"Aren't that many wars"

Subject: "Aren't that many wars"
Author: Huinesoron
Posted on: 2017-11-16 13:46:00 UTC

-The First Battle in Beleriand (precedes the rise of the Sun, but is considered the start of the Wars of the Jewels; Morgoth's attack on Doriath after his return).

-Dagor-nuin-Giliath (also preceding the rising of the Sun; Feanor and company do a number on the Orcs, but Feanor dies).

-Capture of Maedhros (a small fight, but we have to assume he didn't go down without one).

-Battle of the Lammoth (fought under the Moon before the rising of the Sun; Fingolgin's first battle).

-Dagor Aglareb (the beginning of the Siege of Angband).

-The First Assault on Hithlum (a century later; fairly small).

-Glaurung's first outing (the first burning of Ard-galen; he was driven back, starting the Long Peace).

-Siege of the Haladin (rise of Haleth as Lady of the Second House; relieved by Caranthir).

-Attack on the Pass of Aglon (a small battle, beaten back by Maedhros and House Finarfin).

-The Dagor Bragollach (the Sudden Flame and the breaking of the Siege). Easily broken up into:

--The fall of Dorthonion.
--The sacking of Thargelion.
--The defence of Himring.
--The siege of Tol Sirion.
--The skirmish in the Fens of Serech.
--The battles of Barad Eithel.
--Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth.

-The fall of Tol Sirion (to Sauron).

-The raid on Brethil (a probe after Tol Sirion was taken; defeated by the Haladin).

-The destruction of Barahir's camp (by Sauron).

-The Second Assault on Hithlum (relieved by Cirdan from the sea).

-The driving of the Orcs from Beleriand (in preparation for the Nirnaeth).

-The Nirnaeth Arnoediad (Battle of Unnumbered tears; did not go well).

--Fingon's assault from the West (including Turgon's relief from Gondolin, and ultimately Fingon's death).
--The Easterlings' betrayal of Maedhros.
--The Dwarves against Glaurung.

-Fall of the Falas (Cirdan's havens).

-Battle of the Crossings of Taeglin.

-Battle of Tumhalad (death of Orodreth).

-Sack of Nargothrond.

-Battle of the Thousand Caves (death of Thingol at the hand of the dwarves).

-Battle of Sarn Athrad (Beren recaptures the Silmaril; includes ents!).

-Second Kinslaying and the sack of Doriath.

-The Fall of Gondolin.

-The Third Kinslaying and the sack of the Havens of Sirion.

-THE WAR OF WRATH, which can basically be as many battles as you want.

Is that enough for you...? ;)

Then you can do a Second Age expansion pack, which includes the War of the Elves and Sauron, the various Numenorean wars, and everything down to the War of the Last Alliance... yeah, Middle-earth: Total War could be a three-part series without breaking a sweat (four, if you let the War of the Ring stand apart from the rest of the Third Age).

hS

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Amazon making Middle-earth TV series. by Huinesoron on 2017-11-14 10:05:00 UTC Reply

It's official: Amazon will be making a Middle-earth TV series. But it's not going to be The Lord of the Rings; the press release is very clear that they're looking elsewhere for their stories:

"We... are thrilled to be taking The Lord of the Rings fans on a new epic journey in Middle Earth.”

“We are delighted that Amazon, with its longstanding commitment to literature, is the home of the first-ever multi-season television series for The Lord of the Rings,” said Matt Galsor, a representative for the Tolkien Estate and Trust and HarperCollins. “Sharon and the team at Amazon Studios have exceptional ideas to bring to the screen previously unexplored stories based on J.R.R. Tolkien’s original writings.”

Set in Middle Earth, the television adaptation will explore new storylines preceding J.R.R. Tolkien’sThe Fellowship of the Ring.

(Emphasis mine.)

So what story are they planning to tell? Something that precedes the War of the Ring - if we take them at their word, something that precedes Bilbo's famous party. I have seen a comment that it "must be" something from Silm/UT, since the Tolkien Estate doesn't have the movie rights to Hobbit/LotR any more and therefore wouldn't have been involved, but I think that's probably wrong - the TV rights look likely to be separate to the film ones. So what will it be? In lieu of actual information, here are my top five guesses for what they could do.

(The honorary 6th place goes to 'The Hobbit', and the connected story of the Fall of Erebor. It would fit the bill, but I don't think it's likely. Not so soon after the movies.)

5: The Silmarillion

To be clear: the only way Amazon have gotten hold of the Silm is by tying Christopher Tolkien to a tree and running away giggling. But it's going to be the title on everyone's lips, so I thought I'd best discuss it.

The Silm would make a great 'Game of Elven Thrones' series. You could do the Fall of the Noldor, with all that delicious infighting; or you could start at the Dagor Bragollach, and focus your series on the collapse of Beleriand. The big downside is that there's no protagonist - not unless you go super dark and make a Sons of Feanor series (yikes). The best other option would be to start very late - with the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. Then you can focus on the tales of Turin and Tuor, and feed into the Fall of Gondolin and Doriath.

Things to look out for: Dark & brooding Turin, cameos by Galadriel and Sauron, significantly enhanced roles for the women (which isn't a bad thing; Melian and Idril could do a lot in their respective stories).

Potential spinoff: 'Beren and Luthien' is probably the best option, if they start at the Nirnaeth. It's backstory for Elwing, and also a neatly self-contained story. Also it has its own book these days, so bonus!

Chance of happening: Snowball in Orodruin.

