Scapegrace on 2017-05-10 16:06:00 UTC Reply

I mean, I probably won't be taking part, but I'm in favour of the general concept.
I'm up for either. by Neshomeh on 2017-05-10 16:04:00 UTC Reply

Not sure I can crank out even a 2-4 page story by next Tuesday for Prop One, but if I can use this as an excuse to garner feedback on a story I've already written, I'm game. ^_^; In fact, I have two of the right length, if somebody else needs a pass on writing something new! I would actually really love some insight into why one has gotten more attention than the other. It's been baffling me.

... Except it might be obvious they're mine, though. Would that be a problem? Since the betas will be anonymous, they won't have to worry about offending me.

Failing that, I will try to actually write something. There's got to be some little scene I can draw out of my brain...

~Neshomeh

Would the betas be anonymous from the writers? by Larfen J. Stocke, esq. on 2017-05-10 22:33:00 UTC Reply

Dunno how possible that is! I know there are people who, assuming we're using GDocs, I'd recognise their accounts in a second, and people who'd recognise mine. Not even to mention distinctive sorts of things in writing styles, or whatnot.

There's a lot of people whose accounts I wouldn't recognise, of course, and I'd argue that the distinctive writing style stuff makes up for that, but I very specifically remember getting fooled by that one anonymous vampire-guy story you wrote a bit back. Got me good. To be fair, I am pretty dumb. But, still, I wonder if that's really possible, or entirely needed? The randomising of betas for stories seems to fulfil a lot of the unbiased-ness stuff, anyhow.

I mean, it probably is possible and I'm completely blind to it. Changing accounts or whatnot.

We don't have to use Gdocs by Cat-on-the-Keyboard on 2017-05-12 22:33:00 UTC Reply

The authors could just post their unedited stories on the Board, and the betas could leave their feedback as replies. That way, we'd have a full record of the whole process. No technical difficulties there -- posting on the Board anonymously is so easy, people do it by accident! I've seen similar structures for writing exercises work really well elsewhere on the Internet ~~mostly in NSFW settings~~.

--Key

Well. by Larfen J. Stocke, esq. on 2017-05-13 10:06:00 UTC Reply

That was an underwhelmingly simple solution. I got a three page story and the whole thing fit in quite nicely, too, so nothing wrong, there.

Well.
That was underwhelming.
Jolly good!

~~Also I don't know why you added that last part now I'm real curious except you can't answer it because it's NSFW why must you taunt me like this Key, is this revenge for what I did to your garage?~~

Actually, commenting on Gdocs anonymously is possible. by Hieronymus Graubart on 2017-05-11 12:05:00 UTC Reply

I beta-read several Gdocs not being loged in before I finally got an account to put my own stories up for beta-reading.

PoorCynic just needs to set the Gdoc's properties to "everybody can comment" (supposed that they can even see the document) and "everybody who has the link can read", where the assigned beta is the only person to whom PC sends the link. If you got the link and want to stay anonymous, just be careful to not login (or to deliberately logout) before you open the document, and you will be assigned a random name like "anonymous goldfish".

The bigger problem is keeping the authors anonymous while they edit the document in response to the comments. This may actually involve copying the commented document so that the author can edit without the beta watching, and then copying the revised document back into the copy on PC's account that the beta can see (or making a new copy and sending a new link to the beta) for another read-through.

Setting the properties to "everybody can edit" (supposed that they can even see the document), where only the author and the beta get links to the copy owned by PC might spare PC a lot of tedious work, but would set up an unrealistic situation, because betas usually should only make suggestions, but should not be able to edit directly.

(Note that I don't know the exact wording of the properties, because Google talks German to me.)

HG

Do the authors need to revise them? by Huinesoron on 2017-05-11 12:15:00 UTC Reply

I mean, if the purpose of this is to show what good betaing looks like, then I'd think it was better to show the original, un-beta'd story and the comments, rather than the edited version. Maybe?

I guess this is where Option Two came in, since it would let people watch the whole process rther than just the first stage...

hS

Of course they should? by Hieronymus Graubart on 2017-05-11 13:10:00 UTC Reply

I mean, if the purpose of this is to show what good betaing looks like, we would assume that all participants are already good at betaing, and we would just get a more diverse version of Option Two.

I'm under the impression that this, rather than being a demonstration, is an exercise (open to newbies who never beta read before) in doing the full beta process, which in my understanding and to my experience is not done by reading it once and putting up some comments. But I may be wrong. It's up to PC to clarify the details.

HG
I think it'd be good to keep them unedited. by Larfen J. Stocke, esq. on 2017-05-11 12:39:00 UTC Reply

I mean, at first, anyhow. It serves to show the betaing process so it can get seen and commented on by everyone else, and also keeps the context of what's actually being beta'd. Which will certainly be a whole lot smoother, I imagine!

Perhaps it could have two stages - the first stage, in which the stories, unedited and commented on, are posted, are seen, get concrit, et al. And then, a bit later on, there'd be the second stage, where the fics are all finished and polished and fancy, with no comments and all the advice having been accounted for, and just get sort've posted. For funsies.

The first stage is, obviously, the one that's more relevant to the whole 'learning to beta' thing, but it's nice to see the finished products, too, innit? Like, Iunno, Masterchef, when they do a close-up dolly shot of the single nugget of beef with leaf on the side, after it's been made and judged. Or some such. I don't watch MasterChef much.

Re: I think it'd be good to keep them unedited. by Miah on 2017-05-11 18:36:00 UTC Reply

I would suggest a third, intermediate stage showing the communication between the betas and the authors that comes between the initial comments and the polished product.

I'd assume... by Huinesoron on 2017-05-11 08:57:00 UTC Reply

... PoorCynic would copy the stories into new docs on his account, and then copy the commented versions to new new docs. I know there's a way of doing that that strips the names from comments.

hS

Proposal One looks good! by Larfen J. Stocke, esq. on 2017-05-10 08:02:00 UTC Reply

Looks to be a pretty solid idea, in general. Proposal Two looks like it'll be a bit awkward, y'know? Dunno in what way we'll be able to contact the veteran, but I imagine it might be a touch awkward, whether it's vocal chat or just the GDocs chat window thingy. Lots've people asking questions to one fellow, who's got to divide lots of attention about. Also Proposal One looks more fun, which is my middle name. The 'J' is silent, and also invisible.

I suppose you'll need emails, or some such? I assume there will be PMing involved, if we're keeping the randomised betafellows secret.
I love both, but prefer Proposal One. by Alleb on 2017-05-10 05:02:00 UTC Reply

I'd be very much game for participating in that. Good idea all around, PC!

-Alleb