Subject: No problem. :)
Author:
Posted on: 2013-06-25 03:16:00 UTC
I was reading into it like that because I was frustrated with the quality of writing throughout the book, because I didn't bother to check the source material, and because I'm shamefully prone to dramatic exaggerations when I retell stories. :P
I'm the only one at fault here, don't fret.
So, I was just living life, languidly nibbling on some shrip... when it hit me. The Plot-hole of Doom, followed by a long string of what-ifs. It may not be the most clever of conspiracy theories, but it must be shared.
In The Hunger Games, Katniss iconically discovers Peeta slowly dying in a creekbed, meticulously camouflaged, where he claims that Cato attacked him after he betrayed the Careers to save Katniss from the tracker jackers.
BUT. Who drags themselves five miles or more to a river, while perishing of bloodloss, then wanders around in the woods for at least six hours gathering paint supplies, then mixes the paint, and then decorates themselves in such detail? There is 0% chance of staying lucid that long with such grievous injuries. And while he supposedly allied with the Careers only for the purpose of steering them away from Katniss, and protecting her, he consistently led them straight to her campsites. Not to mention that it had been days, maybe a week, between the tracker jackers and when Peeta logically would have obtained the wound.
The only possible explanation for the river incident is that he painted himself, cut his hand to leave the prints beside the river, and then asked Cato to slash him- or slashed himself. Meaning that he was a Career all along, and had set up a trap to lure Katniss in so his posse could pounce on her while she tended Peeta's wounds. Then the Careers would heal him, or more likely promise to and then leave him to die.
The Careers would either kill Katniss straightaways, or Katniss would figure out Peeta's treachery and escape. Either way she would not be Peeta's ally, Peeta would die, and she would have no motive to attend the feast. Clove would not pin her, and thus not mention Rue's fate. Thresh would have no reason to divert his attention from Cato, and Clove would live. Cato would still defeat Thresh, leaving Foxface, *possibly* Katniss, and District Two in the Games.
I could explain the victory of any of them, but regardless of the winner, Katniss and Peeta would not have threatened double suicide, and so there would be no rebellion in Panem.
And that is why authors should reread before they submit their manuscripts.
-- Len
If that happened, then there really wouldn't be much of a story for the series, would there? But it's an interesting point.
Interesting theory you have there. If you would allow me a few thoughts?
Who drags themselves five miles or more to a river, while perishing of bloodloss, then wanders around in the woods for at least six hours gathering paint supplies, then mixes the paint, and then decorates themselves in such detail? There is 0% chance of staying lucid that long with such grievous injuries.
Not to mention that it had been days, maybe a week, between the tracker jackers and when Peeta logically would have obtained the wound. [til she finds him]
To me it seems logical he would try to get to water if he were, and he was, in such bad shape. You'll die sooner without water than you will food, and any food you might be looking to catch has to come get a drink sometime too. So it's a good place to be. I'd like to know where you come up with that it was 5+ miles to the stream, was it a guesstimate? Was it shown that it seemed to be that far in the movie, because I've not seen that?. In the book it doesn't say, and from Katniss' point of view after her stings work through her system, it wasn't that far til she found the stream which she would later follow back toward the Career's camp and wind up finding Peeta, so I don't think it was as far as all that, maybe a mile, two - two and a half tops.
What we do know is he was cut immediately, and that it was Cato who did it, and that he meant to kill, because at the victor's wrap up Katniss sees how he fought Cato to ensure her escape from the scene. And Cato was boasting about it at the lake when Katniss goes to blow up the supplies. So he was cut the day of the attack, and here, I agree with you on the oddity of his surviving between the Tracker Jacker attack and the blood loss because it does take Katniss nearly a full week to find him. (She was out 2 nights with the stinger venom, she spent the one night with Rue, she spent a night by the camp after blowing the supplies and then she spent two nights mourning Rue, the night of her death and the next night, which was also when the rule change announcement was made. So she located Peeta on the stream mid-morning or so of the 7th day.) He should have died of dehydration before then. Unless you postulate that he was not in the dire straights she found him in until a few days later. Cato's "sure cut" failed to kill the tribute from District 8 on the first night, and with added difficulty of attacking while under the influence of the Tracker Jacker's venom, he once again seems to have missed anything vital. It states the wound goes down to the bone, but unless you hit an artery, that's survivable. It's the infection and how weak he is that is killing him when Katniss finds him, not the wound itself. So if he held out a few days, and he would have had to simply because as you state he would not have been lucid enough to manage it for at least a day and a half after the Tracker Jackers during which time the Careers wouldn't have been able to track him either, but if he held out for a couple days beyond that before having to bury himself, he would be in okay shape water wise by the stream. Also, Katniss' flight under the effects of the venom seems to indicate that he could have covered the distance to the stream, wounded as he was on some kind of adrenaline high, and he too was running for his life, so it wouldn't have been as hard to make it to cover the distance to the stream as it might have been, had he simply been wounded, without the venom, and without the fleeing for his life.
