Responsy response.

Subject: Responsy response.
Author: Huinesoron
Posted on: 2017-12-22 17:52:00 UTC

I'm gonna start by saying that I really liked the film, just as much on the second viewing as the first. I'm terrible at ranking things, so I can't say whether it was 'the best', but I thought it was very good.

Is that enough to blot out spoilers? Ehh, probably. So: spoilers ahead!

Porgs: I was surprised they were as big a thing as they were, and I'm going to agree with you that they exist to sell toys. But! They're also adonkable. ^^

I think you've misunderstood what happened to Leia: at no point was she dead. She got thrown out into space, then used the Force to pull herself back. She then went into a coma, because, y'know, vacuum exposure. But she was never dead.

The Rey-Ben 'linking' thing is obviously playing off the moment at the end of Empire where Luke reaches out to Leia - I think it was even framed the same way, with them appearing on opposite sides of the screen. It's definitely new; one assumes it's an esoteric Force technique from wherever Snoke's background is. The EU had more than enough of those (green Force lightning, anyone?).

The astral projection, though... well, I suppose Obi-Wan could have used it, but since it apparently results in death shortly after, I can't imagine it was worthwhile? The prequels also established that returning as a Force ghost is a technique that was only (re?)discovered recently, so this might be an offshoot of that. I don't think it's unreasonable as a power - heck, given that Luke never actually made physical contact with Kylo (he just dodges with his saber), it's actually the same thing as what Snoke did.

Incidentally, does anyone else think that Luke projected himself to Tatooine in his final moments? I'm not entirely sure Ahch-To has two suns, and there was definite heat-haze in front of that sunset.

Coming now to Luke's characterisation... I don't think he did create the map for people to find him. We just rewatched Force Awakens, and the impression I got was that it was his research. The Empire had the larger part, which Luke and Artoo got hold of at some point; Luke then did his own investigations to finish off the last piece. He probably tried to destroy the 'missing piece', but didn't quite pull it off - hence the hunt for it before the sequels began.

So, to his character: Luke is a terrible teacher, y'know that? I mean, we always knew it, but... seriously, just awful. Ahem.

What was Luke's motivation in the original trilogy? To save his friends first, and second, to become a Jedi. Afterwards, that last seems to have turned into 'restore the Jedi'. And how did he do?

Well, on the one hand, his friends were 'safe': the galaxy was at peace. But on the other hand... by failing Ben Solo, he managed to comprehensively fail both of those aims. His bid to restore the Jedi had failed utterly: his students were either dead or evil. Some of those students were probably his friends (in the EU, he had several who were older than him). But moreover, he had failed both Han and Leia, by letting their son fall to the Dark Side. Heck, Force Awakens implies that's what broke up their marriage.

Luke 'the Last Jedi' suggests that's when he gave up, but I don't think that's true. He went looking for (and found!) the first Jedi temple, with the ancient texts that were there. You can imagine how eagerly he read them, and what do you think he found?

Nothing. No teaching guides; no hints as to where he went wrong; no guide to rescuing students from the Dark Side. Just vague philosophising and moralistic rambles. It's significant that Luke refers to them as being part of the 'Jedi religion'. Not science, not skill, not even order - religion. One he can no longer believe.

He cuts himself off from the Force. He meditates. He tries to communicate with the native creatures of the island. He probably clambers into the Dark Cave and gets shown something useless in the mirror (he seems to know a fair bit about it, after all). But nothing he does gives him any answers, and he just gets more and more bitter.

Then Rey shows up, with some whingy story about the Resistance being in trouble. How much does she actually say? I don't remember it being much, just 'Leia wants you to come back, everything's terrible'. Which, yeah, Leia always wanted him to come back, but how can he face her after what he did...?

What Rey definitely doesn't say - because she doesn't know - is that Leia is about to die. So far as she knows, the Resistance is safely away, untrackable at light-speed. Her message is 'if you come back, we can take the fight to the enemy' - not 'you're my only hope'.

I'm not sure of the timeline of the ending, but if I've got it right, it goes like this:

-Artoo guilts Luke into caring.
-Luke contacts Leia, a) helping her heal, and b) finding out how bad things actually are.
-Luke goes to Rey - only to find her making out with the enemy (yeah, yeah, whatever).
-Rey turns on him and leaves.
-Luke sees the complete failure of the Jedi. He's failed twice at training them (he probably thinks Rey is off to join Kylo at this point), and the whole 'goodness and light' thing is apparently gone in the galaxy.
-Feeling utterly betrayed by the Jedi Order, he goes to burn the tree.
-Yoda!
-Luke prepares himself for a massive feat of Force-projection, perhaps under Yoda's guidance, and for his own inevitable death.
-He projects himself to Crait, and we know the rest.