4: The Fall of Numenor

This is a good one, because it ties directly into the LotR story. The One Ring, Sauron, the Nazgul - all the baddies we know and hate are around. It has Elendil and Isildur, and multiple huge battles - the capture of Sauron, the fall itself, the War of the Last Alliance. There is a partial movie treatment by Helge Fauskanger of Ardalambion that shows how it could look.

But... it's all from the Silm and Unfinished Tales, so see previous comments about Christopher Tolkien. I think he'd be more likely to let go of this one, since Numenor has always stood a little apart from the main body of the legendarium. But not by much.

Things to look out for: Pharazon's fall to the dark as an early plotline. Significant buildup of Isildur (of "'s Heir" fame) at the expense of his family. Thranduil played as close to being Legolas as possible. Worryingly suspect interpretation of 'Black Numenoreans'.

Potential spinoff: 'Aldarion and Erendis' is a Numenor story from Unfinished Tales, but it's a bit bleak. It might be better to tap into the Shadow of Spinoff fanbase and do the fall of Eregion, with Celebrimbor.

Chance of happening: Roughly equal to that of a ship making it through the Shadowy Seas to Valinor.

3: The Rise of Rohan

An excellent story to tell. It uses locations we already know (Gondor, Rohan), lets you use orcs as the villains, and doesn't have too much magic to strain the budget. It's also partly from the Appendices, with the rest being in Unfinished Tales - CT's iron grip on the Silm wouldn't have to slacken an inch. And the Ride of Eorl would be fantastic.

The big problem? It's not a long story. Orcs attack western Gondor - Cirion the Steward calls for aid - it looks like it won't come - it comes. It would work as a standalone film or single season, not as a multi-season epic.

Things to look out for: Eorl Lord of the Mark and Cirion Steward of Gondor as our two protagonists. Also Eorl's suspiciously Eowyn-esque female costar.

Potential spinoff: Probably another story from the histories of Gondor and Rohan. The Kinstrife in Gondor would be good, as would the time of Helm Hammerhand in Rohan (so long as he doesn't turn into a Ringwraith...).

Chance of happening: What's the chance of a messenger to the Mark making it both there and back? Roughly that.

2: The Strider

Assuming we take them at their literal word, this is the most likely option. Aragorn's youth lets you visit all the lands we already know, explore his romance with Arwen, and (since it takes place between The Hobbit and LotR) watch the buildup of Sauron's forces prior to the War of the Ring.

The big problem? There's no war. The Misty Mountains were cleared out by the Beornings, and Mordor and Isengard didn't march to open war until LotR. The only way you could get pitched battles is by taking the story down to Harad to fight the Corsairs of Umbar. (Or by just making stuff up, I guess...)

Things to look out for: Cameos from young versions of every member of the Fellowship or other significant LotR character, except Gandalf (who will make occasional appearances as a mentor figure) and Legolas (who legions of fanwriters have shown us will be Aragorn's bestie).

Potential spinoff: I would love to see them jump to a completely different genre and make a lighthearted comedy about Bilbo trying to raise his young cousin Frodo. Oh, the hijinks that would ensue...!

Chance of happening: The odds of a Ranger of the North finding the right path.

1: The Fall of Arnor

This... would be perfect. I've previously written a brief treatment of how this could be made as a film trilogy (Middle-earth: Fall of Kings), and it would work just as well as a series - perhaps even better, as you wouldn't have to chop the story up as much to get it to fit.

It's the tale of the fall of the North Kingdom before the Witch-King of Angmar. It has romance, betrayal, politics, war, nemeses, stupid heroes and scheming villains, and even a dose of prophecy. It even has hobbits - the only item on this list to canonically include them. Finally, it draws exclusively on the Appendices, so no need to crack open UT.

Things to look out for: Gandalf and Legolas cameos, along with at least one hobbit named Baggins for Gandalf to chat to. An Arvedui-Firiel-Earnil love triangle. And, for Season One only, the tragically doomed King Ondoher of Gondor and his sons.

Potential spinoff: Anything from the Rohan section would work (or the Rohan story itself), but I'd pin my money on the division of Arnor into three. It's written as fairly amicable in the books, but you could easily spin a war out of it. Alternately, the fall of Cardolan takes place a few hundred years before this time, and would be stuffed full of hobbits.

Chance of happening: Same as the chance of a prophecy being accurate. "Not by the hand of man will he fall..."

So that's me, but I bet I've missed something super obvious. So what is it?

hS

Much, MUCH bigger news! by Huinesoron on 2017-11-15 17:56:00 UTC Reply

Christopher Tolkien has resigned as director of the Tolkien Estate.

This was a genuine, out-loud "Oh my God" moment for me (one of... about three that I remember having ever, in a fandom context). I would never have expected CT to step down.

This also throws the question of what Amazon could potentially have gotten their ~~grubby little paws~~ hands on wide open. The TORn article says it was just the LotR rights for TV (which would include the Appendices and swing the dial towards my guesses 2 and 1), but I'm not sure how certain they are on that.

This is huge. This is... really shocking.

hS

Does this mean, First Age: Total War is possible? by darklordaakmal on 2017-11-16 13:09:00 UTC Reply

Granted, there aren't that many wars in First Age of the Sun, but Total War is about making your own history.

"Aren't that many wars" by Huinesoron on 2017-11-16 13:46:00 UTC Reply

-The First Battle in Beleriand (precedes the rise of the Sun, but is considered the start of the Wars of the Jewels; Morgoth's attack on Doriath after his return).

