That last one.

Subject: That last one.
Author: Neshomeh
Posted on: 2018-06-04 05:15:00 UTC

I... don't hate it? I read it to the end. Let's see if I can figure out why.

Here are the problems with it:

1. Underage green rider. Why. I mean, it's explained why, and I infer he's about sixteen at the time of the story, so not exactly a child... but he would've been about fourteen when his dragon started rising. That's pretty hard to get around.

2. The "green riders always receive during mating flights" thing. Even if McCaffrey believed that, which wouldn't surprise me, it's not actually spelled out anywhere that I'm aware of.

2.5. Even if that were the case, the way that first sex scene is written shows everyone quite sufficiently in command of themselves to do things any way they choose. BS and more BS.

3. Yeah, all that "baby" and "sweetheart" stuff with someone you just met is yucky.

4. Kith is definitely a bit too wise and knowing.

5. The "after-flight congratulations" thing. Is... not a thing. And it weirds me out a lot. Mind your own business, people!

6. Some minor stuff, like the names all clearly being derived from modern Earth names (even if this is an early Pass, that's still off) and that the verb "breathe" should have an E on the end.

But there are things I appreciate, too.

1. The overall message seems to be "don't be inconsiderate brutes to green riders, they are people, too." This is good!

2. The things that are bad are treated as bad. The people responsible are called out on it.

3. I quite like all the care and consideration S'ven shows to J'son. Correct me if I'm missing something, but it seems to me that that's well done.

4. The writing, mechanically, is pretty good overall.

5. The author seems to have really thought about why things are the way they are, canonically and for the scenario they're writing, and are carrying out the consequences logically. The abuse isn't random, nor is it presented as a given: it's the result of a class of young riders being brought up too quickly in order to fill thinning ranks, without adequate instruction on Weyr ethics due to the deaths of two weyrlingmasters in a row. That, I think, is something that could happen. (See Dragonflight; you fail to properly educate the weyrlings, deliberately or otherwise, and bad things can happen.) This isn't treated as an excuse, but as a problem, and one that must be addressed even more urgently now that the Pass is over and there's no more fighting to keep the riders busy.

Let me just say I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, you don't have to like it if it rubs you the wrong way, but that's my take on it.

~Neshomeh

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Thoth's Thoughts: Pern by Thoth on 2018-06-03 01:00:00 UTC Reply

Disclaimer: This isn't a review. Or a formal anything. It IS what some of you may be accustomed to already, my standard long-form ramble. Don't have any expectations, and you won't be disappointed. I'll try to keep it mostly spoiler free, but beyond that... yeah.

So I've been reading Pern. A LOT of Pern. I've read 10 books, going on 11, and I've barely read anything else, save for going through Gates of Fire.

Pern's been on my reading list for a while, being generally highly regarded in sci-fi circles and extremely prominent in early online roleplaying (because fanfic was banned for so long, and hey, all that pent-up fandom energy had to go somewhere... and go it did). Props should go to Neshomeh for finally actually getting me to pick up the sodding thing. If you've been paying attention and didn't know all this already, this probably makes sense.

On to thoughts.

Pern has aged. Like, right off the bat. This isn't necessarily bad, but I don't think Pern would have been written today. If it was, it certainly wouldn't have the same renown or impact. It's soft SF, although it feels an awful lot like hard fantasy at times. It feels like it's out of the 1960s (which it is), from the silvery spacecraft in later novels to the clear influence from the Sexual Revolution and Feminism of that time that pervades the series (but I'm not going to go into detail about either sexism or feminism in Pern, partly because I'm not especially qualified, but mainly because we'll be here all day: suffice to say, Pern aged somewhat badly in a few respects and Anne McCaffrey had some weird views in others, but it didn't age nearly as bad as some other novels from the same era. If you've read Pern, you know what I mean). But it's not just that. Pern has a perpetual air of optimism about it that was still common at the time in SF. If I had to pick an in-any-way recent song to epitomize it, the song would be this one. And there's just... a feel of datedness in about the whole thing. "Rescue Run" from Chronicles of Pern: The First Fall feels like it's right out Star Trek, for crying out loud.

However, it's mostly aged pretty well. Aside a few... well, questionable aspects. Really questionable aspects. But I'm focusing on the positive, dangit. The McCaffrey-is-bad-at-romance discussion, and the greenriders-oh-god-what-were-you-thinking rant can both happen later. Besides, this began in the 60s: it could have been so much worse.