I don't see anything inconsistent in that timeline, or in Luke's character. As to why he didn't fly out to Crait in person... well, his X-wing is completely dead (apparently he's scavenged hull plating for his door), and the Falcon just flew off. He can't get to Crait... except through the Force.

Jumping now to Kylo: I think his arc is probably the (a) core of the trilogy. He started out by wanting to live up to his grandfather; in this film he discovered (as did sooooo many other people) that it's not who you are, but who you can become. By rejecting being like Vader, he became his own person - but who that person is will only unfold in Episode IX.

Random thoughts:

-I see no reason to doubt that Rey's parents were nobody, but equally, her connection to the island was referred to too much for that to be all there is to it.

-The words 'the last Jedi' appear in both dialogue and the title crawl of Force Awakens. Is the title of Episode IX in the crawl for LJ?

-I'm pretty sure this film marks the first time in Star Wars history that a starship has run out of fuel - and the first time that a protagonist's reckless plan has not only failed, but also backfired horrifically. I approve. ^^

hS

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doctorlit reviews: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi by doctorlit on 2017-12-20 18:12:00 UTC Reply

Okay, so. Making an effort to do more, longer-content posts on the Board. Time is limited for me, but I have to try. I feel like my job is pulling me away from my number-one hobby, and I don't like it. From here on out, I intend to try to write something about every piece of fiction I consume, and hopefully inspire a discussion thread as a result.

Anyway. Star Wars. I saw it yesterday with my mom and brother, and the following will essentially be my unfiltered, initial impressions, as I haven't yet watched or read any reviews online. Here is the official SPOILER WARNING for not only The Last Jedi, but probably for at least some aspects of the other seven films, as well. And I'm potentially spoiling everything so please, go no further if you haven't watched yet.

Also, I don't have all the new character and planet names memorized yet, so forgive me for being vague about any of those. And for rambling. It will be mostly rambling.

I think this was the best-written and best-plotted Star Wars to date. It's far more character-motivated than any of the others by far. The inevitable consequence of this is that Last Jedi finally does what I feel Lucas was trying to communicate about the setting all along, particularly in the prequel trilogy, but wasn't quite able to due to his poor writing ability: make Star Wars morality not black-and-white. And to make the message even more powerful, that it's delivered primarily through Luke Skywalker, a character that pop culture has viewed for decades as one of the most generic golden-boy good guys. It was a little shocking to see him criticizing the Jedi order, but also kind of freeing, when it comes down to it. To me, this says (finally) that it's not the side you say you're on, not the face value colors you wear, but the things you do with the abilities you possess. The film plays with this in so many ways, both subtle and obvious. Luke's lack of regard for the past Jedi institutions, while focusing his training of Rey on simply studying and understanding the Force itself, is a big part of it. Rey herself also supports this theme, overtly being called by the natural Dark Side cave on the island, and sometimes having some darkly utilitarian thoughts ("The Force is something the Jedi use to control people and . . . and move things."), while very clearly having "good" goals in defeating Snoke and keeping the Resistance alive.

Kylo Ren has become a much more interesting villain to me this time around. The film makers did an incredible job of setting up his turn to the Light Side, making him interact with Rey throughout the movie, having such heartfelt and honest discussions with her, and . . . man, it was such a stirring scene for me when he offed Snoke and stood back-to-back with Rey to fight off the Knights of Ren! And of course, the ending of Return of the Jedi set us all up to expect Kylo to join the Light . . . so what a depressing let-down right afterwards, when he takes control of the First Order and continues the attack on the Resistance! But it makes Kylo a more believable villain for me. Most of the past Star Wars villains, particularly Palpatine and Maul, were basically motivated by their belief systems, acting in the name of the Sith religion for purely abstract reasons. I like that Kylo rejects all that came before, acting in the name of his own desires. I hope things stay that way in Episode IX, now that he has essentially ended the Sith as we've known it so far. It also makes him an unexpected mirror to Luke, since during this film they both more or less literally burn down the legacies of the established faiths they once represented.

Slight side note from there: I love that after all the fan theories about Snoke's identity and significance to past SW history, he just gets killed off with no real revelations or examination of him here. What a great red herring! Incidentally, now that I've seen him in non-hologram form and heard him speak more, I do think he was Palpatine after all. I can easily see the texture of his skin and the mutilation of the left side of his face being results of the electrocution and fall Palpatine took at the end of RotJ, and his voice frequently takes on the same growling timber of the Emperor's ~~sexy~~ voice. But as I said, it really doesn't matter any more, and I'm okay with that.

