The thing is, I'd tend to agree.

Subject: The thing is, I'd tend to agree.
Author: Huinesoron
Posted on: 2017-11-22 22:30:00 UTC

But I think the structure of the Potterverse points directly at magic-hating Vikings. The fact that a Bulgarian stuck Durmstrang up there, with its military bent - the fact that Helga Hufflepuff has a Norse name but lives way over in Wales - the fact that the only Founder who could potentially come from the Danelaw has the least Viking name you can imagine...

On the other hand, it could almost be the other way round. Maybe the reason the Hufflepuffs went west wasn't to escape - it was to teach. I don't know why that Bulgarian witch founded Durmstrang, but her successor - who turned it towards duelling and fighting - has a Norse name, so maybe it's the Vikings who turned it into what it is today.

Or perhaps it's even a combination of the two. The Vikings loved magic, but in an older mode (I'm going to have to mention those Druids again...). We've already had mention of the distaff, and Old Norse is a wonderful language for spellcasting. Durmstrang's second master turned it away from the Latin-based magic its founder used, and towards the old Viking ways. The Hufflepuffs were converts, who found the wand-and-Latin European magic to be better - and were driven out for it.

We're now heading into a really interesting place where the conflict is an inter-magical-system war - Latin versus Norse versus Mayan (versus Salazar's hybrid setup). That's a very fun story to imagine, much better than 'they just hate us'.

It also reminds me of something that I saw when the map of wizarding schools first appeared - a hypothetical Nordic magic school. These could definitely be the cast of Norse-mode Durmstrang.

(Obviously Durmstrang and the Vikings would need to be converted by the 1200s, in time for the Triwizard Tournament. Perhaps the Tournament itself was in celebration of the 'normalisation' of magic in Europe - the conversion of Durmstrang, and the final collapse of the Al-Andalus school.)

hS

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Potterverse musings. by Huinesoron on 2017-11-21 10:34:00 UTC Reply

This all goes back to the Salazar costume drama I suggested last year. You didn't think I'd just forgotten the concept, did you...?

-Question 1: Did the Hogwarts founders use wands?

I know that wands were present in Britain from the BC years (when an Ollivander came over from Rome), but so far as I can tell, there's no evidence of a Gryffindor, Hufflepuff, or Ravenclaw wand. There is a Slytherin wand, but the Harry Potter Wiki says he made it himself - and from snakewood, which doesn't seem to be a concept native to the UK (it's used for Australian acacias and a few New World trees).

So is it possible that wands were in a fallow period at the time of the Founders? Or perhaps Mr Ollivander lived in the British community in Wales, where Saxon Godric, Viking Helga, and Scottish Rowena wouldn't go (they being enemies and all). I may be way off-base, but is there even a possibility that their artefacts - the sword, cup, and diadem - served them in the same way that wands do nowadays? I can certainly imagine Godric channeling curses and spells through a sword.

-Question 2: When was Hogwarts Castle built?

Obviously Hogwarts was founded in AD 990 or so - but was the castle purpose-built for it? More specifically, I'm wondering if it could be built around the ancestral Ravenclaw home. It's in Scotland, and it would make more sense to use an existing building if one was available. We know that many modifications would have been made (Ravenclaw's magic staircases, Slytherin's cave of evil), but could they all be founded on Rowena's castle?

-Question 3: Which spells do not use a Latin incantation?

Yes, yes - 'Avada Kedavra'. That's where this question came from. Going by the Al-Salazar theory (that Slytherin was a Spanish Muslim of North African descent), I'm wondering if he was the one who introduced the Killing Curse to Britain. It certainly seems his style, and the one non-British Founder bringing the non-Latin curse is pretty tidy. So what else could he have contributed?

-Question 4: What's up with Merlin?

I had this idea that Merlin was the formulator of much of the pseudo-Latin magic - that he fit into the mold of the 'Last Roman', a Roman Empire wizard who settled in Britain during the collapse and gave us the pseudo-Latin structure of magic. Except... according to the wiki, Merlin went to Hogwarts, and therefore lived sometime around the Norman Conquest.