-Dagor-nuin-Giliath (also preceding the rising of the Sun; Feanor and company do a number on the Orcs, but Feanor dies).

-Capture of Maedhros (a small fight, but we have to assume he didn't go down without one).

-Battle of the Lammoth (fought under the Moon before the rising of the Sun; Fingolgin's first battle).

-Dagor Aglareb (the beginning of the Siege of Angband).

-The First Assault on Hithlum (a century later; fairly small).

-Glaurung's first outing (the first burning of Ard-galen; he was driven back, starting the Long Peace).

-Siege of the Haladin (rise of Haleth as Lady of the Second House; relieved by Caranthir).

-Attack on the Pass of Aglon (a small battle, beaten back by Maedhros and House Finarfin).

-The Dagor Bragollach (the Sudden Flame and the breaking of the Siege). Easily broken up into:

--The fall of Dorthonion.
--The sacking of Thargelion.
--The defence of Himring.
--The siege of Tol Sirion.
--The skirmish in the Fens of Serech.
--The battles of Barad Eithel.
--Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth.

-The fall of Tol Sirion (to Sauron).

-The raid on Brethil (a probe after Tol Sirion was taken; defeated by the Haladin).

-The destruction of Barahir's camp (by Sauron).

-The Second Assault on Hithlum (relieved by Cirdan from the sea).

-The driving of the Orcs from Beleriand (in preparation for the Nirnaeth).

-The Nirnaeth Arnoediad (Battle of Unnumbered tears; did not go well).

--Fingon's assault from the West (including Turgon's relief from Gondolin, and ultimately Fingon's death).
--The Easterlings' betrayal of Maedhros.
--The Dwarves against Glaurung.

-Fall of the Falas (Cirdan's havens).

-Battle of the Crossings of Taeglin.

-Battle of Tumhalad (death of Orodreth).

-Sack of Nargothrond.

-Battle of the Thousand Caves (death of Thingol at the hand of the dwarves).

-Battle of Sarn Athrad (Beren recaptures the Silmaril; includes ents!).

-Second Kinslaying and the sack of Doriath.

-The Fall of Gondolin.

-The Third Kinslaying and the sack of the Havens of Sirion.

-THE WAR OF WRATH, which can basically be as many battles as you want.

Is that enough for you...? ;)

Then you can do a Second Age expansion pack, which includes the War of the Elves and Sauron, the various Numenorean wars, and everything down to the War of the Last Alliance... yeah, Middle-earth: Total War could be a three-part series without breaking a sweat (four, if you let the War of the Ring stand apart from the rest of the Third Age).

hS

More! More! MORE!!! Mwahahahahah!!! by darklordaakmal on 2017-11-17 10:07:00 UTC Reply

It may be a lot like Attila: Total War. The Sons of FEanor were in a very good position besieging Angband. However as more of Morgoth's army are pushing out of Angband, and fertility/prosperity drops, the elves and men began to suffer and have to migrate away. Morgoth should either never leave Angband or be scripted never to die until The War of Wrath. Here, I think CA should be allowed to represent the host of Valinor as only elven troops instead of the Valar as special unkillable units. Although I would not object to see them unleash terror upon the Morgoth's forces.

Also, First Age: Total War should not focus only as the Elves. That is why I thought there weren't as many wars in the First Age, most of it are Elves and Men vs Morgoth Country. I want to be an Easterling nation who decide to worship Eru later as Morgoth began to make more of my people as orcs instead of the enemy. Or swarthy men who decide to worship Mahal, as we gained the skill of smithing from the dwarves. Both will cause conflicts somehow, and we may have to fight to ~~gain more lands~~ allow our chosen way of life.

In short, the starting points and some events should follow the lore closely, but the details can vary wildly.

A little ahistory for you. by Huinesoron on 2017-11-17 12:26:00 UTC Reply

This is a rough composite of Beleriand and the lands to the east immediately prior to the Bragollach, divided into each race's 'natural' areas. Much earlier than this, and you lose the proper placing of the Edain; any later, and you have to deal with Morgoth on the rampage.

(Minor ahistory: this map shows eastern Ard-Galen as held by Easterlings, who wouldn't appear for another 40-odd years. It also shows the Dor Firn-i-Guinar, where Beren and Luthien lived, as held by the Edain, which isn't true yet.)

I haven't bothered to fill in the region we know as Arnor; it would probably be a patchwork of kingdoms from various Mortal armies. So you'd have Easterlings in the north (which would let you remove them from Ard-Galen, and remnant Edain in the southern reaches. We know that Bree and Dunland were populated by relatives of the Haladin, for instance, and we could probably slot some Hadorian relatives up in the Vales of Anduin (which I have down as Nandorian). I've also left a few territories unclaimed and (in south Beleriand) oversized; if you want to pay me millions of pounds to complete the game, I'll be only too happy to fill them in. ^_~

You can play as any of the races, though each probably have their own advantages and disadvantages. Cirdan, for instance, would have a distinct edge in ships. The Ents are an interesting entity; I think they'd have to be a weird variant game, perhaps being unable to attack except directly into a territory that invaded them. It's all theorycrafting anyway, so it's not all that important.

The game starts towards the end of the Long Peace. There's a network of fealties that makes most wars more risky than they're worth: if House Feanor attacks the Edain in Dorthonion, for instance, they are liable to be attacked by House Finarfin in retaliation (as well as the other Edain). But it's possible! Truly excellent players will be able to expand their domains even in the time of peace. Angband, however, is inviolate: you probably simply can't attack it, or if you can, it's unbeatable through weight of numbers.