One major, ongoing weakness that this film shares with the entire rest of the series is that we still don't have a reasonable explanation behind the politics in the conflict. Like, the prequel trilogy remains the most solid politics explanation so far, and that primarily only worked because Palpatine stood to gain so much in a dictatorship because he got to be the dictator. I suppose Snoke's motivation in starting the First Order was probably similar, but I can't understand why General Hux and the rest of the storm trooper regimens are so dedicated to wiping out the Senate and the Resistance, when they're essentially nothing but grunts. In The Force Awakens, Hux gave that grand speech about wiping out chaos and imposing order, but that's just philosophy. I want to really know why Hux and company think a dictatorship is the best, most efficient, most productive way to run the galaxy. I want to know what problems were either being caused by, or not being addressed by, the Republic Senate that justified obliterating seven planets' worth of sentient people. I think the non-Force using Empire/Order side of the conflict in SW is unavoidably going to feel rather cardboard until we start to understand their viewpoint better. But again, hopefully Kylo's turning away from "identity politics" in this film will allow more room for development of a real purpose to the First Order in future films.

Finally, Yoda. Yo-yo-yo-yo-yoda! His appearance was just such an absolute pleasure. Frank Oz's performance follows along from the ones in Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, complete with the return to the puppet, rather than the CGI used for Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith. Even admitting that the puppet technology really doesn't look that good in the current age of film, it felt good, it felt right, to know that in the final moment of that scene, Mark Hamill and the Yoda puppet were actually leaning against each other, and that it wasn't something just added in post. It also fits that the puppet form of the original trilogy is Yoda's "defining" point in time from which Yoda appears as a ghost, as I feel that even Yoda was being influenced by the decadence of the Jedi order during the events of the prequel trilogy (even he couldn't see beyond the veil of darkness Palpatine was cloaked in), and that his time on Dagobah was truly the time of his greatest enlightenment under the Force. Following from this, and tying into my earlier point about not equating "Light Side" with "Jedi" and "Dark Side" with "Sith," Yoda is even the one who follows up on Luke's desire to wipe out the old Jedi codes and laws by immolating them, even using natural lightning to do so—an excellent Light Side use to parallel the long-established use of lightning as an attack by Dark Side users. For a scene that contains a lightning bolt and small forest fire, it's such a peaceful, comforting scene. Very well done!

Finally, some minor stuff. I like the guinea pig-birds as fine and funny SW-feeling background decoration, but disliked the crystal canines, as they looked a bit too much like a World of Warcraft monster, even though they actually had a storyline purpose. However, I loved the planet the crystal canines lived on, though. I first saw that planet, and I was like, "Oh, an all-ice world, like Hoth." But then, it turns out to be salt! A planet whose geology is primarily salt! That's so original, and made for some great visuals during that battle sequence, especially in the underground caves later on. It might even account for the stupid appearance of the crystal canines, if the crystals in their fur are partly due to salt being incorporated into their biology. I found the hologram cameo from Maz to be pretty unnecessary and tacked-on, especially since Rose came from the planet Maz directed her group to anyway. Seems like she could have just known about the master hacker guy herself, and saved the movie an entire scene. The scene in the casino was great. It had all the creativity of past "cantinas" in both set and character design, but felt noticeably different from any setting we've seen in SW so far. It also put the overly clean and shiny aesthetic of the prequel trilogy to much more appropriate use. I probably don't even have to point out that the heroes rescuing the hippogriff-looking animals that were being abused for sport gave me all kinds of happy feels quite beyond the ones being invoked by watching a new SW movie. I especially love that the animals escape by trashing the casino, where the money raised off betting on them was being spent. And the final sequence involving Luke was perfect in every way.

—doctorlit calls it: Episode IX will have Hayden Christensen appear as Anakin's Force ghost, and it will be amazing

Here are some spoiler lines for use in discussion posts, to keep spoilers out of the automatically generated previews:

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My thoughts (probably some spoilers) by Tomash on 2018-01-05 00:26:00 UTC Reply

So, I got out of Star Wars an hour or so ago, and I have a few opinions.

I liked:
- The complex, less black-and-white storyline
- That still ended on a high note
- The lack-of-sound and several mostly-snapshots effect. That was a neat thing
- The fact that they managed to make it feel like the movie was over several times, only to "but wait, there's more" me
- The porgs. They were cute

I didn't like:
- The fact that they didn't go with Poe/Finn. It is was 2017, would it've killed them to add one gay ship?

Overall, very good, would recommend

- Tomash
An interesting fact about porgs: by Scapegrace on 2017-12-24 00:04:00 UTC Reply

They're only there because Skellig Michael (aka Luke's island) is absolutely full of puffins, and it was too much effort to edit them out. Thus, porgs were designed and edited over all the puffins in shot. =]

And to think we only got them . . . by doctorlit on 2017-12-24 03:49:00 UTC Reply

. . . thanks to wildlife protection laws and editing difficulties!

—doctorlit, ultimately pretty happy the Galaxy Far, Far Away contains porgs now

Saw it today with my brothers. by Hardric on 2017-12-23 21:13:00 UTC Reply

"They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler."

