I was telling an outside friend of mine about this situation, and she shared with me the story of the butterfly's struggle, which I thought was very uplifting. I realize it may not be the right message for everyone at all times, but as we individually and collectively struggle with our various challenges, I hope it's because we're empowering our wings to fly.

There are several versions of the butterfly story out there; this is a link to the one at the top of my Google hits:

http://instructor.mstc.edu/instructor/swallerm/Struggle%20-%20Butterfly.htm

~Neshomeh

I realize this issue is rather moot now, but I still feel this should be added.

Yesterday, I had it pointed out to me that as a result of some circumstances that have/are hurt(ing) him, Sprinkles has been infected with (this is the best verb I can think of here) certain persistent patterns of behavior and conversation style that, in the aggregate, would (in the judgement of the person explaining this) almost surely cause something like this incident to reoccur if Sprinkles came into contact with other vulnerable people similar to X (the victim currently at issue). That is, there is very good reason to believe this issue would not be an isolated incident.

It was further pointed out to me that this was something that would be quite resolvable with some help, but that because of some circumstances Sprinkles is in, he wouldn't be in a position to receive such help at or near this time. This concern for X and other people that would be drawn into similar situations make the person I was talking to uncomfortable with having Sprinkles in the PPC Discord.

I'd like to reiterate that this doesn't make Sprinkles a bad person or anything like that. I hope Sprinkles can get away from the circumstances that are causing and prolonging this issue and get help and healing.

I have somewhat lower estimates of the probability of recurrence than the person who explained this to me did. However, I know basically nothing about this type of issue. In light of this information, I find myself rather unsure that my proposed solution would have actually solved anything. I am also, however, not entirely convinced that making Sprinkles leave under these circumstances would have been a precedent we would want to set.

I just don't know what we should have done anymore. I thought I had a good idea. It turns out that may not have been the case. So, even though we are not deciding on anything anymore, I (entirely symbolically) abstain.

- Tomash

Whether or not this continues, which I sincerely hope it doesn't, I am backing out of it. All of it. Having been involved with both concerned parties for a notable length of time, I am personally shattered that it ever came to this. I think I'm still in denial of what's happening; what I saw during the previous months is so starkly different from what's gone on the past few days, I can scarcely believe this is real. For that matter, I am deeply sorry. I'm sorry that this happened in the first place and I'm sorry for any and all pain I caused during this argument. If I've wronged you in any way, I acknowledge it and I apologize with all the sincerity I can muster. I feel as though I have lost my family over the course of this discussion and nothing about what seems to be the final assessment sits well with me, but it's apparently not my place to say. I'm not in possession of the full facts and I'm honestly not qualified to be here, making judgements. I am sorry for my hurtful words, I am sorry for overstepping my bounds, and I am sorry that I can't agree with most/many of you. I hope that in time, we can all recover from this, and that someday I'll be able to wash the bitter taste from the back of my throat. But for the time being, I need both time and space, so this is my goodbye.

This is doing more harm than good. A lot of hurtful things have been said here, and it's putting everyone through hell.

I'm not trying to gain sympathy points by saying this- Y'all can believe what you want about me, but I don't want more people to get hurt. I just want this fighting to stop. And, if it means I'm not allowed back into the PPC, then that's fine by me.

I make my apologies, and I'll keep my distance.

Goodbye, it was awesome meeting you guys.

Okay, now that I've read everything people have posted, I have to say I don't support the idea of Sprinkles coming back into the chat at this time for a few reasons which I'll lay out. Let me say something that's been said many times before by other people, but bears mentioning again: Sprinkles, I hope you get the support and help you need. I don't think you're a bad person; I just think the best thing for everyone would be to take a break for a while.

Now, as to why.

