Just for the sake of clarity

Subject: Just for the sake of clarity
Author: SpecstacularSC
Posted on: 2016-08-22 15:36:00 UTC

O hai Huin!

Considering I tried to twice send a comment that was moderated, and it never showed up.

NAR: Yes, that's... that's how moderation works, sometimes. I don't think 'twice' generalises to 'any and all'.

This would be because the comments he tried to post, in question, were riddled with so many links that he ended up setting off our spam filter, and his comments got moved to a folder where they were left to be reviewed by us. Upon seeing it was basically the same rant as was just riffed on (thanks for that, by the way. XD), we decided our site visitors didn't need to suffer that kind of idiocy and promptly deleted those comments.

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PPC got called out. by SpecstacularSC on 2016-08-22 13:58:00 UTC Reply

Hey folks. Yeah, so I haven't really been around much, have I? Sorry about that.

To the new kids, hi, I'm an old(-ish) face. Circa 2012, if I remember right?

To the rest of the people who may or may not remember me, well, hi, it's me again. Still a fan, just way, WAY more lurk-y than I used to be. Well, that, and IRL shenanigans.

Anyhow, to the meat of my post:

Having been hanging out over at the Library of the Damned for a while now, I've since become a full-time riffer with them, which - among other things - lets me join their discussions in their private Facebook group. One of the topics that recently got brought up was this:

A long time before I even knew about LotD, a fic by author Jedi Qui-Gon was riffed there. When he finally found out (by this point I was a guest riffer), he didn't take it well at first, but after some to-do about the matter, he suddenly started showing a change of heart and decided he wanted in on the fun. So, we thought, hey, cool, this guy gets it.

...No. No he doesn't.

In fact, about a week ago, we discovered that he went on to his DeviantART and called out anybody and everybody who riffs on badfics as terrible people, including the PPC. In fact, he even name drops you guys, right alongside the Library, though his focus was primarily on the Library, since he dealt with us most frequently. Amongst other key things, he had the nerve to try and claim that we were trying to stymie people's freedom of speech, that we don't "follow the rules of riffing" (you know, those rules that were drafted up in the 90's?), that we get super crazy defensive when criticized - all of it hogwash, and all of it insulting. Then he went on and took a stab at the very first riff I did with the Library, and the debacle with that author that went down. He tried to claim that we were bullying a rookie author who was just testing the waters and couldn't even be bothered to show her even the slightest shred of mercy.

You'll note in the comments on that journal that I let him have it but good, especially about that last part.

So, yeah. Just thought I should let you guys know, since it doesn't seem fair to leave you all in the dark about criticisms being leveled at you. Especially ones comprised of baseless slander. As for me, well, I'm pretty pissed off at that kid, so he'd be smart not to try and respond to me at all. Jury's out on how that'll pan out.

My response? by Trocyte V. on 2016-08-23 01:14:00 UTC Reply

Clearly this person has never heard of Reddit. People bash other people there like there's no tomorrow, but only if they deserve it, and they make sure that it doesn't go too far. (Case in point: TehVenomWithin. Huge scammer on the Team Fortress 2 community and uses a fence of lies to defend himself whenever he is mentioned, which isn't exactly good at all. Just sayin'.) Just like how the PPC handles and chooses which badfic to take care of.

What website are you going to? by Data Junkie on 2016-08-24 04:18:00 UTC Reply

Man, I dunno where you found this version of reddit, but the one I've been to, I had to leave because they allowed, and at times encouraged, misogynists, trans- and homophobes, racists, rape apologists, and literal Neo-Nazis.

Well... by Desdendelle on 2016-08-24 12:40:00 UTC Reply

I think that referring to Reddit as a single, monolithic site is wrong. Each subreddit is different; you have everything from regressive left echo-chambers to r/the_Donald (haven't seen actual neo-nazis yet) and anything in-between.
I am so sorry. by Trocyte V. on 2016-08-24 04:46:00 UTC Reply

The only sub I can think of that actually does this is /r/The_Donald behind-the-scenes, but then again, SRS exists for a reason, whether you like it or not. Same thing applies to when reddit posts get put up on cringe subs and /r/rage.

Also, today's members don't speak of the various incidents that match these particular types of people that have gone down. The original posts are like bio-hazards if you know what I mean.

Then again, the only subs I really browse are some defaults, games I like, and cringe subs.

And on top of that... by SkarmorySilver on 2016-08-23 02:17:00 UTC Reply

Our goal overall with sporking fics, I believe, is to HELP AUTHORS. Sure, we kill the Sues, but that isn't always the case, and sometimes we recruit them because they CAN be written better woth a little extra effort. But overall, what we do basically boils down to pointing out what the author did wrong with the story and writing, so they can look back and note that those are things to improve upon in the future.