I don't think it would have taken that long to gather camouflage supplies by the river either, he used the mud and vegetation that was already there to do the trick. No mixing, no real "gathering". Plus if as we've presumed above, if he made it a few days before having to hunker down and accept dying in the mud, he would have had time to gather anything he would have needed to. Still, I doubt he would have needed to spend that much time gathering things even if he had to do so immediately. Once again I'm wondering if it was implied he spent time gathering supplies in the movie? Because I don't see that mentioned in the book, in fact it doesn't seem to mention anything at all about Peeta from the time of the Tracker Jackers, to when Katniss finds him, she tells about herself, and he talks about when he first started having a crush on her, but she never asks what went on between the attack and fight with Cato and her finding him on the stream bank. So we really can't know how long he was up before he had to bury himself and hide.
And while he supposedly allied with the Careers only for the purpose of steering them away from Katniss, and protecting her, he consistently led them straight to her campsites.
Again, are you inferring that he led them to her from the movie? Or just because he happened to be with them and they ran across her a couple times? Both times we see them run across her in the book are perfectly natural, Not because Peeta, or even the Career's, were specifically tracking her, though from the sound of it, they were, and Peeta would have just been along to protect her should the need arise.
The first night they followed the beacon of the campfire the girl tribute from District 8 lit to keep warm. (the one Cato failed to kill with his "sure cut") Neither the Careers nor Peeta even knew Katniss was near by. The second and last time they find her while Peeta is with them was the fourth night out, and was because that day's fire, the one sent by the Gamemakers, had driven them all together, and Katniss, fleeing for her life as she was and with her injuries, wasn't as careful about not leaving a trail as she would have been otherwise. Then she also proceeded to sit out in the open by the pond for quite a while.
The only possible explanation for the river incident is that he painted himself, cut his hand to leave the prints beside the river, and then asked Cato to slash him- or slashed himself. Meaning that he was a Career all along, and had set up a trap to lure Katniss in so his posse could pounce on her while she tended Peeta's wounds.
As touched on above, we know Peeta was cut the day of the Tracker Jacker attack by Cato because he was helping Katniss escape. We also know that if he were a Career, he would have simply killed her himself when he found she had come back to the Tracker Jacker scene to retrieve the bow and arrows from Glimmer's body, instead he told her to run. Then as we hear during the victor's wrap up in the Capital, he actually fought Cato to ensure her escape.
That it was a trap to lure Katniss in would not have been a good strategy for Peeta or the Careers to consider either, since they would have no guarantee she would come find him until after the rule change on the sixth night after the attack. And by that time Peeta was too weak, and his leg far to infected to have put the strategy together and enacted it the night before. Plus we already know when and why the wound was inflicted, and that Peeta was misleading the Careers and actually fighting Cato off to help Katniss.
I agree with you, with the time line given, he probably should have died of dehydration before she found him, or from infection. But I don't think the plot-hole is nearly as big as you followed your "what-ifs" into. :)
I stand corrected.
I was giddy on shrimp and did not think it through. It's also been several months since I read or watched it. Excuses aside, congratulations! You should be an FBI agent. :D
What I wouldn't give for an edit button right about now... ^^;
Also, we've all had those moments... right? Anyone? Ahem... I know I have, I've found gaping holes before, and then mentioned it to some one to have them go... Um...not really. XD
And I actually was surprised by how long it was between the Tracker Jacker attack and when she found him, initially I was thinking it had to have only been a couple days right? Because he wouldn't be able to survive the venom, dehydration and wound that long right? But counting it out, it's about a week. And I'd never questioned Peeta's loyalty, because Suzanne stated over and over about him being the one in love, before either, so kudos for considering what if's enough to question what she tries to write as a given. :)
Like when Katniss repeatedly refers to herself as Ze Ultimate Survivah and reminisces about the time where she lived two months off of mint tea, and then spends an entire day pacing and chowing down on stir fry in the Capitol before exclaiming how ravenous she is at dinner time and gorging herself at the multi-course feast. (No joke.) And *then* remarks on how she's the fittest Tribute in the training facility after a week or so of this behavior. I mean, I would understand being hungry and stuffing yourself after getting by on such mean sustenance all your life, but that's really pushing reality.