As I see it, Sprinkles has been abusing at least one person for an extended period of time, and that person reached out to others for help before deciding to block Sprinkles. I don't think Tomash's proposal is realistic precisely *because* it's ideal. People are not ideal. People make mistakes. I think it's likely that some kind of accidental interaction between Sprinkles and Person X will happen, and that that interaction could be harmful to at least one of them, to say nothing of the rest of the community as a whole if it happens outside PMs. Tomash has a good proposal, I just think it's not likely to be followed even if everyone has the very best of intentions (and I'm not saying anyone doesn't).

Now, I haven't been in contact with Sprinkles. I don't know his exact situation or what steps he's taking in real life. I don't know who Person X is, so I can't speak for them. Maybe other people know more and haven't said anything yet that could change my mind, and if that's the case (and people are comfortable sharing), I'd appreciate hearing it. Unless and until that happens, though? The safest option for both Sprinkles and Person X is for Sprinkles to cut contact through the PPC Discord.

What happens in PMs between Sprinkles and other people in the PPC is outside what I'm willing to talk about. I'm only suggesting he be asked politely but firmly to stay off the PPC Discord server for at least a few months... and most importantly, we should defer to Person X as for when (or even if) to let Sprinkles back in.

When I wrote the above post, I only knew Sprinkle's side of the story. I was not aware of the extent of the abuse, to the point where the interactions between Sprinkle and the victim that I was aware of did not even register as abuse to me, or the extent of the distress it caused them. Had I known about it, I would have featured it in the post; however I fully understand the victim's decision not to share it with me. I did attempt to contact the victim; both to try and set up a discussion between them and Sprinkle, and to find out their side of the story. They refused, a decision that I do not blame them for in the slightest. At that time however, I attempted to get their story even after they told me to drop the subject. I have already apologized to them in private, but that happened before I brought the discussion to the Board. Due to what I learned from this discussion, I think a second apology is in order. I am sorry for not respecting the victim's wish not to discuss the matter. I fully understand their decision not to, and should not have pressed the topic.

As to what happened, I do share the opinion that Sprinkle did not intentionally inflict abuse on the victim. I also think that shutting of Sprinkle was a good decision, or at least better than keeping up the abusive relationship. Was it the best option there was? I have honestly no idea. I think things might have turned out better in the aftermath if they had maybe asked someone they trusted to explain the situation to Sprinkle. However, I do not blame them for not doing so, and I am not sure if I would have done it if I had been in their situation.

Maxe's idea of a moderated discussion sounds like a good idea in theory, but, as they admit themselves, it is not practical in this case, and trying force both parties into it would be a horrible idea.

I support Sprinkle being allowed back, however I also think Tomash's proposal, possibly with a few tweaks and clarifications, is a good idea, but I'd be interested in hearing the victim's thoughts on it if they are willing to voice them, either themselves or through Delta.

One final note to everyone: There is something important to learn from this situation for everyone who offers emotional support to others. First, what you're doing is admirable. But you must never forget to take care of yourselves. Back in EMT training, we learned a principle that roughly translates to "Make sure you are safe before attempting to save others." It was mostly meant as a warning to look out for possible dangers and not to take unnecessarily risky actions. I don't want to say"Don't help others if you have mental health Issues yourself", in a lot of cases having experience with mental illnesses can be very helpful. I want to say that your own wellbeing is important as well. (Again, this is *not* intended as an attack on the victim, but as an important warning to others).

~Ak

This is a multifaceted issue and I don't know if I can really lay all my support onto a single person here.

Not all the parties involved are talking about this. And it is more people like Nesh who weren't present in this should be speaking up, because though this (the lashout from Sprinkles in the main discord) was somewhat of an isolated event, the more people who can talk about it, the more fleshed out and more understood a situation will be.

I do support that this was a mental issue, being that there was a trigger involved! In the moments directly before the lashout Sprinkles was talking about how his biological brother was harassing and threatening him. This is something that can cause trauma, if it happens often.

I'm also assuming that all the other times where he lashed out to his victim that it was also caused by something.