Unless of course you're dealing with a fic so HORRIBLE that there really isn't any other option but to say, "Dude. Not Cool." And even then, it's largely trying to get the author to stop and think about what they have done, for the good of everyone. (Though with legendary badfics like, say, Agony in Pink, there really is no excuse. :/)

Not really... by son_of_heaven176 on 2016-08-28 06:20:00 UTC Reply

Granted, within the sphere of us Boarders, yes, we want to help each other improve, but as far as the badficcers, not so much. Recall that we do not go around telling authors that their works might be/have been sporked.

Granted, there have been some Boarders who have taken the route of offering concrit before sporking (Araeph comes to mind), and after hS's FFN series, I've seen some other Boarders leave concrit at the end of their missions, but IIRC (and please correct me if I'm wrong), the overall goal is more to make fun of badfic—if someone is helped by a mission, that's lagniappe.

I have to agree with Scape by Matt Cipher on 2016-08-22 20:43:00 UTC Reply

To quote a Persian proverb: "The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on."

Nah, that's fair. by SpecstacularSC on 2016-08-22 20:55:00 UTC Reply

Like I said, I just didn't like you guys not knowing it happened. I've already gotten after the guy myself, anyhow, so whatever happens at this point, happens.
We have that in Hebrew, too: by Desdendelle on 2016-08-22 20:52:00 UTC Reply

הכלבים נובחים והשיירה עוברת
But yeah, I also agree. So this guy "called out" the PPC. So what? It's evident he's clueless.

... And? by Scapegrace on 2016-08-22 18:10:00 UTC Reply

Someone on DeviantArt is a complete idiot who doesn't understand what the PPC is for, what riffing has become over the years, and basic bloody English.

Film.

At.

Eleven.

Can we not flame people, please? by Huinesoron on 2016-08-22 21:28:00 UTC Reply

Because calling people idiots isn't what the PPC is for, either.

hS

I retract my name-calling and apologise. by Scapegrace on 2016-08-23 10:45:00 UTC Reply

However, I don't think saying that a fevered, incompetent screed on someone's DeviantArt page is, er, a fevered, incompetent screed on someone's DeviantArt page constitutes flaming as much as a statement of fact.

The Spirit of the PPC is about having fun. by DCCCV on 2016-08-22 16:50:00 UTC Reply

It's a delicate balance, having fun and not hurting someone's feelings. It's why they don't broadcast it out that "Oh, we've spooked another one!" to the Greater Internet. Would you rather that they contacted you with the information that they've sporked your work, along with some criticism, if the brief story they wrote didn't illustrate all the things you've done wrong? Can you take the criticism that some people can and will heap on you, as per the apparently oft-not enforced rules of fanfiction.net, without attacking them? I understand that there are trolls out there who will intentionally reduce you to tears, but I assure you, The PPC is not that sort of people. I think I'll leave it at that, because anything else could bleed into my own opinions of morality and depravity.
Hey Specs. by Huinesoron on 2016-08-22 14:56:00 UTC Reply

So let's look at this thing. And in order to tick off the writer, I'm going to do so in MST form. ^_^

LOU: Hi; Agent Louise, formerly of DOGA here.

NAR: And, uh, Narto, ditto. Why are we doing this?

LOU: Because it's funny. Roll the tape.

MSTs, Protectors of the Plot continuum, and those that take after them by “following the leader”;

NAR: Wait, people follow the PPC's example? Since when?

LOU: Not since about 2008, I'm afraid.

a topic which is very sensitive flame-bait. Even more so when fanfics are the topic, which is the case here.

LOU: Unlike the times when we PPC things that aren't fanfic.

Was thinking about them and the moral questions that kept popping in.

NAR: Lou, didn't you say we ha- uh, were going to have grandkids who deal with the 'moral questions' of the PPC?

LOU: Different type of questions; this is external-viewpoint stuff.

NAR: Oh, right. That.

First the most worrisome one, it is a very serious one.

LOU: "My writing, it falls apart. Single-sentence paragraphs, like Yoda they sound."

I found this in TV tropes, it does not involve MSTs or PPC

NAR: So we're talking about it, why?

but it is a very real and possible scenario for the moral question.

Found via this link in the “N” section- http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/TearJerker/FanFiction

LOU: Whoa! Some warning on those lines, please!

NAR: ... what?

A Naruto Self-Insert Fic where a girl intentionally made her Self Insert a Mary Sue (She said so in the description.)

NAR: Is this one of those things where someone uses 'Mary Sue' differently to us, and then complains about it?