Which doesn't make a lot of sense! Merlin is supposed to have been part of King Arthur's court, but the kings in Britain in the 11th century onwards are very well documented, and there's no Arthur in there. Also: why do people keep invoking his name if he's a student of the Founders? Why don't they curse by Griffindor's beard and Ravenclaw's ears instead?

Two possibilities occur (other than 'Rowling mucked up the timeline', obvs):

--King Arthur was king of British Wizardry, setting his own government apart from the Norman kings of England. Shades here of the Raven King from Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell, and the idea of a separate, magical kingdom that the Normans by turns respected and ignored. If we assume the Arthurian legends are similar in wizarding and Muggle tellings, Arthur's court would have fallen apart in civil war over the question of cooperation with the Muggles (rather than Saxons as the Muggles would have it). When Arthur and Mordred killed each other at Camlann, the wizarding world became subject to the Muggle monarchy. Merlin would be famous as the only Court Wizard in history - a sort of token of a Golden Age that never really existed.

--There are two Merlins. One was a gifted student in early Hogwarts, feted as the reincarnation/return of the other: the 5th-century wizard companion of the Muggle King Arthur. His story would be basically as we know it: standing against the Saxon invasion, and ultimately overwhelmed.

Would Merlin then be my post-Roman wizard, who set the magic of the British Isles into Latin so firmly that the Saxons, Vikings, and Normans all ended up adopting it? Or would he be the last stand of British magic, a Druidic (sorry, Ix!) practitioner of a form of the art which would soon be lost in face of the Continental Latin style?

Wait, that invokes another question:

-Question 5: Whence Latin?

We know that Rome was a source of magical knowledge: the first Ollivander was Roman, plus there's all that Latin. Assuming Latin!Merlin isn't a thing, can we guess that the claim Ollie 1 came over with the Romans in the 300s BC means he came over with Roman magic? Ie, that the first appearance of Latin spells in Britain was in 382 BC. That at least solves the issue of a 400-year-early Roman invasion.

But... why would the Saxons and Vikings use the same spells? They drove the British out! Shouldn't they have kept using the spells of Saxony and Scandinavia? And given that the Saxons in particular defined themselves in opposition to Rome, I don't feel like that would have been Latin-based.

I know Latin is the language of scholarship, but the reason for that is the Catholic Church. In which case... is there a possibility that the Church used magic? And that when they came over to convert the Saxons, they also converted them to the 'better' Latin magic? Combined with the introduction of wands (not as good as Ollivander's, obviously, but who'd buy from a Briton), they could probably make a pretty good case.

I don't know, maybe I'm completely off-track here. But it definitely feels like the prevalence of Latin among people who have no reason to adopt it needs an explanation.

hS

The Life and Times of Al-Salazar, the Slytherin by Huinesoron on 2017-11-22 14:48:00 UTC Reply

The man later called Salazar is born in Al-Andalus around 950, to Moorish parents of a wizarding family. The Caliphate of Cordoba is at this time at the peak of its power - in the late 970s, it will strike north to take a huge chunk of Christian Iberia, nearly unifying the penninsula.

Things are fairly good for wizards in Al-Andalus. Magic is an accepted part of Islamic folk religion, and (unlike Christianity) isn't viewed as automatically evil. Al-Salazar spends his youth in the libraries of Medina Azahara, learning about both magic and the world, and is favoured by the wizard Caliph, Al-Hakam II.

But the world is not content to simply be learnt about, and Salazar's studies leave him more and more disturbed. There is an implacable hostility between Al-Andalus and the Christian kingdoms to the north (Leon, Navarre), and the pagans aren't much better - Viking raids, though a century past, left a mark on the landscape of southern Al-Andalus. They also scarred Salazar's family, killing his grandparents despite (or even because of) their magic.