But even if it was caused by something else does it excuse him lashing out to the chat? I mean, given that he had no control over his emotional and mental state I'd say that it does, but there's always the option of not even looking at the chat at all and not communicating. I was a large part in the discussion and I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that Sprinkles was going on a downswing and from the way he was talking it sounded very similar to the times in which I myself felt like killing myself, and I tried to draw away from that as much as possible. I suppose if I hadn't been there and kept disagreeing with him and attempting to get him to see the brightness of life and the good that the lashout would have been much shorter. Was it wrong of me in that case to step in? Maybe so, maybe not. I don't know how things would have turned out if I hadn't.

But, this was not the only lashout, and this is why I am having trouble forming a solid opinion. There was a singular person, who tried to handle it all. Who took much more of what Sprinkles said and was not equipped to handle it. I don't believe Sprinkles understood what he was doing to the person. I think that based on the reactions that he's mentioned that he was under the impression that things were going ok, because they were helping him, and he was unaware that he had inadvertently become abusive towards them. The person directly contacted me and asked me to help them out with the downswings. I tried to give as best moral support as I could. They asked me to talk to Sprinkles about this so they wouldn't have to deal with it all by themselves. But I took a stance that if I actually tried to talk to Sprinkles about it that it would destroy his trust in both of ours, something that I didn't want to be lost, because I believed that the damage of me directly talking to him about what he was saying would cause him to turn away from the entire community. In hindsight, I would have taken more responsibility and metaphorically tried to take Sprinkles off them. But everything is clearer in hindsight, and I can't change those events now.

I want Sprinkles and the person to work it out, in a moderated discussion. I don't see that happening any time soon.

I'm still not entirely sure where I stand on this. I'm for Sprinkles staying in the PPC. I'm for the victim speaking about this, whether directly or relayed through Delta (speaking of, Delta, you're incredibly kind and thoughtful for doing so).

I do want to throw in my general support for Delta Juliette, Matt Cipher, hS, and basically everyone begging us all to remember the anonymous person and take them seriously. The lone voice daring to speak out against abuse must not be dismissed simply because they are in the minority and the person who has hurt them is otherwise well-respected. As the world at large is coming to realize, that is wrong and cannot continue. Being in the minority and in a position of less power does not make them incorrect.

That said, I get that this is not a simple, clear-cut situation, and I am proud of everyone for not being so blindly committed to one person or the other that they can't see both sides. This is hard, and I think you're all doing an admirable job of navigating through it. I know you'll make the best decision you can.

~Neshomeh

It's probably unwise to type this literally minutes before work... Then again, people who are in a rush tend to write what's on their mind, without taking time to sound more neutral or PC. So here goes:

Sprinkles is not a bad guy. That has to be established first. He's a bloke with problems, just like many of us. I have no details about his life situation, but suffice to say it's not easy. He deals with his problems, and I believe that being among the PPC people kinda helped him in that matter. It's no longer a question of whether or not he should be invited back to the Discord, because he was never kicked off of it.

Now, for the bigger issue. Is Sprinkles an abuser? Yes. Yes, he is. HOWEVER, this is not a type of abuse that he chooses to inflict. He does not pick up his victims and pretends to be this poor, unfortunate, soul only to take pleasure in their suffering. He does not do this consciously. If we take into consideration what he claims being "another personality taking over", maybe it's a type of schizophrenia? I have no idea, and I don't know if Sprinkles had done anything to treat it. Nonetheless, it IS an abuse, and nothing that his victims do is their fault.

Once again, I will give you an compilation of what happened that time at Discord. This is but a few of the messages displayed in public. Please look at some of the words. "I'll hurt you". "I'll make you hate me". "Stop lying". Now, who can honestly say that they would be okay with getting things like this? Do you truly believe Sprinkles's victim was FINE with getting borderline THREATS for over a month? And then, after they've finally decided this has to stop, and chose the safest possible way of finishing it, you guys dare saying "Oh, they should've just tell Sprinkles and not make a big fuss about it." NO. Hell to the n, to the o! Why? Because Sprinkles clearly had no control over his abusive self. Telling him to stop wouldn't do anything, because it's not this side of him performing the abuse.

