Subject: /enthusiastic applause!
Author:
Posted on: 2018-06-26 18:51:00 UTC
Now that's some fine sleuthing going on in this thread... and some fine rhyming, as well. ;)
Subject: /enthusiastic applause!
Author:
Posted on: 2018-06-26 18:51:00 UTC
Now that's some fine sleuthing going on in this thread... and some fine rhyming, as well. ;)
No, there's not a live-action film you don't know about... I'm talking about the classic children's movie with the talking foxes and hissing snake. Oh yes.
Not too long ago, I realised that it was possible to pin Robin Hood down to a very specific point in time. The film ends with King Richard's return, but that's the thing - Richard the Lionheart only visited England twice: once when he was crowned in 1189, and once after being ransomed out of captivity in 1194. He may have also popped back over the Channel during his wars in France in late '94, but after that he never returned.
Since the setting of Robin Hood is very clearly one where Richard has been away for some time, we can pin the film rather precisely to spring 1194. Richard was freed from captivity in February, and we know he was back out to the wars before the year was out. This fits with the visuals, too - the trees of Sherwood are green, but there's no sign of summer fruits or autumn fall.
1194 was also the height of Prince John's power under Richard - because his brother was in prison! In fact, while the brothers' mother was working to collect enough gold to ransom her elder son, John actually offered his captors money to keep Richard in prison. It certainly explains why he didn't want to hear about him, doesn't it?
Now that we've got that settled, here's the thing that really puzzled me: Maid Marian. Normally, she is a noble lady who knew Robin in his childhood, but this film takes things a step further:
Klucky: Believe me, someday soon, your uncle, King Richard, will have an outlaw for an in-law.
Wait, what?! Marian is Richard's niece? That puts her in a tiny category of historical figures: she has to be either the child of one of Richard's siblings, or one of his wife's.
We can narrow that down further by eliminating Queen Berengaria's family entirely: the queen was from Navarre, down between Spain and France, and didn't even visit England until after Richard's death. Since we know Marian knew Robin when she was younger (and since she doesn't have a Spanish accent), we have to assume that she's of the Royal Family of England.
So who could she be? Henry II and Eleanor of Aquitaine had eight children in total, but the list can be whittled down very easily:
-William, Count of Poitiers, died age 3. She can't be his daughter.
-Henry the Young King died in 1183, childless, at age 28.
-Matilda, Duchess of Saxony, died in 1189, around the time of Richard's ascension. She had five children who survived to adulthood, but four of them were boys, and the fifth (another Matilda) was married off by Richard in 1189.
-Obviously she can't be Richard's daughter, not that he had any.
-Geoffrey, Duke of Brittany, died in 1186, but left behind three children. We'll come back to these.
-Eleanor, Queen of Castile, had a whole host of children... with her husband, the king of Castille. Most of them died young, and the daughters who didn't ended up married to Spanish and French kings.
-Joan, Queen of Sicily, had one daughter (also called Joan), but she wasn't actually born until 1198. No.
-John... well, she could be Bad Prince John's daughter, but I feel like that would probably have come up in the film? Maybe?
Okay, so let's go back to Geoffrey. As stated, he had three children, though one (another Matilda) died before 1189. The youngest child was a son, Arthur, Duke of Brittany, but the eldest was a daughter... Eleanor, Fair Maid of Brittany.
Eleanor is very nearly a perfect fit for Marian.
-Her father died when she was two, leaving her to be raised by her uncle Richard.
-John hated her. She actually had a better claim to the throne of England than he did; in fact on Richard's death she was legitimately second in line, after her 12 year old younger brother. John ended up imprisoning her in 1202 for the rest of her life, a further 39 years. (They left that bit out...!)
-She was out of the country for a time prior to Richard's return, but came back before he did. Specifically, she was sent to Austria to marry Duke Leopold's son, but turned back when the duke died. This would definitely fit with the plot of the film, which has Robin going on about how much she's grown.
-She never (historically) married, despite being described by Wikipedia as 'the most marriagable princess' due to her status. Richard tried to marry her off in 1195, and again in 1198, but it never worked - perhaps because of her secret former-outlaw husband?
-Her name literally has 'Maid' in it.
There are only two real problems with this theory, both of them easily solvable.
-Her name is wrong. Conveniently, in most versions of the Robin Hood tale, Marian spends some time in a convent - and in most convents, the nuns change their names. The most common new name, in fact, is some variant on Mary... say, for instance, Marian?
-Er... Eleanor was about 11 in 1194 (Wikipedia gives her birthdate as 1182-84). That makes Robin Hood super skeevy. And yet... she was being proffered for arranged marriages by 1190, and actually sent to formalise them by 1193. Clearly King Richard had no problem marrying her off at such a young age.
