You've missed a trick here.

Subject: You've missed a trick here.
Author: Huinesoron
Posted on: 2017-08-08 11:26:00 UTC

It's been a very long time since I've played AoEII, so I don't remember the details, but even if I'd never played it, I'd know you'd missed a perfect opportunity:

The Bronee. How close is it possible to get to a pure-cavalry nation of nomads with a tendency to fanaticism? 'Nomadic' might be the most difficult part... faster-moving resource gatherers? I'unno.

Also: the Marizu. Is conversion a thing in AoE? If so, I'm imagining a ridiculously specialised nation with near-free, near-instant conversion that has little choice but to build its armies by stealing the enemy's.

~

All right, I've gone this far, I'll take a look at what you wrote, too. ;)

Plort: I can sort of see the rapid-research angle, and I love the melee-damaging archer (it's the sort of unconventional thing we'd do), but I don't know why you've gone for cavalry? Excepting the herd at Kwenaya, we've never had a particular focus on horses. Rather, drawing on the PPC ethos, I'd imagine Plort being about stealth, rather than speed.

Equally, I'm confused by the lack of a navy. We're... it's an island civilisation. It lives by sending fleets to harry the Marizu coast. What led you to the idea of a naval-poor nation?

The S.E.: The standout feature of the Scholars is their amazing teamwork. But... while, as you say, everyone wants them on their team... does anyone actually want to be them? Their team bonus, in particular, seems like a slap in the face for the Scholar player: 'thanks for boosting /my/ army... I guess when we get to the Imperial Age you can have my unique tech for your mediocre Guards'. Which is decent, provided a) you've got the right allies, and b) you only want to use that single unit.

hS

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((Plort)) From the master tacticians of Vidya Gaem: by Scapegrace on 2017-08-01 18:18:00 UTC Reply

It's a version of Plort for Age of Empires II HD! Yaaay! =]

===

THE PLORTISH
Cavalry and Archer Civilization

Unique Bonuses:-
All research is 10% faster, scaling by +10% per Age.
Buildings required to advance to the next Age are 50% cheaper.
Villagers may garrison any building that can research military or defensive technologies; doing so increases that building's output speed by +5% per Villager (max. +30%).

Unique Technologies:-
Anti-Marizu Raids:-
Archer units of all kinds gain +1/+1 armour and +33% movement and attack speed.
Researched at: Archery Range
Cost: 450 Food, 200 Gold
Base Research Time: 45s
Available at: Castle Age.

Dual Heraldries:-
Cavalry units gain +15% hit points and do +5 bonus damage against Infantry.
Researched at: Castle
Cost: 800 Food, 600 Gold
Base Research Time: 60s
Available at: Imperial Age

Team Bonus: Technologies that affect military units increase the production speed of those units by +5%.

Unique Unit:-

Marizu Hunter
"A powerful ranged unit that excels at taking out infantry and harassing enemies."
Unit Type: Cavalry, Archer
Trained At: Castle
Available At: Castle Age
Cost: 85 Food, 70 Gold
Base Training Time: 65s
Base HP: 80
Base Damage: 7 Melee
Attack Bonuses: +5 vs. Infantry, +4 vs. Archer
Rate of Fire: 1.9
Frame Delay: 10
Base Range: 5
Accuracy: 60%
Projectile Speed: 8
Base Armour: 1/1
Armour Classes: Archer (2), Cavalry Archer (2), Cavalry (4), Unique Unit (0)
Base Speed: 1.3
Base Line of Sight: 6

Upgrades to: Baronial Hunter
Base Upgrade Cost: 1200 Food, 800 Gold
Unit Type: Cavalry, Archer
Trained At: Castle
Available At: Imperial Age
Cost: 85 Food, 70 Gold
Base Training Time: 55s
Base HP: 90
Base Damage: 9 Melee
Attack Bonuses: +8 vs. Infantry, +7 vs. Archer
Rate of Fire: 1.9
Frame Delay: 10
Base Range: 5
Accuracy: 70%
Projectile Speed: 8
Base Armour: 1/1
Armour Classes: Archer (3), Cavalry Archer (3), Cavalry (6), Unique Unit (5)
Base Speed: 1.5
Base Line of Sight: 8

===

Plort's strength lies is in its powerful cavalry archers and very fast technological advancement rate; its ability to churn out powerful units quickly is extremely enviable, though doing so can hurt your economy as it requires the reassignment of Villagers. It has an excellent unique unit in the Marizu Hunter and the upgraded Baronial Hunter, which, though expensive, do considerable damage and do so very quickly. The fact that they do Melee damage rather than Pierce makes them an extremely dangerous proposition, and the fact that they have access to a full Cavalry Archer upgrade tree makes them even more potent. Add to that the Baronial Hunter's bonus armour and enemies will learn to fear your rushes. However, their focus on cavalry archers makes them less flexible elsewhere, and their economic bonuses can't quite outweigh their relative predictability. However, remember that Dual Heraldries affects all Cavalry units and they have a full Cavalry upgrade tree, so Plortish Paladins are exceptionally tough. Similarly, they can pump out fairly potent foot archers as well thanks to their Villager garrison bonus, though the lack of Squires hurts them considerably. On the water... let's not talk about what happens on the water. They're just outclassed by any naval-centric civ, and the lack of both Shipwright and Dry Dock makes them distinctly underpowered on the high seas. Their siege isn't terrible, but their monks are pretty ropey, and they lose the last two techs for Stone and Gold mining, which is particularly lacklustre when their unique unit is so gold-heavy.