Everywhere he looks, Salazar sees the drawing of battle-lines: not just between religions, but between wizard and Muggle. The Frankish wizarding community is siding with Christendom, trying to buy favour for itself by establishing an anti-Caliphate magic centre in the Pyrenees (which will later become Beauxbatons). Over in Eastern Europe, the peaceful Durmstrang College in Scandinavia has been bent by its second master into an anti-Muggle institution aimed squarely at the Vikings (in fairness, Salazar can sympathise with this). And the Vikings are ranging further and further west, promising future tensions with the Maya who view the whole Western Hemisphere as their area of influence.

Around 970, following a certain incident with the Caliph's daughter Lubna of Cordoba (ahem), Salazar begins to travel the world. He visits proto-Beauxbatons, convincing the Frankish wizards to make peace with the Caliphate (though the Caliph's death in 977 and the subsequent invasions of Christendom reverse this). He trains at Durmstrang under Harfang Munter, introducing the Norse wizard to some of the spells used in the Caliphate. He visits the Mountains of the Moon, learning from the African wizards - and uses their expertise in astronomy to undertake a perilous journey to the New World.

Salazar's adventures in Mesoamerica and North America are numerous. He learns to perfect his inborn skill at Parseltongue, and uses it to meet with the ancient Feathered Serpent who lives in the Mayan lands. This turns out to be a Basilisk, which Salazar befriends to the point that it grants him a sliver of its horn to use in his wand.

Salazar departs, promising the Mayan wizards that he will prevent any Viking incursions into their lands. To this end, he travels first to Iceland, and then to Ireland. In 980, he stands with High King Máel Sechnaill mac Domnaill of Ireland at the Battle of Tara, driving the Vikings out of the Kingdom of Dublin. Then, he journeys to neighboring England.

Why England, and not Scandinavia itself? Three reasons. First, he trusts Durmstrang to keep a lid on things in the Norse lands. Second, he's very concerned by the 'peace' that has sprung up between the Saxons and the Norse - it looks likely to end with the Norse simply taking over the whole of England. Third, there is a prophecy uttered many years ago - a very confusing one, saying things like 'Four must come together for Three to arise, but One will walk a different path' - that suggests Britain is definitely a place to watch.

He enters Britain in the east, on the edge of the ancient Fens, and in the heart of the former Danelaw. It becomes clear that his suspicions are correct - the Viking settlers are seething with resentment at the Saxon king Aethelred, and it is clear that revolt is not far away. Danish raiding parties already harry the English coast, striking all along the south coast. Salazar tries to calm things down, but he is outed as a wizard, and driven from the Fens. He heads west, towards Winchester and the court of King Aethelred, seeking the famous Champion Godric Gryffindor...

Or something like that. Obviously none of this is from the books (which don't even say how old the various schools are), but it serves as backstory to the hypothetical Salazar series. With that in mind - how well does it hold up to both history and canon?

hS

Re: The Life and Times of Al-Salazar, the Slytherin by Miah on 2017-11-22 21:53:00 UTC Reply

I like it. The only thing I wonder about is the hostility of the Vikings to magic. I thought they were more tolerant of it than other Europeans? At least as long it was a woman practicing it? Unless you were Odin, then you practice as you please. I don't know, it's just what I think I remember from something I read.

The thing is, I'd tend to agree. by Huinesoron on 2017-11-22 22:30:00 UTC Reply

But I think the structure of the Potterverse points directly at magic-hating Vikings. The fact that a Bulgarian stuck Durmstrang up there, with its military bent - the fact that Helga Hufflepuff has a Norse name but lives way over in Wales - the fact that the only Founder who could potentially come from the Danelaw has the least Viking name you can imagine...

On the other hand, it could almost be the other way round. Maybe the reason the Hufflepuffs went west wasn't to escape - it was to teach. I don't know why that Bulgarian witch founded Durmstrang, but her successor - who turned it towards duelling and fighting - has a Norse name, so maybe it's the Vikings who turned it into what it is today.

Or perhaps it's even a combination of the two. The Vikings loved magic, but in an older mode (I'm going to have to mention those Druids again...). We've already had mention of the distaff, and Old Norse is a wonderful language for spellcasting. Durmstrang's second master turned it away from the Latin-based magic its founder used, and towards the old Viking ways. The Hufflepuffs were converts, who found the wand-and-Latin European magic to be better - and were driven out for it.