And I liked it. The grayer view on the Force and the Jedi is something I always appreciate, especially when you remember the way Jedi are supposed to work before Order 66 (Fan of KotORs and the Old Republic in general speaking). And I always felt like 'Euh, so the perfect Jedi is a droid?' and 'How Anakin is the only one Jedi snapping? That way of doing things just breed darksiders'. Good to see that questioning brought up in the movies, beyond the 'meta' we can see with Luke mocking the idea he's a Deus Ex Machina, especially when we remember so many people prefered Han over him in the original trilogy.

I also like the general 'Reality Ensues' attached to the Resistance and so many points of the movie. Heroes and desperate plans don't always save the day, not all scoundrels have the nobless of becoming Han Solo, defeating the superweapon or killing their leader doesn't mean the enemy is done... The lesson of 'sometimes the only possible victory is living long enough to fight again later' is also a good one point to bring out too.

And frankly, I like the way Kylo offed Snoke. We know the dark side is a way laced with treachery, where apprentices kill their masters to take their power... Actually seeing it happen successfully (for once) feels impressive, and the fight scene with the guards after that certainly don't spoil anything. Having him stay on the dark side feels perfect here too, the idea he could have turned back to the light here would have been so cheap.

Also really liked the scene were they used Yoda the puppet. It's so precious, fun, awesome, and the essage he delivers he's the right one at the moment.

And I don't see why some people on the web are saalty bout the way Luke dies. First, the projection thing? ~~Legends~~Expanded Universe had Force illusions, and if a Jedi can create one of a Super Star Destroyer, or some darksiders the illusion of more warships in a fleet, why not this? And the idea it overetends Luke and costs him his life isn't far-fetched or anything to me. And as a small OT, don't see that much of a problem with the critters Porg. Sure, they're clearly there to make plushies, but they appear seconds at most in a row, except when they distract Chewie. I can get over them.

All in all, I liked that movie, and I'm curious about where they'll go with the next ones.

... Yes, the scene with Leia and the vacuum felt a bit ridiculious. I wonder where she got enough of a Force training for pulling that off. Still not spoiling the movie for me.

Re: reality ensues by doctorlit on 2017-12-24 03:47:00 UTC Reply

"They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler."

Yeah, they did a good job with that message. I also liked that, like the question of grey morality among the Jedi, they didn't try to paint heroics as black-and-white either. Poe got rightly condemned for losing so many lives to take out a scary ship, delaying an evacuation in the process. But Vice Admiral Holdo actually uses a suicide tactic later on, this time for the sake of saving lives and giving an evacuation more time to continue. It's a movie that asks you to weigh your options before acting.

—doctorlit, amused by "the perfect Jedi is a droid"

I have mixed feelings. by Neshomeh on 2017-12-22 15:18:00 UTC Reply

(Post gets more spoilery as it goes.)

There were a lot of moments that were really awesome, but there were also a lot of moments that left me confused or just felt like blatant manipulation, telling me how to feel. All storytelling is manipulation, but I shouldn't be aware that it's happening. {= P

Part of the problem is that the characters don't feel fully realized to me, and I've had this problem with pretty much everything J.J. Abrams has touched that I'm aware of. (So, Star Wars and Star Trek. >.> ) The film moves along at such a clip that we don't get to spend a lot of time just being with these people, seeing them be themselves. We never get a scene like the one on the Falcon in A New Hope, with Obi-Wan teaching Luke how to use the lightsaber, discussing the Force, with Han Solo commenting in the background. It's a beautiful, quiet scene that shows us who these people are in their hearts: brash, headstrong Luke, philosophical Obi-Wan, and pragmatic Han. It also gives us more information about the Force, which we need at that point. It stays precisely as long as it needs to to get the job done, and the story moves forward.

There were times that really tried to happen in this one. I liked the scenes between Rey and Kylo, though I would have liked to see them sharing the screen more. I think I understand why they did it they way they did, but not seeing the actors playing off each other, if they even did, takes something away from them. I spent a lot of time thinking about whether Adam Driver's voice really sounds like that and the perpetual mournful look in his eyes. What's up with that? Does he really feel that way, or is it all part of manipulating Rey? I'unno.

But, for the most part, it felt to me like everyone was doing things because they were supposed to, because that's their trope and/or the plot says so. Poe in particular says to me, "I am this trilogy's headstrong hotshot, therefore I must doubt my superiors and rebel against them at all times." If there was anything in the previous movie to show us why, I don't remember it.