In team games, Plort benefits strongly from allies that affect their unique units. The Berbers are an excellent partner, with the Kasbah allowing you to pump out Marizu and Baronial Hunters at a greatly accelerated rate, especially combined with the bonus to Conscription, and the Genitour line gives Plort an incredible trash unit that really plays to their strengths. The Malians have a crazy synergy with Plort's tech boosts, with Plortish Universities pumping out research at a frankly unbelievable rate, while the Mongols give extra LOS to Light Cavalry and Hussars, allowing for Plort's lategame Hussars to really work through the map.

From the other direction, anyone who favours spam tactics (looking at you, Goths) just loves having Plort on their side. The Byzantines love them, as their super-cheap Halberdier spam compliments Plort's cavalry-heavy focus very well. The Franks and Huns are also big fans, as they can get their cavalry out much faster. Finally, Portugal and the Turks appreciate getting their units out faster, as their reduced Gold cost is pretty valuable for that sort of thing.

===

So, that's what I have so far. I've tried to make it as comprehensive as I can. What are people's thoughts? =]

More from Vidya Gaem: by Scapegrace on 2017-08-02 17:51:00 UTC Reply

THE SCHOLARS (Scholar's Empire)
Infantry Civilization

Unique Bonuses:-
Hunters do +10 damage to animals and work 25% faster
Militia units upgrade for free
Units with a specific armour class gain +2 to that armour class

Unique Technologies:-
Vandam Tactics
Scholar foot units and all allied Unique Units gain +33% movement speed.
Researched At: Castle
Cost: 300 Food, 300 Gold
Base Research Time: 60s
Available At: Castle Age

Scholasticism
Scholar and allied Unique Units gain the effects of other civilizations' Unique Technologies.
Researched At: Castle
Cost: 1200 Food, 1000 Wood, 750 Gold
Base Research Time: 300s
Available At: Imperial Age

Team Bonus: The team bonuses of allied civilizations are doubled and affect all military units (where applicable).

Unique Unit:-

Van Guard
"A stalwart defender that excels at taking down other infantry"
Unit Type: Infantry, Spearman
Trained At: Castle
Available At: Castle Age
Cost: 40 Food, 40 Wood
Base Training Time: 18s
Base HP: 65
Base Damage: 5 Melee
Attack Bonuses: +5 vs. Infantry, +5 vs. Spearman, +5 vs. Eagle Warrior, +5 vs. Archer, +5 vs. Gunpowder Units
Rate of Fire: 2.83
Base Armour: 2/0
Armour Classes: Infantry (10), Spearman (10), Unique Unit (10)
Base Speed: 1.1
Base Line of Sight: 4

Upgrades to: Elite Van Guard
Base Upgrade Cost: 1100 Food, 700 Gold
Unit Type: Infantry, Spearman
Trained At: Castle
Available At: Imperial Age
Cost: 40 Food, 40 Wood
Base Training Time: 16s
Base HP: 85
Base Damage: 6 Melee
Attack Bonuses: +8 vs. Infantry, +8 vs. Spearman, +8 vs. Eagle Warrior, +8 vs. Archer, +8 vs. Gunpowder Units, +6 vs. Unique Units
Rate of Fire: 2.5
Base Armour: 2/2
Armour Classes: Infantry (13), Spearman (13), Unique Unit (18)
Base Speed: 1.2
Base Line of Sight: 5

===

The Scholars' Empire has that rarest of things, a trash UU that's actually decent. While it might not do the most damage, remember that it has a boatload of defensive prowess and gains the bonus from the Scholars', and therefore everyone else's, unique technologies. The Empire's a real team player, befitting its lineage as a centre of learning and receiver of tribute from far-off lands; its units, while advanced technologically, suffer for it. Their Stables is particularly woeful, lacking both Scale and Plate Barded Armour as well as Hussars, Camels, and Paladins, so if you fancy yourself a fast knight rush, pick someone else. Anyone else. Their real strength lies in early Feudal Age M@A harassment and fending off Dark Age wolf rushes. They're exceptional hunters, too, so luring Boar and ambushing Deer is very easy for them to do efficiently. Their University is completely full, giving them good defences, and they have Ring Archer Armour and Plate Mail Armour for their foot units. However, they lack the Arbalest and, crucially, the Cavalry Archer line at all. This is not a civ for horse lovers. Navally speaking, they're pretty decent, with an almost complete tech tree that skips only Fast Demolition Rafts and Fast Fire Ships. Their Monks are pretty good, lacking only Heresy and Illumination. Finally, they lack Stone Shaft Mining, giving them a pretty excellent economy tree overall.

