Beards!

Subject: Beards!
Author: Huinesoron
Posted on: 2016-12-22 15:27:00 UTC

Okay, the short answer here is 'because Tolkien invented them before he decided Elves didn't have beards'. But that's boring.

It's impossible to know when the leaders of the three tribes - Ingwe, Finwe, Elwe and Olwe - were born. They probably /were/ born rather than awakening, because Elwe and Olwe are brothers: not a relationship that makes much sense among the first to wake. But we don't know for sure.

Cirdan and Mahtan are in the same boat. Cirdan is a leader while Mahtan is just a smith, but they /could/ both be first-generation. We don't know for sure.

Our best understanding is that Cirdan awoke at Cuivienen, or at least was born before any other elf we know of. He's in what Tolkien called the third stage of his life - essentially, old age. Elves grow beards in the third stage.

Mahtan isn't. He's in the second stage (adulthood)... but he's also one of those rare elves who are bearded in the second stage. It's just a thing, like being left-handed.

hS

Reply Return to messages

Jump to this post's position in the thread ↴

I translated the names of all Overwatch heroes into Quenya. by Alleb on 2016-12-20 03:06:00 UTC Reply

Because I wasn't nerdy enough before.

The translations are as close as I could get to the meanings of their names; feel free to offer suggestions or corrections.

Let's get started.

Lucio: Lindërma, the music weapon--that's a more thematic translation. "Lucio" means "light," however, so also Calinarma, the weapon made from a ray of light.

Genji: Vanwaryan, the past prince. The best meaning I could get for his name was "one who used to be royalty," or "one fallen from royalty."

McCree: Maraitëo, he of grace, or he who has grace.

Fareeha (Pharah): Alassiel, daughter of joy.

Reaper: Yavion, the harvester.

Soldier 76: Ohtar Otso Enquë, Warrior Seven Six. Alternatively, Ohtarsoquë, but that's literally mashing numbers together, so that probably won't work.

Sombra: Haldië, she who is veiled in shadows.

Tracer: Sórélë, trail of flashing light.

Bastion: Métimanta, the last fortress.

Hanzo: Perefëa, half a soul.

Junkrat: Úmarro, rat of uselessness (I did my best; there's no word in Quenya for "junk." Seriously; not even anything like "waste" or "trash.")

Mei: Vanyarië, beautiful woman.

Torbjörn: Fanorco, the bearded bear.

Widowmaker: Venehtar, the husband slayer.

D.Va: Pityarven, the petty beast.

Reinhardt: Verúvië. I don't actually remember for sure what the exact translation means--I believe it's something on the order of "wise counsel," or maybe "strong decision." Both are valid translations of "Reinhardt."

Roadhog: Tëapolca, the road pig.

Zarya: Anórië, she is the sunrise.

Winston: Ondolassë, the joyful stone.

Ana: Manallë, graceful woman.

Mercy: Óravië, the merciful woman.

Symmetra: Imyasta, same parts (again, I did my best--there's no word for "symmetry," and while "same sides" would have been great, there is no word for "sides" either).

Zenyatta: Ilyata, everything (Zenyatta has no actual meaning, and his other title, Tekhartha, means "one who has reached enlightenment." That would be great, except there isn't a word for "enlightenment").

So... How'd I do? *grins hopefully*

-Alleb

On Hanzo and Genji by Desdendelle on 2016-12-20 15:16:00 UTC Reply

From what I've been hearing, Genji's name is possibly a shoutout to non other than Hikaru Genji, the protagonist of the first known novel in the word, and Hanzo was possibly named after Hattori Hanzou Masanori, who was a famous vassal of Tokugawa Ieyasu and the leader of the Iga ninja clan.

Going on this, it is possible to find the Kanji used for their names, and therefore their meanings:
1) Genji is 源氏. The first Kanji stands for "origin", while the second stands for "clan", so it roughly means "original clan". You can alternatively read it as "Minamoto clan".
2) Hanzou is 半蔵. The first Kanji stands for "half" (it's the same one you use to denote half-hours), while the second stands for "own, possess" but also "hide". I'd imagine "half-hidden" or "half-owned" might work.

Well, let's see. *cracks knuckles* by Alleb on 2016-12-21 15:03:00 UTC Reply

There is a word for "originate," but not "original," and it doesn't blend well with "nossë" for clan, so we're gonna substitute "original" for "first." This gives us Minyanossë for Genji.