And yes, I said "safest" possible way out was going completely cold. Why? Well, imagine this - you suffer an abuse, from a person you care about and do their absolute best to keep sane. You bottle up all your emotion, so they finally burst like a Mentos+Cola combination. What good would saying "Yeah, he abused me emotionally" do? It would only create a situation of "How dare you accusing him!", "Booo! Attention beggar!", "He has problems! It's your job to help him!". It would definitely turn into a victim blaming scenario. One we don't need here anymore.

Final thoughts? I have no problems with Sprinkles coming to Discord. It seems like he has now a few more people to talk to, maybe this will help him. But he has to respect his victim's wish and now interact with them, until they decide it's okay. Because this was a strained relationship for both of them. They need a break from one another.

So, per downthread:

- Sprinkles has made a person/multiple people uncomfortable by behaving abusively in PMs.

- There is a person, let's call them X, that Sprinkles has been acting abusively towards in PMs for months.

- Because of said behavior, X has, for a good while, been uncomfortable with/afraid to/unwilling to/... with:
a) Sprinkles's behavior
b) Telling Sprinkles to stop
c) Reporting this

- It is unclear whether or not Sprinkles was aware of the impact his behavior was having before the block/this thread.

- Recently (after Sprinkles's rant), X blocked Sprinkles.

- After said block, Sprinkles has been attempting to (directly and/or indirectly) apologize and resume contact with X, in a manner that constitutes harassment.

- X continues to be unwilling to publicize their identity or speak up for themselves, and Delta has been advocating for them.

My thoughts:

It is unclear whether or not Sprinkles's behavior before the block is something we can/should do anything to address in an Official Community Action way. It was, to be clear, a bad thing, though.

However, recent events are (again, if past events were also this, we should be informed, as that changes a lot of things) something that is much less ambiguous: a harassment issue. X does not want to hear from Sprinkles, either ever again or for a good long while, and Sprinkles has been very much not respecting that (or at least, that's been implied downthread). For example, by bugging multiple people to try and get his apologies passed on to X.

This behavior is unambiguously (aka there is not a "Oh I had no idea I was being harassing." defense to this part) Not OK.

The question then arises: what do we do about it?

I have a proposal. I don't know if this is a feasible proposal, and I don't know if it'll work for X.

- Before readmission to chat, Sprinkles needs to stop harassing X (and any other relevant people) and fully apologize for doing so

- Sprinkles needs to respect the spirit of the block once he's back in chat. That is, he should act as if X doesn't exist. No mentioning them, no alluding to them, etc etc. (It'd probably be fine for them to both talk about something, but they should not talk to each other.

- A corollary to this is that X should also avoid interacting with Sprinkles. However, the burden of avoiding interaction is on Sprinkles, not X. It's Sprinkles's job to stay away from X, not the other way around.

- Voip makes this type of restriction complicated, especially since the situation as it stands would have X being unable to join voip if Sprinkles happens to be there. Thoughts?

- Violation of the spirit of the block, is, at the determination of the mods, a kick and some (not permanent the first time around, probably) ban from chat.
- Continued harassment is a nice enforced vacation from the PPC. That's how we've dealt with this before.

Again, I don't know if this is going to help any, because I really don't know much about how abusive situations work or what should be done in response.

I would appreciate comments and feedback on this attempted compromise resolution.

- Tomash

Although I admit my perspective is limited, I would be willing to let him back into the Discord channel.

Firstly, the purely technical. He was not, at any point, actually kicked. He left of his own accord, and in this particular case, I don't feel the situation warrants a ban. While my memory is horribly faulty, I don't recall anything like a warning before the incident that would create reason for what would amount to a ban.

Secondly, since the event, he has been nothing but apologetic, to myself and to others. Given the mental circumstances around the incident, and things I've been told since then, I believe that a repeated occurrence would be unlikely. Therefore, I'd be willing to have him back.