LOU: I don't think so, actually. Which is a relief.

who thought her two team members and her sensei loved her and was so confident they'd take a sword for her. Turns out, the two other members of the team absolutely hated her guts because she was so show-offy and smug. Then they tried to stop Hidan and Kakuzu, they literally didn't even try to save her as the others were trying to save their Sensei instead and literally threw her right in the way of Hidan's scythe and let him taste her blood so he wouldn't do that to them. Hidan then decided to break her legs and watch Kakuzu murder her sensei right in front of all three while the two members finally showed what they really thought of her and said "So you finally lose, miss perfect!'' and are then murdered. Hidan decides she wasn't worth his time and instead just stabs himself through the stomach so she'll bleed to death, rejected by her friends and for the first time in her life, tasting failure.

From Bad to Worse because she actually survived and the Raikage thought she was behind the Akatsuki invasion and the loss of Yugito, and she would have been executed by his hand if not for the fact that someone else spoke up and saved her...and she had told that one person to "... off" earlier in the fic because she hated him.

NAR: Hooooooly-

LOU: That sounds like a really bad story, actually. Is that the point being made here?

For the love of God post a link

LOU: FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DON'T.

I know the fic... unfortunately there's a meta tear jerker in there considering that the author had written the story (As well as many other extremely depressing fics!) but deleted them within about a year before vanishing off the internet, given that the author said she was really depressed and wrote the stories during a Creator Breakdown, chances are she might have actually committed suicide.

NAR: So the moral of the story is, uh... don't write while depressed, because it leads to messed-up fiction?

LOU: Don't read messed-up stories, because you might conclude on no evidence that the author committed suicide?

NAR: Don't-

LOU: AUGH!

Nar: What?

Felt great sadness reading it. And did not even know the story, writer, or anything.

LOU: Oh, hey, Yoda's back.

NAR: And is really sad reading about a messed-up story, the author of which claimed to be depressed-

LOU: Claiming depression being wildly uncommon on the internet, as we know.

NAR: -and then deleted the story?

LOU: People only delete stories because they're killing themselves and don't want to leave a mess behind. Do you know nothing, Narto?

Now onto the moral question, made of several smaller questions

NAR: I thought we were already on the moral question? The first, most serious one?

what if one day the fanfic of a very depressed writer was MST'd, PPC'd, etc? What if it was done without the writer's permission? What if the writer found out and had a very reasonable reaction? What if the people who the writer is angry at refuse to show any ounce of basic compassion and sympathy? And what if that, in the worst case scenario, drives the writer over the edge and the writer committed suicide?

LOU: That is a very long string of What Ifs. What's the 'reasonable reaction' the author had, exactly? And what are the PPCers showing no compassion or sympathy about?

NAR: I get the feeling the writer-

LOU: Yoda.

NAR: - Yoda things PPCers spit in the faces of anyone who questions their ways. Which, uh.

LOU: Yeah. 'Uh'.

And in TV tropes, in the MST article, it was mentioned there's a code of honor for doing MSTs that can be condensed to-

LOU: There is? Am I going to be taken to MST Court for not reading it before MSTing?

1.Don't make a MST just to spite another writer, especially just because one doesn't like them personally- I've seen this code of honor broken before, wouldn't be surprised if this is common.

LOU: Of course you wouldn't, you seem to think the worst of everyone.

NAR: Er... aren't we MSTing just to-?

LOU: No, we're doing it to analyse what's wrong with what Yoda said. But seriously, the PPC doesn't do this.

2. Ask for permission from the original writer, if they say no, don't do it. If they do not respond, you could still do it, but tread carefully - By the Mantle...Library of the Damned violates this big time. One member MST'd one of my old fanfics, long since deleted by myself, and I didn't know for years. They never asked for permission. That same person also PPC'd one of my fanfics without permission.

NAR: "I say, you there! The one writing the bad fanfiction! Might we be permitted to prevent it from destroying the fabric of reality?"

LOU: "Certainly not! The canon is my plaything, to toy with as I will; you shall have no recourse in your efforts to preserve it from decay."

NAR: "Righto! Just thought I'd ask."

This lead to a predictable case of “extreme rage and anger overrides sense of reason”. For the Naruto equivalent- the Eight Gates. Dragon Ball Z- Super Saiyan. And to be honest, MST'ers, PPC'ers, and others who do that with fanfics should expect anger and hate directed at them, they should be prepared for it.

NAR: We are prepared for it. Is... is this supposed to be a threat or something?

3. Always remember to credit the original writer, even with fanfiction- This code of honor seems to be followed quite well from what I have seen.

LOU: You mean 'blame'.

4. Don't hit below the belt with your humor.- This has been violated too, by Library of the Damned. It was one of my rage triggers when they did so to my fanfic. I was so angry almost all reason was tossed out the window. Though it seems they're trying to steer away from that, but the amount of success I wouldn't know.

NAR: I don't know precisely what he means, but I don't think we do this?

LOU: I'm more worried by the 'you wrote comments into my stuff, now your life is forfeit!' behaviour being condoned by Yoda here.

NAR: Doesn't anger lead to hate, and hate to suffering?