We're now heading into a really interesting place where the conflict is an inter-magical-system war - Latin versus Norse versus Mayan (versus Salazar's hybrid setup). That's a very fun story to imagine, much better than 'they just hate us'.

It also reminds me of something that I saw when the map of wizarding schools first appeared - a hypothetical Nordic magic school. These could definitely be the cast of Norse-mode Durmstrang.

(Obviously Durmstrang and the Vikings would need to be converted by the 1200s, in time for the Triwizard Tournament. Perhaps the Tournament itself was in celebration of the 'normalisation' of magic in Europe - the conversion of Durmstrang, and the final collapse of the Al-Andalus school.)

hS

An admittedly stretching alternative for Merlin: by doctorlit on 2017-11-21 18:53:00 UTC Reply

It's been quite a while since I read The Once and Future King for high school, but I do remember Merlin explained his knowledge of the future by telling Arthur that he experienced time backwards—his memories start at his death. Moving that into the Wizarding World's universe, it sounds like it could be the bizarre results of an untested curse or potion that used Merlin as a test subject—or perhaps even a failed early model of what would go on to become the time turner? Regardless of the actual process or event, it's very clearly magic that involves time in some way. Perhaps another side effect of the living-backwards is a dramatically extended life span, even by wizard standards? Then he can still serve King Arthur in the fifth century, closer to his actual birth—the end of his life, from his perspective—but also would have needed to be trained in magic much later in history, closer to his actual death. By the time Hogwarts opened, he was already an established powerful wizard from everyone else's perspectives, and the founders surely wouldn't have turned him away from enrolling, strange as the request must have seemed.

(Merlin's experience of life must have been difficult. Was he "born" on his death bed unable to talk? Did he have to be taught how to walk and eat? And think of Hogwarts's year structure: the seventh year classes must have been insanely difficult for him, not yet having experienced the basic foundations in the classes of any earlier years.)

—doctorlit, acknowledging that there's ultimately no evidence to this theory on the Potter end.
Before our resident expert joins, I'll try answering some by Matt Cipher on 2017-11-21 16:32:00 UTC Reply

Question 1

I am inclined to believe they did. Maybe not from the very childhood (like Slytherin; I doubt he carved his wand at the very old age of eleven... Also, he might've just travelled for a plant with particular symbolism), but there is a passage from the Wiki's page on Godric Gryffindor, which I believe was taken from Rowling's official site before it redesigned:

"He also had a versatile mindset as he chose to wield a sword as well as a wand (...)"

The only mention of Rowena Ravenclaw's wand is from the Philosopher's Stone video game, but that's a dubious source.

Also, Helga Hufflepuff came from Welsh valleys, not Scandinavia.

Question 2

The Wizarding World of Harry Potter (which, again, might be a dubious source, but I believe it had Rowling's supervision?) kinda answers this one - the castle was designed and built by Rowena and an unnamed wizard architect

So, while I like the idea of the ancestral Ravenclaw House being used, I doubt it.

Question 3

- the Scouring Charm, Scourgify, comes from English.
- Alohomora apparently comes from West African Sidiki dialect
- Pack, used by Tonks

And the Sorting Hat once again comes to the rescue, placing Slytherin's birthplace as "fen".

Question 4

I... I have nothing here. The entire "Merlin and Hogwarts" thing is paradoxical enough.

Question 5

This is another one of the 'maybes', but I'm gonna use my linguistic knowledge to explain this one:

There are two most common reasons for adopting words and phrases (and spells I guess?) from another language:
a) Necessity - when there is no word or phrase in your native language that would describe the phenomenon/object/etc.
b) Fashion - when something from the other country is viewed as prestigious, fancy, luxurious, the adoption of the foreign term and replacement of the native term might occur.

And now I'm gonna go with a hypothesis pulled straight outta nowhere:

"Danelaw: a part of England in which the laws of the Danes held sway and dominated those of the Anglo-Saxons." Danelaw appeared as early as the 9th century. And the two parts did held non-hostile relationship, as evident by many Old Norse words entering the English language.