After a few turns(?), Morgoth attacks. (If you're playing as Morgoth, you start with a 'Glaurung timer' - how long until Glaurung is full-grown and you can launch your assault). He is extremely powerful, and would like to kill everything. As you say, this is going to whittle away at the Elves' forces and resources.

There are 'story' elements woven into the campaign, depending on certain triggers. If Dorthonion is taken by Morgoth while Doriath is still intact, it triggers the Quest of the Silmaril, which results in the death of certain characters (Finrod will die IF Tol Sirion is in Morgoth's hands AND Himlad has been taken by Morgoth at least once), and - a while later - the removal of the Girdle of Melian. It also triggers House Feanor's AI to start considering Kinslayings.

Some territories will gain cities only when others fall - the Havens of Sirion only get a city once the Falas is destroyed. The AI will offer and accept alliances based on various factors, as per game rules, but there are also trigger-based once - the false alliance between House Feanor and the Easterlings is probably sparked by the Feanorians beating back Morgoth, f'rex.

Morgoth, as you say, is unkillable - he can only be captured, and that only by Eonwe the Herald of Manwe. Eonwe can be triggered in various ways - conquering all of Morgoth's territory obviously has to do it, as does unifying a certain (large) percentage of the world, capturing a Silmaril (various methods available) and finding a suitable messenger... you could also capture all three Silmarils, or organise a conference of 'demi-divine' beings (if Melian, Treebeard, Durin, and Cirdan all occupy the same territory...). Precisely what Eonwe shows up with will depend on how he's summoned - he could arrive with the full Host of Valinor plus Vingilot, or he could show up by himself on a little boat. Then you have to have him present in a battle with Morgoth, and win...

And yes, there all sorts of possible conflict triggers. I'm not sure religion is a terribly useful one (it basically comes down to 'respect the Valar or worship Morgoth'), but you could come up with your own. Maybe Ents hate anyone who burns forest terrain. Maybe it's possible to trigger a Dwarven Civil War by allying with a nation that one of the three houses (Nogrod, Belegost, Khazad-dum) hates. Maybe sorcery is available, but every use of it sours any Good-aligned allies against you.

So yeah, it's viable. Weird, but viable.

hS

'unbeatable through weight of numbers' by Hardric on 2017-11-17 17:21:00 UTC Reply

hS, that's pretty much offering a challenge to players to 'do the impossible' (and reminds me of a AoM player who was fairly close of defeating Chronos without Gaia ... ;) ).

I still think it could work. by Huinesoron on 2017-11-17 19:21:00 UTC Reply

I put my fixed defences too far from the pit, which meant they didn't really come into play; and I didn't stockpile enough food (I think the only renewable resource). I also probably wasted too much of the depletable resources, so couldn't build as many siege engines as possible.

What I don't know is whether it's possible to beat him before Gaia awakens. My feeling is still that it can't be done - he's too slow to get down to the flat terrain. But never say never...!

Taking out Angband before the Bragollach would be physically possible, in that the game isn't coded against it. On the current sketchmap, what that would do is simple: it would send Morgoth scurrying to the ruins of Utumno, which would be far enough from Angband that no faction could physically reach both of them before the Bragollach. Unless you modded the game to change your starting locations... in which case you'd end up with a Horde led by Morgoth, who can't be killed without Eonwe. So you'd need to trigger one of the summoning conditions. Simples!

hS

Never doubted you could do that. by Hardric on 2017-11-17 20:22:00 UTC Reply

The wink had more to do with the fact I'd like to see you post a new, successful, attempt of taking down Chronos without needing his Mom to send him to bed without dinner.

Simples indeed. Although I'm sure at least one modder would try at least jst that. but hey, impossible challenges always attract players.

Too bad Creative Assembly didn't give tools to edit... by darklordaakmal on 2017-11-17 13:27:00 UTC Reply

campaign maps. There are many players of Fourth Age:Total War, mod of Rome: Total War, and Third Age: Total War, mod of Medieval 2: Total War. There are a lot of Total War fans waiting for Tolkienverse with their wallets open, CA just need to secure the rights and build a less buggy game.

Losing the last city may not be the end of the faction. They can be a horde, moving around the map. Oh, do you think there can be mercenaries? Humans may take the job, I think Beren was one.

Hordes would work. by Huinesoron on 2017-11-17 14:22:00 UTC Reply

It might even be the best way to introduce the Mortal factions: they could be hordes that can ally with the factions they meet, either co-occupying their territories or becoming mercenaries (depending on game design). You could even code it so that when defeated factions horde up, they are able to merge with allied hordes - so the remnants of Doriath and Gondolin could become one people, and go take up residence in Cirdan's Havens of Sirion.

As for mercenaries - it depends on what you mean by that. In the sense of 'soldiers who'll fight for you if you pay the most', it's certainly viable, though it might work best if they come from one of the existing factions. So if you're friendly with the Dwarves, you can pay a Dwarven formation to act as mercenaries for you (probably appearing out of nowhere rather than stealing one of your 'friend's' armies). If, however, you mean guerilla fighters, like Beren was - units that can infiltrate enemy territory and damage it without resorting to open battle - ... then that's also viable. ^_^ In fact, it's a repeated theme in Middle-earth history. What you would probably have is Hero units who can act as guerillas - at the cost of taking them away from doing other stuff. Finrod is excellent at sneaking past anything short of Sauron, but using him to do so leaves Nargothrond without its king...

hS

Wow. by Neshomeh on 2017-11-16 03:54:00 UTC Reply

The crazy thing is, according to the article, this has actually been coming since about July-August. Which makes sense; as they point out, it must've taken a heck of a lot of doing to make the transition.