Sorry, I'm ranting at this point. :P
But you're still right.
-- Len
Questioning is good, a good author/story can stand up to it. :D
I don't remember Katniss referring to her self as such, mostly I remember she seems to pretty much figure she may be dead, but at least she'll go out fighting. And having just re-read that part, I know she was impressed with Rue's knowledge of grains/berries/night vision glasses and with Foxface's cleverness and that she is an opponent to be reckoned with, and the boy from District 3 for that matter, the one that re-activated and placed the bombs around the supplies she destroys. And she admits Thresh would know what grains were out in the plain where he hides the whole games. I could be wrong though.
Same goes for the frequency she gorges herself and then complains of being hungry. Though I would like to point out that stress (and probably the training they were undergoing) would be a huge calorie burner. She is a very active nervous type as you pointed out about the pacing, and I remember her pacing several times when confined. Or thinking she's the fittest tribute. I'll have to re-read the book again before I can say one way or the other, unless you have specific passages you're thinking about? The answers to your previous line of questioning I more or less knew exactly where to find. These however will probably be more spread out. I don't remember the mint tea for two months either, though I can make the guess it's probably one of the times she's thinking about the time just after her father died.
...this time, yes, I do have a few specific passages I'm thinking of. Sadly, I can't cite the page numbers for you, but this is not mere speculative thinking. It was an actual scene.
The hunger thing was not a repetitive behavior, just an extended incident that particularly bugged me.
And I meant survivor not as likely victor, but as one who can live off of barely any resources.
You do have a point about the nerves, though. :)
Oops, I guess I read wrong that it was repetitive. Where was this scene? Specific page numbers aren't a problem, if you can remember what happened around/before/after them, I can probably find them fairly easily. :)
Ah okay, yeah, she did seem to make a point of that and/or describe her survival skills on a fairly semi-regular basis.
I believe the stir fry incident was on one of the first couple days in the Capitol. She was described as walking back and force eating a rice and chicken mixture or some such thing...
The "fittest tribute" was, I think, on the first day of training.
The tea leaves was thinking about life right after her father's accident.
Sorry that I can't be more specific.
Actually that's perfect, narrows it down a lot. ^^
I would call shenanigans on surviving on mint tea for two months for sure though. Except I found the passage and it was only for three days.
She was remembering after her father died, and she was trying to sell some old clothes for money, it was when she was describing the bread incident. "Although I had been to the Hob on several occasions with my father, I was too frightened to venture into that rough, gritty place alone. The rain had soaked through my father's hunting jacket, leaving me chilled to the bone. For three days, we'd had nothing but boiled water with some old dried mint leaves I'd found in the back of the cupboard."
Alright, found the other two passages too.
...spends an entire day pacing and chowing down on stir fry in the Capitol before exclaiming how ravenous she is at dinner time and gorging herself at the multi-course feast.
It's actually goose liver and 'puffy bread' if it's right before dinner the first night. And it's sorta kinda implied she didn't have lunch (it describes what is served at lunch, but then Cinna and her get to talking about philosophical things and her costume, and it never actually says they eat.) But I'll give it that it's just not described. Still it simply says she eats the goose liver and bread "Until there is a knock at her door. Effie calling her for dinner." but we have no idea how long this is. It's after the parade, and she showers and dresses, so it's probably not to super terribly long. And again, the nervous pacing, so it might be a little stretch that she's "starving" but she is probably a bit hungry still after the day she's had.
And *then* remarks on how she's the fittest Tribute in the training facility after a week or so of this behavior. I mean, I would understand being hungry and stuffing yourself after getting by on such mean sustenance all your life, but that's really pushing reality.
Actually, again, if I found the right passage, and it's her first walking into the training center, she's only been eating this food for two days at most. It states the train ride to the Capital takes less than a day, so she has supper and breakfast on the train, lunch (maybe?) with the stylists, snack in her room, dinner after the ceremony, and breakfast again the next day.