On the Wizarding side, one factor was, as you mentioned, the appearance of Ollivander Prime, who established his famous shop and gained popularity due to his Roman wandmaking technique. In real life Scandinavian Magic, wands weren't used; instead, sorcerers would mostly use a distaff, a tool used for spinning flax and wool. But just encountering wands wouldn't be enough as, fun fact, the word 'wand' comes from Old Norse "vǫndr", and might be related to "wind".

But the spells produced by wands are a different thing. Perhaps the Scandinavians didn't know half as many convenient spells as the Britons did and the effects couldn't be achieved with the use of a distaff, so they were forced to switch to wands and use words associated with wands.

Now, about that fen. by Huinesoron on 2017-11-22 10:03:00 UTC Reply

Bold Gryffindor, from wild moor,
Fair Ravenclaw, from glen,
Sweet Hufflepuff, from valley broad,
Shrewd Slytherin, from fen.

First off, I have to quibble the word 'from'. If you ask my wife where she's from (after she says 'America'), she probably won't name the state she was born in. That's not where she was raised, or where she spent her teenage years. So 'from' doesn't have to mean 'started from'; heck, it could literally mean 'this is where they were when they had a magical conversation about making a school'.

But setting that aside, let's assume we can trust Godric's hat (I'd forgotten it was his hat; I bet he looked really goofy in it). We can also assume that the narration of the Harry Potter series is trustworthy when it discusses the Founders - given that there's at least one intelligent artefact plus multiple ghosts from the time in question, it would be unreasonable to think it was wrong. What does the Hat's song tell us about the Founders, and how does it stand up to what we already know?

Bold Gryffindor, from wild moor

We know that Godric Gryffindor was born in Godric's Hollow (per Deathly Hallows), which is in the West Country. That term usually means Devon and Cornwall, plus everything up to Somerset - pretty much everything west of the Isle of Wight and south of Wales. The Hat tells us he was from a moor - so where is that?

The obvious answer is that Godric was from either Exmoor or Dartmoor, down in Devon (though Exmoor extends into Somerset). I see no issues with that; it makes him thoroughly English, and from the region which remained English while the Danelaw was in place. Let's move on.

Fair Ravenclaw, from glen

Rowena Ravenclaw was Scottish. The word 'glen' is exclusive to Scotland. It's sometimes exclusive to the Highlands, in the north of Scotland - and what a coincidence, Hogwarts Castle is in the Highlands too.

But was she born Scottish? 'Ravenclaw' is probably her married name - her daughter shares it, and an out-of-wedlock child in the 10th century would be... unusual. 'Rowena', however, is a Latinised Saxon name. So might she be a Saxon of one kind or another, who moved north and married?

Alternately, she could be born in Scotland, but of Saxon ancestry. About a hundred years before the Founding, the northern Saxon kingdoms came under Viking rule. Could Rowena's family have fled north, to the safety of the independent kingdom of Strathclyde? Perhaps. Let's move on.

Sweet Hufflepuff, from valley broad

Helga Hufflepuff is... actually not confirmed as Welsh. Okay, she's Welsh in the Wizarding World of Harry Potter, but as a non-narrative source is up for debate. If you assume that moor, glen, valley, and fen are intended to point directly at their homelands, then yes, she's from The Valleys in South Wales. But... y'know, 'valley' is a pretty generic term.

There's also her name. Helga is a Scandinavian name, no ifs, no buts. Wherever she lived, Helga has Viking ancestry.

So could she be a Viking in Wales? Um... not really! The Danelaw was separated from Wales by English Mercia. The region was the last to be conquered during the near-fall of Wessex, and the first to be reclaimed. And, Wales was British, not Saxon - it wasn't even part of those squabbles!

I think the most harmonious option is the one I suggested elsewhere - that Helga's family also fled the Vikings, though they were of Viking descent. This is becoming a hint that the Norse were very anti-wizard - and there might actually be more evidence for that!