Bored now, onto other subjects! Let's take it book by book, at least until I get bored.

Dragonflight

Dragonflight... isn't a novel. It's a collection of short stories pretending to a novel (they might have been revised a bit for the "novel", but... well, not enough). And... jeez. Did "Weyr Search" really win an award when it was published? It's... kinda not all that great. Full of clunky phrasing, and writing that... isn't that great. I mean, the concept's strong, but.. Well, it won a Hugo, so what do I know? This also marks Pern's long association with Analog Science Fiction and Fact, which would publish a number of Pern's short stories over the years. Indeed John W. Campbell (Noted science fiction author and editor, as well as noted racist and awful person) had a strong influence on the series, making several crucial suggestions to McCaffrey. Namely... well, uh... how not to spoil it... The Thing That Lessa Works Out And Then Does. That was his suggestion, at least in part.

Anyways, the book's composition as a group of short stories is readily noticeable in a number of respects. For one, the writing jumps in quality at each section break. By the end, I'd actually say it's pretty good. Although the last part is also the most engaging, so that might be part of it... Still, this is probably the worst Pern novel, by far: our protagonists and major characters feel a bit off (F'lar and Lessa are both far less likeable here than they are in later novels, "Dragonrider" in particular showing F'lar being not just unlikeable but a highly questionable level of stupid—and his plan almost goes up in smoke because of it). The book also has a few major elements that just outright don't appear in future books, or are significantly changed: Lytol's dragon, for one, but far more major is the greater emphasis on telepathy and psychic ability. Never again, to my recollection, is a character shown to be able to directly manipulate another's thoughts in canon. Although I may be wrong.

Dragonquest

Holy hell. Just going over all the stuff that happened in this book... phew. It's HUGE. This is book where Pern really came into its own in a number of respects. Our characters feel better developed and more solid, the writing's a lot more consistent and solid, the romance that is here feels less forced and creepy (although creepy romance is kinda just... part of the thing. McCaffrey doesn't do good romance, IMHO). It also set expectations going forward, telling us that no, Pern wasn't going to stay still, that change would be an omnipresent part of the setting.

Not a whole not else to say, really. Not unless I want to talk about Greenriders, and... I don't. I'm too tired for that. Besides, we to the really salient point next. Which is...

The Harper Hall Trilogy

Okay, there's something I need to get off my chest.

All three Harper Hall novels are excellent. You should go read them. Sadly, you have to read Dragonflight and Dragonquest first, but don't let that dissuade you. It's great.

If Dragonquest cemented the skeleton of Pern, then it's Harper Hall that gave Pern its soul. Firstly, they were really the first Pern novels to look at Pern from the perspective of someone other than a dragonrider. They fleshed out the world a heck of a lot as a result. But they also gave us a glimpse at the Harpers, and just...

Okay. there are some feelings that are hard to fake. One is enthusiasm. It's really hard to pretend to be excited about something when you're not. By contrast, if you love something, that love and enthusiasm tends to show in your work.

And in Harper Hall, it is incredibly clear that McCaffrey loves music just as much as the characters. Moreso in Dragonsong and Dragonsinger than Dragondrums, which is a bit of a different beast, but still. Not to mention all the memorable characters. Dragonflight and Dragonquest were good. But it seems like these are the books McCaffrey wanted to write. Maybe that's why Masterharper Robinton is so universally loved, and Harpers so important.

Yeah, the dragons are what people remember, but Pern's got music in its soul. These books are magical.

And I think that's all the time we have for today. I had to sit two hours of standardized testing and I'm still burnt out. Maybe later I'll go over more Pern novels, more characters, and more stuff. If I feel like it. Meanwhile, you should all share your opinions and stuff about Pern (at least, those of you who have read it), your opinions on my opinions, questions, thoughts on sci-fi...

It's not important how you respond. But it is important that you do.

Dragonseye - or, Thoth will take any excuse to rant. by Thoth on 2018-06-08 13:38:00 UTC Reply
DISCLAIMER: As I write this, I am disorganized and tired. And sick. So this is opinion, and it might not be totally coherent.

Dragonseye is pretty good. It's full of fun stuff. Like trials for heinous crimes. And songs. And rocks. And a telekinetic bear, a dentist who harvests brains- wait, no, that's something else.