Everyone - and I do mean everyone - loves being on a team with the Scholars' Empire. In one on one matchups, they can rely on the strength of their Elite Van Guard, but in 2v2 or more, the Van Guard line gets a huge boost. The Mongols give units +4 line of sight. The Indians give +10 damage against buildings. The Malians let everyone research University techs 160% faster. The Persians give +4 damage against archers. The Goths give a 40% bonus to Barracks output speed. And so on. It. Is. Insane.

Being such a team player does have its benefits for the Scholars as well. Their love-in with the Malians continues as both the Gbeto and the Van Guard get +5(!!) attack from Farimba, while the Magyars become very strong indeed when they remove the gold cost from all allied Unique Units. The Turks also appreciate the boosts to Janissaries now that both their unique technologies (+1 Range and +20 HP) apply to them. Finally, a team with Vikings, Aztecs, and Berbers gives fantastic unique units, as Genitours, Berserkers, Jaguar Warriors and Van Guards gain seriously potent regeneration and bonus damage across the board.

===

So yeah, thoughts? =]

You've missed a trick here. by Huinesoron on 2017-08-08 11:26:00 UTC Reply

It's been a very long time since I've played AoEII, so I don't remember the details, but even if I'd never played it, I'd know you'd missed a perfect opportunity:

The Bronee. How close is it possible to get to a pure-cavalry nation of nomads with a tendency to fanaticism? 'Nomadic' might be the most difficult part... faster-moving resource gatherers? I'unno.

Also: the Marizu. Is conversion a thing in AoE? If so, I'm imagining a ridiculously specialised nation with near-free, near-instant conversion that has little choice but to build its armies by stealing the enemy's.

~

All right, I've gone this far, I'll take a look at what you wrote, too. ;)

Plort: I can sort of see the rapid-research angle, and I love the melee-damaging archer (it's the sort of unconventional thing we'd do), but I don't know why you've gone for cavalry? Excepting the herd at Kwenaya, we've never had a particular focus on horses. Rather, drawing on the PPC ethos, I'd imagine Plort being about stealth, rather than speed.

Equally, I'm confused by the lack of a navy. We're... it's an island civilisation. It lives by sending fleets to harry the Marizu coast. What led you to the idea of a naval-poor nation?

The S.E.: The standout feature of the Scholars is their amazing teamwork. But... while, as you say, everyone wants them on their team... does anyone actually want to be them? Their team bonus, in particular, seems like a slap in the face for the Scholar player: 'thanks for boosting /my/ army... I guess when we get to the Imperial Age you can have my unique tech for your mediocre Guards'. Which is decent, provided a) you've got the right allies, and b) you only want to use that single unit.

hS

WRT the Scholar's Empire bonus: by Scapegrace on 2017-08-09 09:25:00 UTC Reply

Remember that each civilization gets two unique techs (one of which comes in the Castle Age as of the HD remasters), and whatever they are they affect the Van Guard. So, for instance, the Van Guard are affected by the Malian's +5 attack bonus to cavalry from Farimba, the Aztec's +4 bonus to infantry from Garland Wars, the +20 HP from the Turks' Sipahi, the enormous boost to production speed from the Ethiopians' Royal Heirs, the stacked-up area-of-effect damage from the Byzantines, Slavs, and Celts... the list goes on. They have a pretty excellent tech tree and do scarily well in the lategame, using their very fast Van Guard (recall that their movement speed gets boosted by 33% and for heavy infantry it's already really fast) to spearhead attacks while backing them up with a lot of upgrades. In any event, my point with making the Scholars' Empire was to make a civ that was far stronger as an ally than on its own, because when there's nobody left but them, they crumble and fall.

On the Bronee: that's the Huns. That's basically the Huns. Probably with a similar cavalry-related unique tech to Perfusion from the Goths, but still: it's basically the Huns. Maybe with some bonuses cribbed from the Lakota in AoE3.

On Plort: I designed them around being a cavalry archer Civ because, well, cavalry archer Civs are hella fun to play and there aren't any that do melee damage. Additionally, it's very hard to do actual stealth in AoE, so I built it around having an excellent Castle Age to provide mid-game pressure through raiding - and you can't deny that raiding is something that we do a lot in Plort. Plortish units are very easy to mass up, particularly with the increased production speed from their team bonus, which gives them an excellent knight rush and Marizu Hunter rush.

On the Marizu: Yes, there's conversion, but having it be near-instantaneous would be monstrously overpowered. Monks and monk-style units are already very strong (the Aztecs, for instance, have a notorious monk rush) because they can convert, with the requisite upgrades, all units and even buildings. I mean, a conversion speed upgrade isn't out of the question, and a civ bonus that let Villagers be affected by Monastery upgrades would also work, but I'm always slightly wary of boosting monks any more. I was working on a design involving concentrating your force into what essentially was a massively expensive unit that had literally every single unit armour class in the game, was affected by all upgrades, had great base stats, and trained quickly. They'd be difficult to fight one on one, a nightmare en masse, and take massive bonus damage from, for instance, pikemen and halberdiers - a common trash unit that the Marizu would not even slightly care about because they don't cost gold, they must be useless, how can some smelly guy with a stick possibly hurt me?

But yeah, thanks for your thoughts! It's given me quite a bit to think about. =]