I didn't realize Christopher Tolkien was 93. I'm amazed at his dedication. I hope he'll have a happy retirement.

Just... wow.

~Neshomeh

Oh, yeah. by Huinesoron on 2017-11-16 11:10:00 UTC Reply

His prologue to the Beren and Luthien book specifically mentions that it is "(preemptively)" the last book he'll be putting out based on his father's work. We assumed it was just because he's as old as Smeagol, but it was released in June, so he'd probably already made the decision.

hS

Welp. by Iximaz on 2017-11-15 21:51:00 UTC Reply

If Christopher's stepping down, who's going to be managing the estate now?

And I shudder to think of the endless stream of reboots that will soon come out. I thought after the Hobbit movies the Tolkien Estate said "aw heck naw we're not letting you mess around with this world anymore", but now... I'm kinda scared.

Middle Earth: Shadow of Mordor canon when

Good question! by Huinesoron on 2017-11-16 11:01:00 UTC Reply

It's entirely possible that CT remains the Literary Executor for Tolkien's estate; I don't know enough about the law to say whether that's likely. So he may still have a decent say in things.

According to the UK government, The Tolkien Estate Ltd currently has six officers: Cathleen Blackburn as secretary (a solicitor and the other executor), Steven Maier as solicitor, and four directors: Priscilla Tolkien (JRRT's daughter and youngest child), Simon Tolkien (CT's oldest son, the one who was briefly disowned over liking the Jackson movies), Baillie Tolkien (CT's second/current wife), Michael Tolkien (specifically the eldest son of JRRT's second son Michael).

I know Priscilla was involved in the lawsuit against Warner Brothers over online gambling, so it's possible she'll take the lead; on the other hand, she's nearly 90 herself, so perhaps not. I remember rumours from years back that Adam Tolkien - CT's younger son - was going to take his place after he died, but he's not on the board (and Simon is). So honestly, who knows? But it's a Tolkien, that's for sure.

The one thing this can't lead to is reboots - because the movie rights to LotR & The Hobbit aren't with the Estate anyway! Warner Brothers could make as many movies out of those as they wanted. What it could lead to is an opening up of other areas of the canon to ~~exploitation~~ ~~housing developments~~ ~~orc-work~~ ... stuff. Yeah, I'm with you on the shuddering, to be honest.

hS
Whatever they do... by Neshomeh on 2017-11-16 03:58:00 UTC Reply

They may make their adaptations... they may make their reboots... but they can never take our canon!

~Neshomeh

Yeahbut... by Huinesoron on 2017-11-16 11:08:00 UTC Reply

... if [tosses coin] Brandon Sanderson is licensed by the Tolkien Estate to write "The New Shadow: An Official Lord of the Rings Sequel", does that become part of the canon or not?

Related questions: is And Another Thing... H2G2 canon? Is The Force Awakens Star Wars canon? Is Deep Space Nine Star Trek canon? Are the final three Wheel of Time novels canon? Heck, is The Silmarillion even canon, since it was compiled by CT from wildly disparate versions of the narrative (and in one place completely made up - the death of Thingol)?

Also, Mel Gibson looks really disheartened right before the guy next to him joins in. You can see his mouth start to close and his face fall - "aw, Scotstralian shucks, I guess that wasn't as inspiring as I thought it would be..."

hS

Crawling Chaos. by Hardric on 2017-11-15 21:27:00 UTC Reply

I'm quite behind in my Lord of the Rings reading, but I know that's a really big thing, and not just because Silmarillion related stuff is not that much impossible anymore. Now to see what the future holds...

(Yes, the Thrall Masters are perfect fodder units. Black Numenoreans are also good, Snow trolls too, and Sorcerers offer interesting opportunities...)

Mm-hmm. by Huinesoron on 2017-11-16 11:24:00 UTC Reply

Christopher has been for Middle-earth like some people have historically seen the Permission Givers for the PPC: an implacable force bent on stopping anyone from adding anything to the canon except that which completely complies with our wishes. We, of course, aren't really like that (O:D), but CT was.

Now... the floodgates are opening. Who knows what's coming.

~

Sorcerers! I've never actually had much luck with them; by the time I have the resources to buy them, my archers are usually a better option. So how can you use them to best effect?

All sorcerers come with two standard 'buff/debuff' spells: one that strengthens your soldiers, one that slows the enemy. Then you can choose (at a cost) one of three powerful spells: one to freeze the enemy in place, one to drain their health and turn them into wights, and one to drop a rain of exploding corpses on them (Angmar is metal, folks).

I don't think there's all that much value in Corpse Rain. Provided your enemy is dense enough to stay put, it can do a nice chunk of damage, but the cost of temple+sorcerer+Corpse Rain+upgrade could probably be better spent on a couple of rangers and a catapult. Yes, the sorcerer will regenerate its acolytes over time - but in that time the archers will have done even more damage.

Soul Freeze is nice; you can use it to buy time for your army to get into position, or immobilise a powerful unit you don't have the counter available for. And Well of Souls is nifty against weak enemy units - you can convert them into undead units on your side! But neither of them are really that powerful compared to straightforward attacking.

As for the buffs? They might be the best option. Slow the enemy cavalry to let your pikemen get in front of them; strengthen your Thrall Masters so they can hold their own against the units they're meant to counter. (My Wolf Riders always die to archers, it's embarassing.) But again: by the time you've got a Temple of Twilight online, you shouldn't be relying on Thralls anyway!