But really, it's got an engaging plot, likeable good guys, hateable bad guys, a decent pace, only a little creepy romance, cool paintings... y'know. Everything that makes a novel good.

Unfortunately for you all, a minor plot element overshadows all of that. For you see, Dragonseye is the first Pern novel to devote a meaningful amount of time to portraying a homosexual relationship (Between bluerider P'tero and greenrider M'leng). And I will take any excuse to discuss homosexual relationships in fiction. So here's a discussion of that thing.

Now, traditionally, Anne McCaffrey writes romance... badly. Not always awfully, but often badly. Strangely, it seems to be better here. Maybe that's because this is one of those relationships where she decided not to be creepy (there's other creepy romance to make up for it in this book). Maybe because the relationship is between two men (and as a side note... for how readily accepting Pern is of gay men being a thing, there sure aren't any lesbians. What's with that?) and as a result McCaffrey couldn't put in creepy gender role stereotypes (not that this has ever stopped other authors...). Maybe it's because despite my objections to the way she writes romance, she is genuinely competent, I read a lot of badfic, and the standards for homosexual romance, in my book, are just that low.

Regardless of the reason, it stands to note: Fic authors, numerous professional writers, and other people of that sort just got slaughtered in terms of romance by Anne freaking McCaffrey, in a book released in 1997. Not just romance, gay romance.

So, let's look at some common pitfalls in writing romance (some specific to homosexual romance, most... not so much), and maybe a bit about how Dragonseye avoids them, if I feel like it. Well... how Dragonseye avoids them here anyways. But that's a discussion for another time.

Make no mistake, this is self-indulgent nonsense. But maybe you'll derive some enjoyment from it.
1. Representation! Yaaay!: In a lot of professional works, there's been an urge of late to add representation for minority groups. This includes the LGBTQ people. And you know what? That's great. Talking more about people who aren't talked about is good. It can lead to interesting stories, and it can send powerful messages of acceptance. However, for the love of god, never write a character that blatantly exists solely for the purpose of representation. Firstly, you will get complaints from someone (and we'll get to why in a moment), but secondly... it just results in bland, boring, bad characters. If all we can remember about your character is that they're "the gay one", then that isn't a well conceived character. Nobody's gonna say, "Hmm... of all the interesting characters in this work, my favorite is the gay one I can't remember much about!" Speaking of which...
2. Being gay is not a personality trait: So. You've got a gay character. Actually, presumably you've got two. So how are you going to characterize them? A lot of people think this is more or less complicated than it really is. In order to do it properly, you have to make an actual character. You know, just like you normally do. Consider how them being gay effects their experience (depending on your setting and their personality, the answer might even be "not very much." If you're writing in a modern or semi-modern setting, however, it will probably have some impact and may be hanging over them like the Doom of Damocles, depending), sure, but as it turns out, gay people come in all shapes and sizes. All of them. Really.
  
  Also, this is just my thing, but... personally, please, don't give your gay character some kind of "stereotypical gay" personality, or at least have a good reason for doing so. This is partly because I feel like it proliferates the idea that gay people are fundamentally alike and that there is a "gay" personality... but mostly because I find all of these stereotypes to be incredibly annoying characters. But hey. If you've got
  
  Dragonseye deals with this part very very well. This might be a consequence of Anne McCaffrey's... fun... ideas about gender and sexuality (all greenriders are gay or female, no exceptions): On Pern, being gay just isn't special, so characters can't use it as a differentiator. And while McCaffrey isn't the greatest writer in the world, she can at least write reasonably distinct and memorable characters. And while the characters aren't the focus, and we don't see a lot of them, they do at least have defined personalities, which counts for a lot.
3. On Romance: A lot of people seem uncertain about how to write gay romance. I dunno why. It's a lot like straight romance, seemingly (although maybe don't ask the man who's never dated anyone ever...). So... yeah. There are dates. And affection. And people liking one another. Sometimes people argue. Y'know. normal relationship stuff. Except that the people involved are both men. Or women, because this applies to lesbians as well, I assume.
  
  So here's the cardinal rule: thou shalt not compromise a character's personality for romance. Seriously. Even i a character is dating, they are still that character. They should still be IC. No radical personality shifts, woobifying, or so on (unless there's story/character justification, obviously). They date the way they'd date a person. That means that the dynamic might be a bit different between two guys than between a guy and girl (or maybe not), but not so different as you might think. But speaking of radical personality shifts...
4. Relationship dynamics Oh jeez. I could devote an awful lot of time to this one.
  