I think Finn and Rose would've been better if they hadn't been used for the worst plan ever, which brings me to my second major issue: the logic and coherence of the plot. It was... lacking. In this instance, I'm pretty sure it takes time to travel through space even at light-speed. Why in the galaxy did the writers decide it was a good idea to make these characters leave the fleet, which is (IIRC) in the middle of nowhere, fleeing for its life and perilously low on resources, to go jaunting off to some other planet god knows how far away, to go hunting for some guy who may or may not help them assuming they can even find him in the first place? This is a terrible plan, and it makes the plight of the fleet feel cheaper, and dragging in another new character to fix the problem takes away the chance for the ones we already have to do something awesome themselves. I'd have liked the combination of Rose's technical expertise and Finn's familiarity with the Empire's systems to save the day. The point about people profiting off both sides of war just felt shoehorned in, too.

Not that I didn't grin a whole lot at the scene where they saved the moose-dog-horses. ... Though, I kept thinking to myself, you know they're just going to get rounded up again, and probably beaten for their trouble, so even that was pretty pointless. {= (

I don't have a problem with the new demonstrations of the Force. We've seen Force-users sense each other's presence plenty of times before, so extending that awareness to conversation seems logical. The astral projection seems to fit in with the existence of Force ghosts, and as to why it's not done more? It seems as though the effort killed Luke. So that's a pretty good reason.

I don't think Leia was dead in space. I think she was on the brink, and at the last moment regained consciousness enough to draw herself to the ship. Or the ship to her? It doesn't matter. This isn't a new power; it's a pretty standard one. And the combination of exposure and exertion clearly cost her. I was cool with it.

That said, though, a lot of the scenes with Leia felt like blatant emotional manipulation. I know, Carrie Fisher is gone and it's sad, but just giving us Leia being awesome would've been a fine tribute. No need to beat us over the head with the fact of her loss.

Let's see, what else... Oh, I liked Snoke once we met him, and I think his character was badly under-served. Comparing to the original trilogy again, they failed to effectively build him up as the Emperor was built up before we finally met him. The Emperor was kept in shadow until he came on the scene. We only really knew him through the respect and deference showed to him by Darth Vader. This was powerful because Darth Vader himself is respected and feared, a man who operates under his own set of rules and bows to no one—except this guy. Scary!

Snoke didn't get that. We don't particularly respect Kylo the wimpy Vader-wannabe in the first movie, and he doesn't particularly respect Snoke, either. The only mystery about this character is exactly how he worked his way into Kylo's head in the first place, and this is only made more confusing by what we learn of the story in this movie. Kylo was under Luke's care, with several other students. How did Snoke approach him? What did he say or do that was so compelling? Were we ever shown or told this? I don't know, and it's too bad, because he was a nicely charismatic bad guy. Too bad he never did anything.

I feel like I'm coming down on the negative side of this, and maybe I am. I'm not sure yet. I'll probably need another viewing or two, after rewatching The Force Awakens for context.

~Neshomeh

Re: Leia and plot and characters and Abrams by doctorlit on 2017-12-24 03:36:00 UTC Reply

I admit I didn't really notice before you pointed it out, but you're right about the entire mission Finn and Rose went on: it's a fetch quest. I've been trying to come up with a way to "fix" it the way I would if I were editing a story, but . . . I really can't find anything. (Other than your suggestion of having Finn and Rose use their technical skills and experience to solve the problem. But that would have been a much shorter movie . . .

I really don't think there was any intentional emotional manipulation on the filmmakers' parts. As far as I understood it, filming was already completed when we lost Carrie Fisher, so I think the scene with the bridge attack was already planned and shot by then. A little uncomfortable in hindsight, to be sure, but I don't blame them for wanting to leave as much of her acting work in as possible.

—doctorlit, too distracted by the feels and the spectacle to notice the holes in the plot

You pretty much nailed everything I felt about this movie. by Iximaz on 2017-12-20 18:59:00 UTC Reply

I mean, what more is there to say? It was an excellent movie and you covered, well, everything.

Only one small quibble with you: The crystal foxes were awesome and it is blasphemy to say otherwise. :P

Needless to say, there are spoilers here... by [EvilAI]UBEROverlord on 2017-12-22 13:34:00 UTC Reply

***SPOILER TAG***

So my thoughts, are kind of in opposition to both of yours. This was one of my least favorite of the series. One of the biggest reasons my opinion is low is this was the first of the three Disney Star Wars that felt like a Disney film.

There was way too much humor that did not really serve a purpose to me. The first scene with Rey and Luke for instance. And the porgs. I hated those things. I understand they were in it for the specific reason that the island that served as Luke's refuge was a puffin preserve and it was easier to CG over the puffins than to remove them. But the Porg in the Falcon irritated me to no end, and the Puppy-Dog Eyes one. They would have been fine in the background if they were kept there. But to me they seem like an obvious marketing ploy to sell plush toys.