Look at Durmstrang. It was founded in Scandinavia, but by a Bulgarian, not a local. It's the only school that teaches the Dark Arts. It also flatly refuses to accept Muggleborns. What I'm wondering is whether Durmstrang was actually set up as a pseudo-military establishment - a guard to watch against the violence of the Muggle Norse, and to protect the few Norse wizards and witches who escaped them.

Okay, let's leave that for now and move onto our most mysterious Founder:

Shrewd Slytherin, from fen

The Fens are in eastern England, but 'fen' itself is also a generic term for swamp. If we assume that the geographical terms are supposed to be capitalised (the Moors, the Glens, the Valleys, the Fens), then Slytherin is from the east, Godric from the south, Helga from the west, and Rowena from the north - all very neat and tidy.

The other theory out there is that he's Irish, Ireland having a fair amount of bog-land ('bog' wouldn't scan, and 'fen' is a near-synonym). That would give us English-Scottish-Welsh-Irish for the Founders, all very neat.

But... Salazar is a Portugese name. In fact, it's a Portugese surname, not a first name at all. So what in the world is it doing on a Saxon or Irish wizard?

Hence what Scapegrace dubbed the 'al-Salazar theory' - that Slytherin isn't British at all, but from Iberia. It would make sense of his name, and also highlight him as separate from the other three - which, in the end, he was.

There are other ideas pointing to Salazar as a traveller. He's friends with a basilisk, which were invented in Greece (according to a chocolate frog card, of all things). He also has a wand made of snakewood, which as I said before, exists only in the Americas and Australia. Hmm... side-thought, there's a Feathered Serpent in Mesoamerican mythology which was worshipped from about the turn of the BC/AD years. That's a thousand years before Slytherin lived. Is it possible that the basilisk horn in Salazar's wand comes from Quetzalcoatl - that the Feathered Serpent was his first contact with basilisks, and led to his decision to breed his own?

Coming back to the point... there are wetlands in Iberia, but it's not exactly known for it. I think the most likely option is that Salazar came into Britain by way of either the Fens or Ireland (and indeed stayed there a while, so he could be said to be 'from' them). Either would be a good origin from a geographical perspective - coming via the Fens would mean he lived in the (former) Danelaw, meaning we have a Saxon-Welsh-Scottish-Viking setup, while Ireland would feed the anti-Viking story by letting him help drive them out.

Al-Salazar is a stretch. It's meant to be a stretch. I'm almost positive Rowling just liked the word and used it for her evil wizard, who was probably from the Fens. But there's just enough ambiguity for me to push my own version. ^_~

hS
Hufflepuff & more. by Huinesoron on 2017-11-21 16:51:00 UTC Reply

1/ I know Helga is Welsh, but her name is literally Helga - she's of Scandinavian extraction, no doubt about it. ^^ My assumption is that her parents were raiders who settled; they would have been a bit 'out of the way', so to speak, since Wales wasn't really in the Viking invasion path, but wizards tend to live apart as it is. If there was some sort of disagreement with Viking Muggles - or even with Viking wizardom - they could easily run away to Wales.

2/ Well, far be it from me to argue with a source of any description (with one exception, see below ^~). New idea: what if the castle was built around Castle Ravenclaw? Or, more precisely - around Ravenclaw Tower? I don't see anything in that description to say that the Astronomy Tower can't be older than the rest of the building.

3/ Hmm... unfortunately Alohomora doesn't come to England until the 1600s, so that can't be one of Salazar's. Though apparently Open Sesame was a previous version, and comes from Arabian Nights. I can see him introducing that.

5/ Ah, the Danelaw. Of course you have to remember that the Anglo-Saxons weren't terribly fond of Rome either, so Saxon-Danish peaceful contact doesn't help with the spread of Latin. (It's probably worth pointing out that most inhabitants would barely have noticed whether the rulers were Saxon, Danish, or Norman - they were too busy being poor and hungry and using whatever words came their way.) But on the flip side, maybe wizards aren't as parochial. Maybe it was a fashion thing, spread by apparition in the BC years, and by the time Ollivander Prime (^_~) showed up, all the European wizards were using Latin wherever they were from.

hS