  Okay, so I want you to help me conduct a simple experiment. Draw a pie chart. Fill in the percentage of time a couple spends doing things in bed. Now fill in he percentage of time a couple spends doing things not in bed. As you may notice, the second percentage is vastly higher than the first. Now, when one takes up so much more time than the other, kindly endeavor to justify why the one that takes up less time is the part that defines all aspects of how the couple interacts and relates to one another. Spoiler alert: you can't, because that's BS.
  
  Yes, it's the old "who wears the pants" nonsense. And it truly is nonsense. What happens in the bedroom does not define a relationship, much less the sum total of everything about a human being. Oddly, the perception that it does seems to have largely vanished when discussing straight people. Because if you start writing it, most people's kneejerk reaction is "that's sexist and utterly insane". Which it is!
  
  Real relationships are built on a variety of things. Good ones are probably built on trust and mutual respect. I've never been in one: who am I to talk? But what I do know is that most of it doesn't happen in the bedroom.

Well... blep. by Thoth on 2018-06-08 18:27:00 UTC Reply

I didn't intend to post this. It was only half done. There were more points I wanted to make. And it was extremely incoherent.

Ah well. Enjoy my awful rambles.

Heck yes, Harper Hall! by Iximaz on 2018-06-03 02:30:00 UTC Reply

Menolly really spoke to me as a kid, moreso than Lessa or Jaxom or any of the dragonriders. She was musical (like me!) didn't get along with her parents (like me!) and had an injury that made it hard for her to do the things she loved (like... okay, you get the point). The characters in the Harper Hall trilogy just felt the most alive to me, and I read and re-read those books so often that my mom's poor, ancient copies are now held together with tape on the spines.

...But let's be totally honest, if I had the option, I'd want to be a dragonrider.

(If you really liked Harper Hall, though, I suggest you check out Robinton's focus book, called—what else?—The Masterharper of Pern. It delves into more of his backstory as a young man training to be a harper and the journey that led him to becoming Masterharper.)

Absolutely by Thoth on 2018-06-03 02:46:00 UTC Reply

Yeah, that's what I mean. Every single character in Harper Hall is vivid, moreso than just about anything else in Pern.

And part of why the Harper Hall trilogy is so beloved is because I think at least a part of it does speak to everyone. The musicality of it spoke to me, the protagonist spoke to you... yeah.

That's probably also why people like The White Dragon so much. It's probably the closest Pern's ever gotten to doing a coming-of-age story, and that's extremely universal.

Ooh! Pern Thoughts on the Board! by Neshomeh on 2018-06-03 02:16:00 UTC Reply

I don't have too much to add right now, because I'm coming off a week of having company in which, due to already having taken a week off work this month, I didn't even get to do any of the fun stuff, and I'm drained. Plus, if I get talking about Pern, I will not stop, so this is probably for the best. ^^

For those who don't know, Pern is in my Top 5 Fandoms, and might even come out at #1 in terms of how involved I was, having run a Pern RP on Neopets for a few years. My knowledge, while not quite encyclopedic, is extensive when it comes to in-universe stuff. I am also practiced at explaining and working around (but not excusing) the problematic crap so all the good stuff can still be enjoyed. And there's a lot of good stuff! The world-building is absolutely phenomenal, and like Thoth says, there's music in its soul. <3

And Masterharper Robinton is my idol, maybe my favorite fictional character of all time. I don't wanna be him, and I don't lust after him, but I would very much like to sit at his feet and listen to him for an hour or five, please.

I'd be sporking in Pern, but it's pretty hard to find sporkable badfic. Pern fanfic wasn't allowed for many years, and I guess most of the fandom is aged past the peak badfic phase? I dunno. If anyone does happen across any real quality Sueage, do send it my way. I have agents to torment. ^^

~Neshomeh

Pern Fic by Thoth on 2018-06-04 01:25:00 UTC Reply

I've been spelunking though AO3. Haven't really found mission fuel yet... but here are a few notes:

-There's a lot of Menolly/Robinton. Not an Offense, but... well. Squick.

-There is a F'lar/F'nor fic. Called it. Blech.

-I found a fic (Slight NSFW, Dragonquest spoilers) of F'nor apologizing to Brekke for what he did. People who have read Dragonquest, you... probably know what I mean.

It's about two paragraphs, but it's pretty good, as fixfic goes.