So... what's to be done with them? Any ideas?

hS

Well, my experience of online is at best limited. by Hardric on 2017-11-16 18:24:00 UTC Reply

And not helped by the fact I can't find disks of the extension and could not play it for years (changing house several times to follow your father's jobs can play havoc with your things). But when I used Sorcerers I had indeed a preference for plain but effective buffs/debuffs, with Soul Freeze as a great way to disrupt yor enemy's battle line, and sometimes Wells of Souls.

And I think the support is worth it. Sure, that opinion is also influeced by other games, but support well used is always better than pure brute force. Well used, the latterr is ood too, but good combination is in my opinion superior.

I think... by Huinesoron on 2017-11-17 16:18:00 UTC Reply

... my lackluster view of buffs is probably because the first place I encountered them and cared was Age of Mythology, where you get to use each God Power exactly once. Sure, it's lovely that you can turn your army's skin to bronze and be immune to damage - but when it only lasts for 30 seconds, you either have to hit something critical or bring overwhelming force anyway. Yeah, it's not something I've ever learnt to use effectively. (Plus, y'know, AI players don't really need high-level play to beat in big strategy-type games...)

hS

To be fair... by [EvilAI]UBEROverlord on 2017-11-18 19:26:00 UTC Reply

Not every god power in Age of Mythology is single use. Atlanteans who worship Gaia have multiple powers that are multiple use. I just finished a game last night and had 11 uses of four powers. Though to be fair I think Atlanteans are borderline overpowered anyways. I usually do not care to play them.

That's very true. by Huinesoron on 2017-11-19 18:02:00 UTC Reply

Though I don't remember many of those being buffs per se... [Checks] No, the only buff under Atlantis is Prometheus' Valor power (turning units into heroes), plus maybe Hyperion's Chaos (turning enemy units to attack-all). Neither are available to Gaia's worshippers; she just gets a bunch of summons.

Plus, of course, the Atlanteans are from the expansion. First impressions count... :)

(I love playing as Atlantis, because 'few powerful units' has always been my preferred playstyle in everything. I'm currently trying to train myself out of it in Civ 4, so hopefully that will roll over to everything else.)

hS

I'd copunt Vortex as a most amazing buff. by Hardric on 2017-11-20 16:07:00 UTC Reply

I mean, come on, the ability to move your entire army to any point of the map without any risk of interception? That's one heck of a buff.

I can also sympathize with the love for Atlantis, that's the very sort of thing I like in an army(ex.: Foehn Revolt in RA 2 mod Mental Omega). And paradoxally, I like Rushing, despite a tendancy to Turtle/Boom when I'm not concentrating on a rush.

(I'd also like your opinion on Chinese. Personaly, I think they're quite interesting to play too.)

Responses by [EvilAI]UBEROverlord on 2017-11-20 22:46:00 UTC Reply

Vortex doesn't technically fit the definition of buff. But it is a good power. Most of Atlantis' powers are solid. I just don't like the 0 dedicated heroes. It does give more flexibility sure, but it means they are overall weaker against myth units. You would need to use swarm tactics to have a good chance.

On the Chinese, they have some interesting abilities, but I haven't gotten to play much of them myself.

I think you underestimate Atlantean heroes. by Hardric on 2017-11-21 16:14:00 UTC Reply

I never had problems using them against myth creatures, and to be honest Hersirs does have a swarm aspect too in my opinion. Though I'll admit it could be influenced by the fact I mainly play Oranos, letting me with either healing from Okeanos, or the cheaper/regenerating combo of Prometheus and Hyperion. And even heroic Citizens can have a potential use. Beside Oranos, I prefer play with Hades, Ra, Odin and Fu Xi (guess having a brother snatch the disks I found on garage sales did have a plus side...).

Chinese look interesting to play for me, with the monks for constant healing, the cavalry... I also like the fifth mission of the campaign. Just a battle of your units against enemy regiments, but I like it.
Right now, I'm playing as Zeus. by Huinesoron on 2017-11-21 13:29:00 UTC Reply

And I hate him. If the Greeks are the generic nation, then Zeus is their generickest god.

I was struggling all through the first three ages, mostly because the Norse decided yet again to march across the entire map and harass me. At times, I've actually had Egyptian, Norse, and Atlantean troops all in the same place, fighting each other while trying to knock down my walls.

The Mythic Age has been a little better. I had to use Underworld Passage to launch an attack on the Norse after they started building both a Wonder and a Titan Gate, but the combination of Mymidons (Zeus's special infantry) and Gold Colossi managed to bring them both down. I even got to sneak a couple of villagers through to build a fortress and harass them, putting them out of the running until I get a proper army up there.

But Egypt is still harassing me. I've managed to bottleneck them into one location (which holds two gold deposits - I have killed so many labourers), but can't drive them back. I'm stuck on two town centres, so I don't have the space to build a proper army. I'm actually considering attacking Atlantis next - they keep running away from me, so clearly I scare them. Or perhaps I'll throw down a temple in the Norse base and start churning out Colossi to smash them... anyway, it's been a frustrating game.

As to the Chinese: I'm still running on my old game CDs! Until I get tired with what's there, I see no reason to shell out for a second copy of a game that still works, and Tale of the Dragon only works with the Steam edition. I quite like the theory behind the Monks, though in AoE and Galactic Battlegrounds I never got much use out of conversion. More interesting is the fact that China can deploy two amphibious units - and followers of Shennong can deploy both. That seems like it could majorly shift the balance of islands maps away from the Norse.

hS

Okay, I take it back. by Huinesoron on 2017-11-21 20:26:00 UTC Reply

It turns out Zeus is actually a pretty good extreme late game god, because the Myrmidons are actually really strong! Six or eight Myrmis can back up a couple of siege weapons and take out half a base.

