World of Warcraft has quite a few of them!

The Loyal Opposition by Huinesoron on 2019-02-12 11:14:00 UTC Reply

Due to the ongoing Shenanigans^TM on both sides of the Atlantic, I've been thinking a fair bit about the role of the opposition. (The specific prompt for this was seeing Jeremy Corbyn lambasted for not supporting a People's Vote, in exactly the same way that he was lambasted for not calling for a vote of no confidence... which he did... and then lost... so what did that achieve, again?) Specifically, the fact that in both our forms of democracy, the opposition is supposed to be just as invested in the good of the country, but with a different view on how to achieve it. In UK parlance, they are Her Majesty's Most Loyal Opposition.

And that got me thinking, as is my wont, about fiction. How often in fiction is there a Loyal Opposition? For that matter, how often is there an actual Opposition at all, rather than straight-up rebels? It's a really interesting concept, but most of the time it gets reduced either to 'hi, I'm the Sultan and this is my Vizer, Sneery Al-Twirlymoustache', or to 'the government is literal demons and we ousted politicians must fight them'.

A few examples which occur to me of actual Oppositions:

-The dynamic between Denethor and Gandalf in Return of the King. Both of them are trying to do what's best for Gondor, but they have wildly different ideas about how. Complicated by the fact that Denethor is under evil influence, and Gandalf has no official power in the first place.

-David Weber's Honor Harrington books. These devote a lot of time to parliamentary politics, with the good guys being both the government and the opposition at times. The problem is, Weber fervently paints the other side - whether it's the Manticoran Conservatives & Liberals, or the Havenites following Giancola - as utterly evil and corrupt. There is no Loyal Opposition, because the Opposition (or the government, for a while) is working for itself, not for the country.

-The Republic Senate in the Star Wars prequels. Ignoring the fact that Palpatine is evil (because his government don't really know that), Amidala and her allies seem to form an unofficial opposition, working against the increasing centralisation of power on the Chancellor, while still supporting the Republic. This got a bit more attention in the old EU; I don't think there's much in the new canon.

... I might be tired, but there's not much else that's springing to mind. Maybe it's because fiction thrives on conflict, and 'they are evil, we must beat them' is the easiest kind of conflict. There's something faintly unsatisfying about 'we got our way, but the other side also had a viable plan, and next time they might win the day'. It doesn't lend itself to proper conclusions - you don't get The Heroes overcoming The Enemy - but I feel like there's a lot of space to explore in the concept?

The thing is, I'm sure it has been done. So now it's up to you to share how. ^_^

(Within the PPC, I imagine the Sub Rosa often taking on the Opposition role; it seems like her kind of deal. And of course, there's the Notary...)

hS

World of Warcraft has quite a few of them! by Iximaz on 2019-02-12 23:33:00 UTC Reply

Obviously not in regards to the Alliance/Horde conflict, but various subgroups within those factions each vying to make themselves heard and push what they think is the best agenda for each faction.

Take the kingdoms of Stormwind and Gilneas, for example. They both support the Alliance, but they have different ideas of how to do it. Stormwind are definitely the Gryffindors of the bunch—wanting to rush into a fight to get the drop on their enemies. Gilneas was reluctantly dragged into the war after the Horde sacked their kingdom, and they're much more likely to call for defensive measures and scouting tactics before jumping into a fight (unless the Forsaken are involved, in which case, all bets are off).

Which actually suggests... by Huinesoron on 2019-02-13 09:20:00 UTC Reply

... Hogwarts. Not in the present, but at founding. Even if you posit Slytherin as eeeeeeevil (which I don't), you still have three people with very different views on what makes a good student, all working together to build a school. I mean, you know Helga occasionally had to resort to closing the kitchens to get the other three to see sense, while Rowena's preferred tactic was to explain at tedious length exactly why she was right until they gave in. ^_^

Going back to WoW, I can see how the MMO setup would be ripe for this: it lets you set up sub-conflicts beneath your main one, without there being a Secretly Evil faction involved. The more players you have, the more complexity you can work in.

hS

A couple that come to mind for me by [EvilAI]UBEROverlord on 2019-02-12 19:57:00 UTC Reply
1. Arl Eamon's Camp in Dragon Age Origins. While he admits the Warden could form a rebellion they should seek a political opposition to restrain Loghain and stop the Dark Spawn.
  
  2. Cerberus in Mass Effect 2 (It becomes a different situaiton in 3). The Illusive Man is acting in what he thinks is Humanity's Best Interest, it is just in a wildly different manner than the Alliance.
I wish we had that. by Neshomeh on 2019-02-12 15:47:00 UTC Reply

... Okay, when I started writing this post, I was completely convinced there used to be such a thing as a naysmith, whose job it was to challenge the assumptions of the other people making the important decisions, like the Notary on the Continuity Council. Now that I Google it, though, I find no support for this. Apparently the surname Naysmith or Naismith comes from the occupation of a cutler. Did I make this up? O.o

Well, that aside... you could cast someone like that as a hero in a story. Maybe the people they're arguing with aren't even wrong, they just don't have all the information, and it's up to the loyal opponent to find it before it's too late?

~Neshomeh

Thanks to Scapegrace... by Huinesoron on 2019-02-13 09:36:00 UTC Reply

... (way back when we founded the Continuity Council), I can point you at the promotor fidei, the 'Promoter of the Faith', AKA the Devil's Advocate of Roman Catholicism. Their job was to argue against the canonization of a prospective saint, in contrast to the Promoter of the Cause, aka God's Advocate.

Where you've picked up the term 'Naysmith' from appears to be this:

"But we are still creatures of flesh and inclined to repeat our past mistakes, so I have been careful to surround myself with naysmiths to rein in my arrogance." ~Magnus the Red, A Thousand Sons

^_~

The proliferation of terms do lend themselves to a hypothetical series, though. You'd have Naysmith, Devil's Advocate, The Loyal Opposition... and just like that you've got a trilogy.

hS

Naysmiths persist in M42... by SeaTurtle on 2019-02-15 15:23:00 UTC Reply

Lieutenants of the Iron Hands are named Naysmiths and are charged with challenging and cross-examining their Captains' battle plans to test for errors of human logic.

-Space Marines Codex, 8th ed.
Dammit, Magnus. by Neshomeh on 2019-02-13 14:30:00 UTC Reply

That's probably exactly true. I decided I liked the term, never looked it up, conflated it with an existing one, and then forgot how that happened, and here we are a year and change later. Sigh.

I do like it, though. And the idea for a trilogy. ^_^

~Neshomeh

I would read that story... by S.M.F. on 2019-02-12 17:15:00 UTC Reply

As would many people I know in various sections of the internets, I suspect.