-Sheesh, why is there so much crossover?

-Ooooh. Thaaaat's why. It's so that people can use mating flights as an excuse to get their favorite characters shipped. I am... not happy. Then again, some of them are honest crossovers, so that's fine.

-As such, people with knowledge of canon for Voltron, MCU, and various other continua should look at some of these and see if they're any good. Assuming, of course, that any of those people have an interest.

-this Harry Potter x-over is pretty bad. Not sure it can really be missioned, but it's bad.

-There's a lot of stuff that slightly breaks canonical dragon role stuff. Like female bronze riders. /shrug. I'm not going to complain.

-No Sues yet. The closest I've found is this fic, which has romance and "canon characters came to earth" and such, but I don't think our character is a Sue. So... nope.

-I think I hate this fic (NSFW). It's... not particularly bad, as fics go? I just hate it. Because greenriders. And violating canon a number of ways to create H/C. And bringing in sexual abuse to create H/C, abuse that feels kind of... unlikely in canon? (because apparently the Weyrleaders are aware and just... do nothing?). And... wow, those are not things you call someone you just met, mating flight or no. And I think that dragon might be borderline speshul.

I hate canonical violation to force a type of relationship. I especially hate slash I consider badly written. Because I feel that all too often authors writing M/M [EXCESSIVELY LONG RANT WITH SEVERAL DIGRESSIONS ELIDED] and that's why it's important that arrays are indexed from 0, not 1.

...Given, there's probably an interesting oneshot trapped inside this mess, struggling to get out, but it would be closer to what Nesh posted for the racing prompt then this fic.

That last one. by Neshomeh on 2018-06-04 05:15:00 UTC Reply

I... don't hate it? I read it to the end. Let's see if I can figure out why.

Here are the problems with it:

1. Underage green rider. Why. I mean, it's explained why, and I infer he's about sixteen at the time of the story, so not exactly a child... but he would've been about fourteen when his dragon started rising. That's pretty hard to get around.

2. The "green riders always receive during mating flights" thing. Even if McCaffrey believed that, which wouldn't surprise me, it's not actually spelled out anywhere that I'm aware of.

2.5. Even if that were the case, the way that first sex scene is written shows everyone quite sufficiently in command of themselves to do things any way they choose. BS and more BS.

3. Yeah, all that "baby" and "sweetheart" stuff with someone you just met is yucky.

4. Kith is definitely a bit too wise and knowing.

5. The "after-flight congratulations" thing. Is... not a thing. And it weirds me out a lot. Mind your own business, people!

6. Some minor stuff, like the names all clearly being derived from modern Earth names (even if this is an early Pass, that's still off) and that the verb "breathe" should have an E on the end.

But there are things I appreciate, too.

1. The overall message seems to be "don't be inconsiderate brutes to green riders, they are people, too." This is good!

2. The things that are bad are treated as bad. The people responsible are called out on it.

3. I quite like all the care and consideration S'ven shows to J'son. Correct me if I'm missing something, but it seems to me that that's well done.

4. The writing, mechanically, is pretty good overall.

5. The author seems to have really thought about why things are the way they are, canonically and for the scenario they're writing, and are carrying out the consequences logically. The abuse isn't random, nor is it presented as a given: it's the result of a class of young riders being brought up too quickly in order to fill thinning ranks, without adequate instruction on Weyr ethics due to the deaths of two weyrlingmasters in a row. That, I think, is something that could happen. (See Dragonflight; you fail to properly educate the weyrlings, deliberately or otherwise, and bad things can happen.) This isn't treated as an excuse, but as a problem, and one that must be addressed even more urgently now that the Pass is over and there's no more fighting to keep the riders busy.

Let me just say I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, you don't have to like it if it rubs you the wrong way, but that's my take on it.

~Neshomeh

To each their own by Thoth on 2018-06-04 12:08:00 UTC Reply

See, I totally agree with what you said. I just hate this fic. Probably because the bad things it does are all things that really bug me, and that makes it hard to enjoy the good stuff.

Robinton by Thoth on 2018-06-03 02:52:00 UTC Reply

Robinton is... good god. Robinton is awesome. I think he's one of everyone's favorite characters. I love him to bits, and I've never be a harper.

No, I'd be a Smith. Fandarel is basically a medieval hacker, right down to the attitude. For those of you who've never seen hackers, that is genuinely what they're like, complete with an efficiency obsession.