I shall try to add the Zeus report to my blog in the not too distant future.

hS

And it's up! by Huinesoron on 2017-11-23 15:11:00 UTC Reply

Age of Mythology: Zeus, in which I start out in an intolerable grind, and turn it into a thorough stomp.

hS

Duck, i'm glad the EE changed that. by Hardric on 2017-11-23 17:54:00 UTC Reply

Don't get me wrong, that was great for you, but... Dunno, just Bolting Nidhogg feels wrong. Also, happy to see that series again? Ready to do the final rotation? ~~Please don't give up before Hades is done.~~

Also... Even during Antiquity, walls were not enough to keep people away, Trump. Meditate on that, if you can.

I dunno, I kind of liked it. by Huinesoron on 2017-11-23 20:27:00 UTC Reply

Bolt is actually a pretty weak power - there's very few cases where killing /one/ unit will make a difference. It's useful very early (ie, when the enemy sends their free Classical myth unit into your defenceless base), but after that it's kind of pointless. Letting it kill the Nidhogg or the Son of Osiris gives it a chance to be very powerful - but only if you save it to the point where it's otherwise useless on the off-chance that you'll need it.

(The EE, according to the wiki, nerfed it to do 2% of the Nidhogg's health. I think we can all agree that's way too weak.)

I do intend to round out the series - but no promises on when! This game was played while Kaitlyn was working night shifts, so I had a lot of time to kill. I do quite like the Evil Gods in general, though- they seem to be the ones who vary most from the standard mold - so it might be fairly quick.

(Atlantis led by Trump, huh? I can see that. 'No, the island's not sinking, /you're/ sinking!')

hS

2% is indeed ridiculious. by Hardric on 2017-11-24 17:07:00 UTC Reply

Maybe they could have tried finding some middle ground?

Anyway, I hope you enjoy the Evil God round, although Zeus, despite the genericness is supposed to be the 'unique' Greek god (only one with Hera).

That said... I was also thinking about you with the walls things. You did build a lot of them, after all (That said, I salute the pun of the sinking island).

I had forgotten... by [EvilAI]UBEROverlord on 2017-11-20 00:50:00 UTC Reply

You mentioned Buffs specifically. Though Gaia's Forest does provide a buff to wood gathering for that particular forest.

I always preferred the Egyptians myself, Isis was the first deity I had competitive success with. I always liked the Norse, though I am not very good with them, I am no good with Rushing. I'm more of a Turtle/Boom style player

You play any of the new Chinese ones from the second expansion?

True about the AI players in general. by Hardric on 2017-11-17 17:17:00 UTC Reply

(Except when tey spam/flood you thanks to unlimited money.)

Although I'll admit my respect for buffs/debuffs and the likes comes from... RPGs, especially the main Atlus lines, Persona and Shin Megami Tensei, be it from personal experience or through LPs I watched. Status effects and buffs/debuffs are pretty much indispensable, especially in higher difficulty, and you always feel the difference between use and misuse there.

RTS with this aspect and the microgestion can also be seen with Warcraft and Starcraft.

Reeeally now? by Neshomeh on 2017-11-14 14:13:00 UTC Reply

Hm.

I guess I'd like to see the story of the Rohirrim, myself. I dig the pseudo-Norse aesthetic, and also horses.

I wonder, given the plural "storylines," whether they might not do a different thing each season? And seasons can be pretty short these days, so it wouldn't necessarily have to be spun out ridiculously.

I dunno, I'm kinda wiped out with people messing with Middle-earth. Probably because so much of it has been awful. Don't want to get my hopes up, but I'll judge it when I see it.

~Neshomeh

An anthology? by Huinesoron on 2017-11-14 14:40:00 UTC Reply

Could be, but of course that means they'd have to have the rights to even more of the Books. Which means they have to try and cross the bridge before Christopher smashes it with his staff (I assume Christopher Tolkien is basically Gandalf at this point, right?).

The trouble with the Rohirrim is that they... kind of don't have any stories. Eorl rides, the early Rohirrim conduct an unsuccessful ethnic purge against the Dunlendings, Helm turns into a snowman, and then eventually the War of the Ring happens. You could do a series about the Battles of the Fords of Isen, and the very first skirmishes with Saruman - ending with Eomer being exiled, and potentially even his hunting of a party of orcs to the borders of Fangorn - but other than that...

I think a Middle-earth adaptation that gets away from the best-loved parts could be a breath of fresh air. We've seen time and again how Hollywood/Gameywood (that's a place, right?) deal with the Quest of Erebor and the War of the Ring, and the answer is: not well. They also suck at accurately interpreting Mordor (Shadow of Whatever). I wouldn't trust them to get Beleriand anything close to right, either.

But Arthedain? Numenor? Angmar? Umbar? We know so little about what those places were like. As long as they don't muck about with the broad scope of history (as Jackson's dead Nazgul did), keep the 'magic' to what the Books discuss (as Shadow of Murderdeath didn't), and make an effort to remember Tolkien's overarching themes of a) the fading of the old ways and b) small things being the greatest of all (both of which would be perfectly shown by Helge's Westerness or my Fall of Kings), they can do a lot without 'breaking' Middle-earth canon.