Looking back, hS was definitely correct: I should have used perta for half. There are several words glossed as "hidden." Muina, "secret," works the best, which gives us Pertamuina, half secret. I would have done "half-imagined" if I could, but the best I could get was "half-imagination," which makes poor Hanzo sound desperately unimaginative, rather than sneaky.

-Alleb
Cipher to the rescue! by Matt Cipher on 2016-12-20 16:38:00 UTC Reply

There ya go, hope it helps :P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Xth8OsQaDo

Okay so look: this is your fault. by Huinesoron on 2016-12-20 09:57:00 UTC Reply

I like the names - I admit I don't know the first thing about Overwatch, but I like the names in and of themselves. Alassiel springs out as a good one, as do Anórië, Ondolassë, Venehtar (as a nice bilingual reference to 'Venator', "hunter")... like I said, I like them. There's a couple that use dodgy definitions (I've discussed 'pitya' elsewhere), and I'm almost certain 'Perefea' should be 'Pertafea'... actually you've got a habit of shoving too many letters together, I think... but I like them.

Looking particularly at Úmarro, which ought to suffer from both definition-issues and over-squashing... I think it's good regardless. ^_^ 'Mara' is glossed as useful, but mostly means good, or fit for purpose... which fits a lot better, actually, since unfit can easily mean 'broken'. And the r-r linking with nyarro is just unavoidable.

And it sounds like a name, one that growls its way off the tongue.

Anyway, like I said: this is your fault. I couldn't help thinking about the people the Quenya names would be attached to. Near as I can tell, they're a Feanorian elite team who first saw action at the Dagor-nuin-Giliath. They were the ones who stopped Morgoth's forces from crossing the mountains, earning them their nickname of Orotirnor, or 'High Watchers'.

I haven't drawn all of them... but here are the first ten on your list. (In order, because I'm not cruel.)

I've tried to stay roughly faithful to the character design, while making it something that fits Middle-earth. And yes, McCree/Maraiteo has a beard - they do happen, they're just not common among younger Eldar.

hS

:D by Alleb on 2016-12-21 14:51:00 UTC Reply

Eee, I'm so glad you like them! I'll try to curb the "too many letters" thing. Also, I'm surprised both you and DJ like Alassiel. I was a bit disappointed in that one, honestly, since it's the generic "daughter of" thing. But hey, if it works!

These drawings.

They are beautiful. (Also is that a stylized Rebel Alliance mark at the top!?)

Ehehe! They're perfect! I love Bastion. And Lucio's face. XD Lucio is my main, and it's perfect. Man, I'm so glad you drew these! They're excellent! Question: How would you represent a Silm!Pharah?

-Alleb

I think that's why. by Huinesoron on 2016-12-21 15:35:00 UTC Reply

The reason it's so generic is that, well, even elves are unimaginative sometimes (hence the ridiculousness of House Finwe), and in this case you've got the a-a, l-l, and ss all working together to give a beautiful flow: a-LASS-i-el.

It's not a Rebel phoenix, though I had to work hard to make it less so; it's a Silm-ised Overwatch logo/emblem/whatever. Complete with Tree of Gondor-inspired upper arc. ^_^

Pharah... I did Pharah, right? Fourth in the top row. I gave her an eaglesque helmet and a split cloak for the wings, plus heavy armour. She can't fly, but she's got a powerful bow (biggest one I drew, I think) that can cut down distant targets almost as if she could.

I'm glad you liked the pics, at any rate; it was fun trying to infuse them with the same character as the original images (hindered by the fact that I know nooooothing). And I was pleased to be able to give so many of them non-bow weapons!

hS

House Finwe's naming politics never cease to amuse me. by Alleb on 2016-12-22 14:28:00 UTC Reply

Particularly since you'd never know the jokes unless you had at least some knowledge of Quenya, or took the time to look up each translation. I like to imagine Tolkien chuckling away at his typewriter, shaking his head at how silly his own characters are being.

Oh, duh! *facepalm* Shoulda seen that. I like it!

Aaand another facepalm, because I am blind. ~~Maybe she can jump really high or something?~~

You did excellently! I think Lucio, Bastion, and Tracer are my favorites. That face Lucio is making--that is a Lucio face.