Another thing noticed was their apparent defensiveness. At Library of the Damned, I've noticed they'd get really defensive if they think they're being attacked or criticized in any way.

LOU: "How dare the people I attack try to defend themselves?!"

And seem to deflect any and all criticism, possibly moral questions as well. Considering I tried to twice send a comment that was moderated, and it never showed up.

NAR: Yes, that's... that's how moderation works, sometimes. I don't think 'twice' generalises to 'any and all'.

And MST'ing someone's fanfic or doing something similar like PPC can sadly cause them to give up.

LOU: That is sad. What should we do about it?

NAR: Yoda's going with 'tell them you think their story sucks so badly that you want to kill it, and ask if they'll let you'.

LOU: Unorthodox, I admit...

And its really no surprise if it is a mean spirited MST or PPC writing.

NAR: The PPC isn't mean-spirited.

LOU: Uh...

NAR: Correction: PPC writings aren't mean-spirited. Agents are mean-spirited towards each other all the time.

There's one possible case in Library of the Damned. It really appeared to be a young writer and apparently the people there refused to show any basic compassion, sympathy, or pity. This drove the writer to apparently give up. Couldn't locate the profile or story anymore. Felt so bad for the writer, since it could have been a writer who was just testing the waters and got that in response.

LOU: 'possible case', 'really appeared', 'apparently refused', 'apparently gave up', 'could have been'. Five 'I don't know's in as many sentences. That's impressive!

I also went into Library of the Damned as Neji7Hyuga.

NAR: "But some call me... Yoda."

I could never bring myself down

LOU: 'Up'.

NAR: Autocorrect gets weirder every day.

to their level, and eventually stopped altogether after seeing them for who they really were.

Thus a simple question presents itself- why do MST'ers and PPC'ers and the like see the need to hide what they do from people?

NAR: Uh, didn't you say it was because otherwise they'd all suicide en masse?

Why do they see the need to not tell the writers that they MST'd or PPC'd their fanfics? If they think it helps writers improve, would it be considered a good thing to tell the writers so they know what they are writing is bad? So they can improve?

LOU: Honestly, yes, it is good to give concrit, and back in the day PPCers often left helpful reviews on badfics. But in the case of old stories, or trollfics, there's little point, no?

As one Fanfiction.net writer has in their profile, something I really like- the phrase "if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything" doesn't mean "if you don't have anything to say that doesn't hurt a persons feelings, don't say anything at all",

NAR: To a lot of people, it does. 'If you don't like, don't read', remember?

it means "if you don't have anything polite to say, don't say anything at all". I agree so much, telling someone the honest truth is polite, tearing them down while doing so is not.

And if they throw a tantrum despite one being nice, maybe they simply aren't ready to be posting online. Understandable if they throw one due to someone being less than polite. Even more so for someone being completely rude.

LOU: Whoa, there! Yoda, you're saying something the PPC would never say - that young people who haven't yet learned how to cope with criticism should just get off the internet. That has absolutely never been the PPC's position.

NAR: So... does this mean Yoda is a worse person than us?

LOU: I don't know; that sounds like it might be 'hitting below the belt'.

MST'ing a published work is on more stable ground, since one has to pay money and if it sucks, then they have your money.

NAR: Does this mean we can't MST TV shows? What about library books?

LOU: Listen to logic, Yoda will not.

Unlike a bad fanfic, which one can just stop reading at no cost.

LOU: Except to the soul.

To use an example of a published work- if someone read Twilight and watched the movies, and hated them enough. And wanted to MST them, the Freedom of Speech allows them to do so.

NAR: Unsolicited Twilight-bashing. Yoda, you are truly the people's hero.

However, they can't go too far, can't hit below the belt or they could get sued for slander.

LOU: "It is not! I resent that. Slander is spoken. In print, it's libel."

NAR: ... is it over?

LOU: Apparently. It just... stops.

NAR: So... what was the point of it?

LOU: Um... 'politely tell people you want to kill their stories, so they'll commit suicide and stop bothering you'.

NAR: Was that below the belt?

LOU: Yoda doesn't wear a belt. Too short, he is.

LOU: AUGH!

Sorry, Lou. Yeah, I think they've covered it.

hS

Just for the sake of clarity by SpecstacularSC on 2016-08-22 15:36:00 UTC Reply

O hai Huin!

Considering I tried to twice send a comment that was moderated, and it never showed up.

NAR: Yes, that's... that's how moderation works, sometimes. I don't think 'twice' generalises to 'any and all'.

This would be because the comments he tried to post, in question, were riddled with so many links that he ended up setting off our spam filter, and his comments got moved to a folder where they were left to be reviewed by us. Upon seeing it was basically the same rant as was just riffed on (thanks for that, by the way. XD), we decided our site visitors didn't need to suffer that kind of idiocy and promptly deleted those comments.