Though if they do any unironic 'we have to adopt evil weapons to defeat evil!' stuff, I shall be bitterly disappointed. I might even scowl at them.

hS

... Have to admit, 1 would be really cool. by Hardric on 2017-11-14 11:58:00 UTC Reply

Arnor and Angmar are two places I'm really curious about in Middle Earth, and... Okay part of it also comes from the Battle for Middle Earth expansion with Angmar (Always thought it was a waste of not creating a proper Arnor faction for the game. Or that GW couldn't be bothered to properly supports an Arnor with more than one type of troops, or a better Angmar).

Still, Arnor and Angmar are always those two places I'm looking for when I search for game mods and contents related to Lord of the Rings. I'd like to see quality content about them. ~~Final death to the Half-Nazgul~~

(Well, that and Black Numenoreans, and just Numenor actually, but like you said, they're taking the Silmarillion over Christopher's Tolkien destroyed ghost. At a minimum. Must be one of the reasons I really like the Angmar faction in BfME, come to think of that.)

Rise of the Witch-king! by Huinesoron on 2017-11-14 12:47:00 UTC Reply

I love that expansion. ^_^ I think Angmar is actually a better faction than it seems at first glance. When I play as them (single-player - I don't know if there even /is/ a functional multiplayer...), I find that once I can get a few Dark Rangers with upgraded bows, I can usually hold my own. The Thrall Masters and Sorcerers are excellent for rapid-response, too - keep a few of them hanging around, and you can beat back cavalry or infantry alike without having to wait for your counter-units to build. (They're also the best units in the game to regenerate: if you can keep the Thrall Master himself alive, you get a full army back by the next attack.)

I think Angmar is designed around early raiding: build four or so Thrall Masters and send them out to harass your enemy and keep them from getting off the ground. Then get your Rangers online as fast as you can, and use them to take out the enemy base. Don't get caught up in a long slog - Black Numenoreans and Snow Trolls are okay, but the other late units tend to die pretty easily. Especially Dire Wolves, for some reason.

Stepping away from the game, conceptually BfMEII Angmar is... dubious, but so are most of the other factions. Black Numenoreans really shouldn't be hanging about in the icy North (they were based in Umbar, down in Harad), but neither should Rivendell be fielding a massive cavalry army, or the Goblins of the Misty Mountains(?) be sending out Fire Drakes(???). (I will not hear a word said against the Dwarves, though. "Let's go building what we can build... away we go, away we go...")

As for Arnor, it is a shame, but on the flip-side they would reasonably have the same army as Gondor. You'd have to make a few modifications - take out the Rohirrim, add Hobbits - but they really shouldn't be much different from their southern cousins.

For my part, I really love the names in the last days of the North Kingdom. I can really get into a war between Arthedain, Cardolan, and Rhudaur; the transition from gleaming Annuminas to utilitarian Fornost is properly evocative; and if you speak a little Elvish, the fact that the last rulers of Arthedain are 'Last-King' and 'Mortal Maid' is incredibly tragic. It's much more exciting than Gondor squabbling with Umbar and Rhun yet again.

Plus, the whole decline of the North is a direct counter to all those fantasy kingdoms which fade away only to be revived by the hidden king (Gondor included): Arnor falls, and its successor kingdom fails to restore it. In fact, Arnor never does rise again - when King Elessar takes the throne, it is over a Reunited Kingdom spanning both North and South. Arnor, for all its nobility, failed.

hS

Let's use its full name. by Novastorme on 2017-11-14 13:26:00 UTC Reply

Because, besides from being an awesome game, IIRC it also has the longest title for a video game.

The Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle Earth II: The Rise of the Witch-king

That's phenomenal isn't it?

It's glorious. by Huinesoron on 2017-11-14 13:32:00 UTC Reply

An IGN article from 2007 (here) does indeed put it at number one, and lists the full acronym. Of course, they don't get the capitalisation quite right - it should be TLotRTBfMEIITRotWK.

It's almost as bad as some old-fashioned novel titles:

The Fortunes and Misfortunes of the Famous Moll Flanders Who was born in Newgate, and during a life of continu'd Variety for Threescore Years, besides her Childhood, was Twelve Years a Whore, five times a Wife (whereof once to her brother) Twelve Years a Thief, Eight Years a Transported Felon in Virginia, at last grew Rich, liv'd Honest and died a Penitent

... or those very '60s album names:

My People Were Fair and Had Sky in Their Hair... But Now They're Content to Wear Stars on Their Brows

Amazing.

hS

I offer up the following Chumbawumba album title: by Scapegrace on 2017-11-14 17:37:00 UTC Reply

The Boy Bands Have Won, and All the Copyists and the Tribute Bands and the TV Talent Show Producers Have Won, If We Allow Our Culture to Be Shaped by Mimicry, Whether from Lack of Ideas or from Exaggerated Respect. You Should Never Try to Freeze Culture. What You Can Do Is Recycle That Culture. Take Your Older Brother's Hand-Me-Down Jacket and Re-Style It, Re-Fashion It to the Point Where It Becomes Your Own. But Don't Just Regurgitate Creative History, or Hold Art and Music and Literature as Fixed, Untouchable and Kept Under Glass. The People Who Try to 'Guard' Any Particular Form of Music Are, Like the Copyists and Manufactured Bands, Doing It the Worst Disservice, Because the Only Thing That You Can Do to Music That Will Damage It Is Not Change It, Not Make It Your Own. Because Then It Dies, Then It's Over, Then It's Done, and the Boy Bands Have Won.