Which does leave the question: if she was such a valuable commodity, why would Richard marry Marian/Eleanor off to some minor outlaw nobleman? The answer, surely, is plain: Arthur of Brittany was a little boy, and Marian was the only other person who could stand in the way of John's claim to the throne. She was still a child... but Robin wasn't, and he had just proven that he could stand up to John. He may not have been the successor Richard wanted, but he was a darn sight better than the alternative.
(I now want to see a sequel about Prince Consort Robin's fight to secure his wife's throne against Bad King John... I can't be the only one, right? :D)
hS, oo-de-lally
[i]Robin Hood[/i] is one of my favorite Disney films. That intro music is something I can still whistle at mere mention of the movie.
I had never thought about the historical context. How accurately it all fits makes me think about how much more thoroughly people were educated in the past. There's no way it could have fit so neatly without someone involved knowing about the real people.
I would totally read that sequel.
I'm very tempted to write it myself. I wrote a little fanfiction for Disney's Robin Hood when I was a kid, but it never went very far, because I always thought the movie tied itself up very nicely and it didn't really invite addition. But this is the perfect opening for a really fascinating (and historically relevant) story! I have a lot of writing projects right now and I recently got a job so I might not have time, but in the event that I do, keep an eye out for the beginnings of Robin Hood fanfic by yours truly? If Huinesoron is okay with it, of course. After all, he was the one who did the research and picked it all apart.
I also love the fact that you picked this apart so thoroughly. It's a fascinating question: I knew from a young age that this version of Marian had a claim to the throne that potentially put her on John's radar as a rival, but I'd never stopped to think whether or not it fit with the historical facts.
And I'm really glad other people still think about this movie. It's definitely my favorite version of Robin Hood and probably my favorite Disney film and I think it's very underrated. (And I rather hope they don't remake it as a live-action flick. For one thing, it would really just be a somewhat more realistic animated movie, and I don't think it needs any updates or additions.)
Things aren't going so well here in the animal kingdom. Ever since King Richard - God bless him - passed on, bad ol' Prince John's been trying to hold onto the throne. He's already done for Prince Arthur, and had Princess Eleanor - that's Maid Marian to you, of course - locked up, and now he's on the hunt for our Robin Hood.
See, if there's one man that all the poor folks of England can get behind, it's Robin Hood. When they heard his wife had been jailed by the Prince, why, they just rushed to Sherwood Forest to help him out. And, you know what they say: when you've got that many people gathered together, they'll always have need of a minstrel...
Robin Hood and Little John
Gathering an army
Rallying the villagers and
Leading them away.
Off on a Crusade the way
King Richard did in olden times
Oo-de-lally, oo-de-lally
Golly, what a day.
Not for them the battles
in Jerusalem or Germany,
They're heading to a city nearby.
Where John and all his cronies,
With the Sheriff and their soldier boys
Are keeping Lady Marian inside...
Robin Hood and Little John
Marching with their army
Off to rescue Marian
Off to save the day
Concentratin' everythin' on
Plannin' for their victory
Oo-de-lally, oo-de-lally
Golly, what a day.
Oo-de-lally, oo-de-lally
Golly, what a day...
Now that's some fine sleuthing going on in this thread... and some fine rhyming, as well. ;)
(I have the office to myself for at least an hour this morning, whee!)
I like this theory, and I totally want to see that sequel.
As for under-aged-ness, if I'm not completely off-base, girls used to be considered women as soon as they got their menses (and could therefore start having babies), and 11 is a pretty common age for that to happen. While that seems terribly young to a modern eye, we're talking about a time when people lived to about 35 on average, IIRC. Being considered of age at about one-quarter to one-third of your expected life span isn't that outrageous.
Of course, as the average life span has increased, the age of maturity has been pushed back accordingly.
~Neshomeh
Didn’t the average life span result from many children dying young? Whoever had survived the first ten years could expect to live much longer than the average 30 years. Wikipedia tells me that Eleanor actually died at the age of 57 or 59, which apparently was not considered exceptionally old. I don’t know whether the false assumption that, due to the short average life span, girls must get pregnant as soon as they can to see their kids grow up was actually a thing historically.
HG
Ad the issue of Eleanor being eleven shouldn't be a problem. After all, Disney's Snow White was only fourteen when she ran off with her prince to get married!
*cough*
Oo-de-lally, oo-de-lally, golly what a day.
Historically speaking, I mean.
...
Does Disney just have a thing for underage princesses? I mean, thinking about it, Elsa waits a while after her parents' death to take the throne; if that means she wasn't yet of the age of majority, then Anna is still under it; I'd guess she's a good two years younger than her sister.
Good flippin' grief.
(PS: As second in line to the throne, Marian is also a rightful Disney Princess.)
hS