I also did not like Super-Leia. The Force being able to reverse death by vacuum and save yourself. That seemed a bit ridiculous. Which brings me to another thing I was not a fan of. New Force Powers, the bond Snoke created and more importantly the Astral Projection nonsense. That's a gamebreaker, and if such a thing existed, why did someone like Yoda or Obi-wan never use it in the previous films? I think the scene would have had way more impact with Luke's physical presence.

Which brings me to my final critic. Luke's characterization. I'm going into exile, but let me create this map so you can find me if you need me. You found me and need my help? Buzz off. I mean this was a man who was willing to surrender himself to Vader to be brought to the Emperor because he thought Vader had good in him and he did not want to put other at risk. Who undertook a risky mission to confront Vader to save his friends. I could understand a personality change or alteration (especially if they gave us more of Kylo Ren's fall to the darkside), but to me this felt more like a very OOC Luke.

On the plus side, I did like the development Rey had, and I like the way here character is progressing. I also liked Kylo Ren in this movie far more than I did in Force Awakens. He now feels like the villain he was supposed to be. And it does make him a much more interesting character than Vader-wannabe.

I do plan on watching it again, after I have rewatched the entire Saga to better contextualize it to see if I like it better.

Re: porgs and Leia and Luke by doctorlit on 2017-12-23 12:20:00 UTC Reply

I think I actually like the porgs more now, knowing at least some of them were covering up actual fat-bird behavior. I'm really kind of shocked that the internet-at-large seems to revile them so much, because they really don't do anything. When they do get focused on, it's barely for two seconds before the movie takes over again. The only scene that gives them longer screen time is when they're watching Chewbacca eat their kin, and even that has a plot purpose: distracting Chewbacca from seeing Luke enter the Falcon. And did anyone not want Luke and R2-D2 from having that quiet little reunion scene together? That was a wonderful moment! . . . Brought to us by the porgs!

And really, it's okay for there to be some cutesy stuff in Star Wars. It's a pretty dang big galaxy; there's room for them. Their design is actually fairly creative, too. It would have been so easy to just cover up the real life sea birds with space fantasy sea birds, but the designers went guinea pig instead. Guinea pigs that still nest like birds and care for young in the same way as birds (one was seen delivering food to the nestlings, so they don't have mammaries, despite their mammal-like appearance), they can even fly like birds! I think they're fun. ~~And less plot-intrusive than Ewoks. Yeah, I said it!~~

On Leia . . . Honestly, I was a little angry during the moment when she appeared to have been killed off. Especially since the ice crystals developing on her skin looked a bit CGI, I was afraid this was how the screen-writers had chosen to remove her from the trilogy. In that moment, I felt like it was far too early to remove her from the plot, especially knowing from press releases that Carrie Fisher had contributed so much performance during filming. So my feelings when Leia regained consciousness and reverse-Force-pushed her way back to the ship were feelings of roaring triumph and relief, and I really didn't care how contrived or silly the methods looked. I still don't particularly care about that aspect; I'm just glad we got more Leia as a result.

That said, I'm actually a little furious that they killed off Admiral Ackbar. It's not like his appearance was tied to a particular actor or anything; he could have stayed in the series FOREVER.

As for Luke, I pretty much agree with Huinesoron's assessment. Luke had no way off the island. I didn't catch that his door was built of X-Wing parts, but after my initial reaction of "he's going to lift the X-Wing out of the water later, like Dagobah!" the logic sunk in: that fighter's been underwater for years, if not decades. And if that body of water surrounding the Jedi island (Jedisland?) is salty like an Earth ocean, the metal would be corroded. There's pretty much zero chance it would function any more.

One small note: I agree with hS's and Neshomeh's idea that Luke died from the effort of Force-projecting himself to another planet. It's the simpler explanation, compared to what I thought of during the movie: that all that blaster fire was psychologically harming Luke while it was hitting all around him. There's some maybe-corroboration for this theory: He does carefully dodge all of Kylo's lightsaber thrusts during their duel, although that could also have been to keep Kylo from realizing it wasn't really Luke, to give the Resistance more time to escape. Also, during the very first scene when Rey and Kylo are mentally linked, Rey fires a blaster at him, and Kylo seems to experience some pain. But again, I think hS and Nesh win the Occam's razor award, here.

As for introducing new Force powers: well, they kind of have to, don't they? If we stuck only with stuff from the previous six episodes, there wouldn't be any sense of discovery abut what the Force can do. I mean, I still think the silliest portrayal of a Force power in the series thus far is when Darth Vader stopped Han's blaster shots at Bespin by . . . blocking them? With his hand? Video gamish much? Maybe it's the same idea as Kylo stopping the blaster energy in midair in TFA, and the effects at the time couldn't manage something like that, but . . . it's pretty silly looking now.