Also, random question: why do Mahtan and Cirdan have beards, but not Finwe or Thingol? They woke up first, so they must be older than Mahtan and Cirdan.

-Alleb

Beards! by Huinesoron on 2016-12-22 15:27:00 UTC Reply

Okay, the short answer here is 'because Tolkien invented them before he decided Elves didn't have beards'. But that's boring.

It's impossible to know when the leaders of the three tribes - Ingwe, Finwe, Elwe and Olwe - were born. They probably /were/ born rather than awakening, because Elwe and Olwe are brothers: not a relationship that makes much sense among the first to wake. But we don't know for sure.

Cirdan and Mahtan are in the same boat. Cirdan is a leader while Mahtan is just a smith, but they /could/ both be first-generation. We don't know for sure.

Our best understanding is that Cirdan awoke at Cuivienen, or at least was born before any other elf we know of. He's in what Tolkien called the third stage of his life - essentially, old age. Elves grow beards in the third stage.

Mahtan isn't. He's in the second stage (adulthood)... but he's also one of those rare elves who are bearded in the second stage. It's just a thing, like being left-handed.

hS

((pokes)) by Matt Cipher on 2016-12-20 18:19:00 UTC Reply

Just wanted to ask if you got my mail, mate? Or did I messed up the adresses.

Yah, I got it. Never fear. ^_^ (nm) by Huinesoron on 2016-12-20 19:18:00 UTC Reply

Ooooh by Delta Juliette on 2016-12-20 06:03:00 UTC Reply

I'm not sure how many people are into that particular intersection of fandoms, but I'm one of them!

Hm. I probably would have named Torbjörn Naugdur, but that's just me being silly.

I love Alassiel, and Vanyarië is a lovely name for Mei! I think my favorite is Imyasta.

How did you end up with Pityarven for D.Va? I don't see the connection, unless you've been run over by a D.Va recently?

Naugdur... I can see "Dwarf," but what's the rest? by Alleb on 2016-12-20 06:47:00 UTC Reply

I found "-dur" as "servant of" in Quenya and "dark" in Sindarin, but neither seems to fit.

Thanks! I think Yavion is my favorite, since it fits so nicely. I'm glad you like Imyasta--I was most unsure about that one, I think.

Well, I had a bit of trouble with D.Va. There isn't a word for "diva" in Quenya, nor a word for "pink," so I couldn't do a direct translation or a descriptive "pink beast." But divas are generally considered to be rather petty, overbearing people, and D.Va's mech is big, so "the petty beast" seemed an alright fit. Looking back, I should have translated Hana Song instead. Hana in Korean is "one," and Song is... Song, so that gives Linderëa (though "erëa" as "one" may have been abandoned by Tolkien, but it sounds pretty so I'm keeping it).

-Alleb

Speaking of short jokes... by Huinesoron on 2016-12-20 08:42:00 UTC Reply

"Pitya" means petty in the sense of 'small' (though frankly the Petty-dwarves were pretty petty in the other sense too); it shows up in Amrod's father-name "Pityafinwe", 'Little(st) Finwe'.

So you've basically called her Little Bigfoot. Looking at her picture, that's... surprisingly accurate. Small woman, big robot.

hS
In the Silm appendices... by Delta Juliette on 2016-12-20 07:03:00 UTC Reply

"-(n)dur" shows up next to "-(n)dil", as a name ending. So, Naugdur hopefully means something like "the dwarfy one".

(It's a short joke.)

Kinda. by Huinesoron on 2016-12-20 08:40:00 UTC Reply

-(n)dur literally means 'servant of', though in names it basically stands in for -(n)dil's 'friend of' when -(n)dil doesn't taste right.

Also you're using the rude name for dwarves (and in Sindarin at that - the Quenya is Naucor), the one that means 'stunted ones' (tsk!). It's far more polite to use the transliteration of their own name and call them Casari. But you didn't (XD), so you're naming him 'servant of ugly shorties'.

hS

Continuing to be a nerd... by Delta Juliette on 2016-12-20 06:39:00 UTC Reply

Suggestion: Angvainen for D.Va! Means "Iron-clad", which is both her job (fast-moving battleship) and a reasonable description (clad in giant robot armor).

Ooh, I like that! by Alleb on 2016-12-20 06:49:00 UTC Reply

It also sounds really cool when you say it out loud. Angvainen. Very nice!

-Alleb