But I do think that he seriously needs to get help with his issues, assuming he hasn't already. (He probably has, but... I don't know. Sprinkles?)

I am writing this from my phone, so please excuse the brevity and inevitable typos- I will spend more time once I have my full keyboard again.

If it was just the New Year's Eve meltdown? I'd be right there with you. He posted in the middle of a meltdown, didn't even attack anyone in particular, and has apologized to at least Akrinor. I'd be cool with a "don't do that again," and probably some talk via pms on how to recognize when he shouldn't be posting.

But.

I've heard from a member of the community who offered to help Sprinkles that he has been throwing significant amounts of abuse at them in PM for multiple months, to the point that they've suffered a lot of distress. I've also heard corroboration from other people- I really trust what I've heard about Sprinkles's behavior.

I'm sorry I'm being vague- some of the people I am talking to are not comfortable being named in this conversation, and I'm trying to respect that. I'm also not sure how much their identities matter- Sprinkles has been taking out his issues on people in painful ways, and I'm not comfortable with that in my community.

At this point, I'd like to ((say something here that I've rightly been called out for. Removed it.))

To add to that- I do not intend to block him from contacting me. But, that does not mean I am comfortable having him in a space where he has already made people uncomfortable speaking up about how he is hurting them.

Sprinkles has been an amazing friend to me ever since I've known him. He's an amazing guy, both highly supportive and fun to talk to in general. He's expressed to me so many times how deeply sorry he is about his outburst, and I have absolutely no reason to believe that he had control over it in any regard. I also think it's highly unlikely for a meltdown on the gen chat to happen again. I honestly think it's unfair to shut him out for something that essentially wasn't him at all, and I for one would look forward to his return to the chat.

I personally don't have a problem with this, but GEEMA raises a valid point. If this was a re-occurring problem with an individual, I could see the argument, but since as far as I can tell, this was the first time with him, I think it is important that we, as a community, help each other out. Honestly, I was not there when this happened, so I was kind of confused at first, but from what I can tell, it was just someone going through a rough time who couldn't deal with it any more and kind of exploded. Ultimately, I think he should be allowed back.

We will be mature and respectful of other people's opinions. You may disagree with some people and that's alright - but you still have to respect their opinions on this topic, as their voice should be heard, regardless of the person.

I am reminding people of this because some people believe that their voice will be silenced due to their previous opinions in debates and arguments completely unrelated to this, and that they would be written off due to their previous sentiments. This should not, and will not be the case here.

Sprinkles wants to come back because he loves this group and its people. He had no intent of hurting anyone - at the time, he was affected by what we've agreed to call a forced shift of personality.

Physically, he was at the keyboard, yes. Mentally? Not so much.

We've already determined - rightfully so - that mental issues don't excuse people from being plain awful. But they do need to be taken into consideration in cases like this.

Additionally, Iximaz never have a reason for objecting to Sprinkles coming back. I know the reason, at least in general terms, because I've been talking to both of them (though I have talked to Sprinkles much, much more about this), but the fact that he wasn't willing to say why he objected to the group at large speaks volumes to me.
It's also entirely possible that nobody asked and he would have been willing to say why if someone had - which is why I'm asking now, in this discussion, what exactly his reason was. Why, Ix?

--Cal

It's important to note that a few other people did object to bringing Sprinkles back. As I understand it, nobody thinks that he's a bad person or should be banned in the traditional sense (i.e. for bad behavior). The concern is that it's a huge emotional drain on everyone when someone, anyone, has a meltdown like that--not only because the things said were potentially harmful, but because we're worried about Sprinkles' own well-being.

Speaking for myself, I have no objections to bringing Sprinkles back, but I do want to see him get the kind of support and help that he needs to feel better about himself even at his low points. I'm not sure that we can offer that. Of course we can be friends, but there's only so much a username and some text on the Internet written by a stranger can do for self-esteem.

I realize I'm rambling, so I'll stop. I just wanted to provide a little more context to the situation as I saw it, and anyone can obviously correct me if I misread something.