—doctorlit cares for a two-toed sloth named Chewie, is apparently not capable of shortening Chewbacca's name any more

The good Admiral. by Huinesoron on 2017-12-23 16:20:00 UTC Reply

Are we still doing spoiler blocks? I guess we are; it's a good opportunity to just ramble incoherently for a while. I certainly agree with you about the reunion - I don't think I said in my other comment, but Luke's 'Artoo!' was the first time he genuinely sounded like Luke Skywalker again. ^_^

Now, Admiral Ackbar: in the old EU, he was written out off-screen too, dying ignominiously of old age. I'm pretty sure Mon Mothma went the same way.

In fact, the EU had a nasty habit of bumping off all its elder statesmen in depressing ways. Pellaeon at least got to be assassinated, but Crix Madine was shot by a lunatic Hutt, Ta'a Chume ended up in a coma, Jan Dodonna just got old... stars, the EU was a depressing place sometimes. (Though for my money, the most miserable death was Em Teedee, Lowbacca's translator droid... who got dropped on a ship which later crashed and incinerated him. I don't think anyone even noticed he'd gone.)

Sorry, random asides aside: it is a shame we lost Admiral Ackbar so... pointlessly. I mean, he had to die to let Vice Admiral Holdo take command (btw, unrequited Holdo/Leia 'ship, y/n?), but we could at least have seen it. Unlike Warhammer, Star Wars isn't generally a place for 'anyone can die any time'.

hS

The best Admiral! by doctorlit on 2017-12-24 03:14:00 UTC Reply

"They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler." "They hate that spoiler."

(Yeah, I hilariously overestimated how much spoiler text was necessary in the initial post . . .)

But that only makes it worse! We could have had a movie with a whole bunch of Admiral Ackbar scenes right in the middle! That would have been amazing! Like, no offense to Vice Admiral Holdo or her actor, just . . . I don't know you, Vice Admiral Holdo. I knew Admiral Ackbar. He was an old friend . . .

. . . Oh, but I just discovered the reason. Wikipedia says Ackbar's original voice actor passed away after The Force Awakens. They found another voice actor for Last Jedi, but maybe wanted to retire the character? I feel like a jerk, now . . .

I do feel like there's a bit of a bias towards human characters in Star Wars, especially in the newer films. I don't think Chewbacca has gotten nearly as much relative screen time in VII and VIII as he did in the original trilogy. I know Luke, Leia and Han were always the focus, but there was still room for Chewbacca and even Ewoks to participate in battles. And the prequels had Jar Jar and brought Chewbacca back for a bit . . . I know Jar Jar wasn't well received, but my point is that in this series set in space and filled with planets of unique, bizarre life forms, and the main movers and shakers always seem to be humans. I realize that the CGI or makeup/puppetry for an alien character is more complex than just throwing clothes on an actor and putting them on screen, but I really would like a bit more species diversity in a series full of aliens . . .

—doctorlit just, like, doesn't know Vice Admiral Holdo, okay?

Responsy response. by Huinesoron on 2017-12-22 17:52:00 UTC Reply

I'm gonna start by saying that I really liked the film, just as much on the second viewing as the first. I'm terrible at ranking things, so I can't say whether it was 'the best', but I thought it was very good.

Is that enough to blot out spoilers? Ehh, probably. So: spoilers ahead!

Porgs: I was surprised they were as big a thing as they were, and I'm going to agree with you that they exist to sell toys. But! They're also adonkable. ^^

I think you've misunderstood what happened to Leia: at no point was she dead. She got thrown out into space, then used the Force to pull herself back. She then went into a coma, because, y'know, vacuum exposure. But she was never dead.

The Rey-Ben 'linking' thing is obviously playing off the moment at the end of Empire where Luke reaches out to Leia - I think it was even framed the same way, with them appearing on opposite sides of the screen. It's definitely new; one assumes it's an esoteric Force technique from wherever Snoke's background is. The EU had more than enough of those (green Force lightning, anyone?).

The astral projection, though... well, I suppose Obi-Wan could have used it, but since it apparently results in death shortly after, I can't imagine it was worthwhile? The prequels also established that returning as a Force ghost is a technique that was only (re?)discovered recently, so this might be an offshoot of that. I don't think it's unreasonable as a power - heck, given that Luke never actually made physical contact with Kylo (he just dodges with his saber), it's actually the same thing as what Snoke did.

Incidentally, does anyone else think that Luke projected himself to Tatooine in his final moments? I'm not entirely sure Ahch-To has two suns, and there was definite heat-haze in front of that sunset.

Coming now to Luke's characterisation... I don't think he did create the map for people to find him. We just rewatched Force Awakens, and the impression I got was that it was his research. The Empire had the larger part, which Luke and Artoo got hold of at some point; Luke then did his own investigations to finish off the last piece. He probably tried to destroy the 'missing piece', but didn't quite pull it off - hence the hunt for it before the sequels began.

So, to his character: Luke is a terrible teacher, y'know that? I mean, we always knew it, but... seriously, just awful. Ahem.

What was Luke's motivation in the original trilogy? To save his friends first, and second, to become a Jedi. Afterwards, that last seems to have turned into 'restore the Jedi'. And how did he do?

Well, on the one hand, his friends were 'safe': the galaxy was at peace. But on the other hand... by failing Ben Solo, he managed to comprehensively fail both of those aims. His bid to restore the Jedi had failed utterly: his students were either dead or evil. Some of those students were probably his friends (in the EU, he had several who were older than him). But moreover, he had failed both Han and Leia, by letting their son fall to the Dark Side. Heck, Force Awakens implies that's what broke up their marriage.

Luke 'the Last Jedi' suggests that's when he gave up, but I don't think that's true. He went looking for (and found!) the first Jedi temple, with the ancient texts that were there. You can imagine how eagerly he read them, and what do you think he found?

Nothing. No teaching guides; no hints as to where he went wrong; no guide to rescuing students from the Dark Side. Just vague philosophising and moralistic rambles. It's significant that Luke refers to them as being part of the 'Jedi religion'. Not science, not skill, not even order - religion. One he can no longer believe.

He cuts himself off from the Force. He meditates. He tries to communicate with the native creatures of the island. He probably clambers into the Dark Cave and gets shown something useless in the mirror (he seems to know a fair bit about it, after all). But nothing he does gives him any answers, and he just gets more and more bitter.

Then Rey shows up, with some whingy story about the Resistance being in trouble. How much does she actually say? I don't remember it being much, just 'Leia wants you to come back, everything's terrible'. Which, yeah, Leia always wanted him to come back, but how can he face her after what he did...?

What Rey definitely doesn't say - because she doesn't know - is that Leia is about to die. So far as she knows, the Resistance is safely away, untrackable at light-speed. Her message is 'if you come back, we can take the fight to the enemy' - not 'you're my only hope'.

I'm not sure of the timeline of the ending, but if I've got it right, it goes like this:

-Artoo guilts Luke into caring.
-Luke contacts Leia, a) helping her heal, and b) finding out how bad things actually are.
-Luke goes to Rey - only to find her making out with the enemy (yeah, yeah, whatever).
-Rey turns on him and leaves.
-Luke sees the complete failure of the Jedi. He's failed twice at training them (he probably thinks Rey is off to join Kylo at this point), and the whole 'goodness and light' thing is apparently gone in the galaxy.
-Feeling utterly betrayed by the Jedi Order, he goes to burn the tree.
-Yoda!
-Luke prepares himself for a massive feat of Force-projection, perhaps under Yoda's guidance, and for his own inevitable death.
-He projects himself to Crait, and we know the rest.

I don't see anything inconsistent in that timeline, or in Luke's character. As to why he didn't fly out to Crait in person... well, his X-wing is completely dead (apparently he's scavenged hull plating for his door), and the Falcon just flew off. He can't get to Crait... except through the Force.

Jumping now to Kylo: I think his arc is probably the (a) core of the trilogy. He started out by wanting to live up to his grandfather; in this film he discovered (as did sooooo many other people) that it's not who you are, but who you can become. By rejecting being like Vader, he became his own person - but who that person is will only unfold in Episode IX.

Random thoughts:

-I see no reason to doubt that Rey's parents were nobody, but equally, her connection to the island was referred to too much for that to be all there is to it.

-The words 'the last Jedi' appear in both dialogue and the title crawl of Force Awakens. Is the title of Episode IX in the crawl for LJ?

-I'm pretty sure this film marks the first time in Star Wars history that a starship has run out of fuel - and the first time that a protagonist's reckless plan has not only failed, but also backfired horrifically. I approve. ^^

hS

If they were practical effects, they would have been awesome by doctorlit on 2017-12-20 19:09:00 UTC Reply

But they are boring and blatant CGI, so that makes them boring.

—doctorlit is the movie effects equivalent of a genwunner

Apparently they are! (Spoiler-free) by Neshomeh on 2017-12-22 14:33:00 UTC Reply

At least partly. I don't know how much they used the animatronics vs. CGI, but here, check it out: https://www.youtube.com/embed/SJNfysZRmf4

That is an amazing animatronic. O.O

~Neshomeh

Oooh. Oh nooo. I'm one of those people now. by doctorlit on 2017-12-23 11:44:00 UTC Reply

Yeah, I . . . I really had no inkling there was anything physical about those at all while they were on screen. I have jumped to a conclusion, and am a terrible person. :(

—in defense of doctorlit, the foxes he works with are floof-doggos, rather than shard-doggos
That is super cool. (nm) by Iximaz on 2017-12-22 19:15:00 UTC Reply