She's also not saying she's the fittest of the group, only that she appears to get a bit more food regularly than the other non-Career districts, and healthy food from the forest. That combined with the exercise she gets obtaining that food leaves her healthier than a good deal of them to start with, not that she's the fittest of them currently. At least the way I read it.
Forget I said anything.
I didn't mean to be like that... :/
I was just trying to see what you were saying in the source material, and it wasn't there for me. If you'd care to elaborate why you're reading into it what you're reading into it I'd be happy to hear a different side. I just wasn't seeing the connotation you were saying was there...
I was reading into it like that because I was frustrated with the quality of writing throughout the book, because I didn't bother to check the source material, and because I'm shamefully prone to dramatic exaggerations when I retell stories. :P
I'm the only one at fault here, don't fret.
Alright then ^^ I just wanted to make sure you knew I wasn't trying to come across... well any particular way at all really. :)
Don't worry, we all do that, there are times I absolutely swear up and down that something has more grandiose dimensions than it dose, or is more terrible than it is. And then someone tells me otherwise, I run for the book/movie and then have to put the book/movie away and try to pretend I hadn't actually said anything. Oh look is that a squirrel, gosh those curtains are lovely, said something about proving a point? Oh no, that wasn't me, you must be mistaken, I just wanted to look out the window through the lovely curtains at the wildlife. XD
*looks about hopefully* Ah well...
To be fair, I cheated a bit, it's also been a while since I re-read the first book, I didn't think what you were saying sounded completely right, but I did have to dig out my copy of the book and look everything up to be sure of what I was saying. :) And like I said, your theory could have been based on the movie, which I haven't seen because I was not happy with most of their cast choices, so all I could say was from the book.
I'm not much of a Hunger Games person myself, but I know enough to know what you're talking about.
Also, you were nibbling on some shrip? What's that? Can I have some?
-Aila
Shrips are tiny, invisible creatures with long curved tusks and large ears. They are hypersensitive to sound and flock to the noises of bubble-blowing. They enjoy chasing the bubbles, but always end up inadvertently impaling them on their tusks, thus the reason why bubbles always pop.
If one were to nibble them, the universe would be thrown out of whack.
-- Len
wha
but
but
i was told that nibbling shrips would help me function better
my doctor told me to nibble one every day as a dietary suppliment
what does this mean
WHAT DOES THIS MEEEEEAAAANNNNNNN
...maybe it would help if you're having, you know, gastrointestinal... issues, or if you eat too much hummus and beans before church. That sorta thing. Seeing as they pop bubbles and all. (Majorly awkward post.)
Does Luna Lovegood know of their existence?
-Aila
They sound like her area of expertise, and they're distant relatives of Nargles.
Are you talking about the book or the movie? I have a few things to point out, but it all depends on which version we are talking about.
-Phobos
Well, let's break this down one medium at a time. But first, let's talk about some of the flaws in logic that affect both.
1) "Who drags themselves five miles or more to a river..." I'd really like to know your source on that. I've been scouring the book trying to find any actual distances, but I haven't found any. I do know that Katniss makes the trip from the stream to the Cornucopia, by an indirect path, in the dark, while trying to be quiet, starting in the middle of the night, and still makes it there before dawn. So, I am guessing that it is well less than 5 miles.
2) "...he consistently led them straight to her campsites..." The implication here is that he either knew where Katniss was already, or that the baker's son somehow secretly had the skills necessary to track someone who spent her entire life hunting in the woods. I don't buy either explanation, and I haven't seen anything to suggest that Peeta was doing anything but looking out for Katniss when he joined the Careers. In fact, he ran back to her to get her out of there after the Tracker Jackers attack. If he wanted her dead, why didn't he just keep her there (which would have been really easy at that point) until the Careers came back.
3) "Meaning that he was a Career all along, and had set up a trap to lure Katniss in so his posse could pounce on her..." There was a distinct lack of pouncing going on. If it was a trap, where was the trap? They knew he wasn't dead yet, there would have been a canon shot. So, if they meant to just leave him there to die (which is really out of character for the Careers), then why wouldn't they just come back and check to make sure he wasn't in a nearby cave being nursed back to health over the course of a few days? Worst trap/double cross ever.
4) Peeta's problem in both the book and the movie wasn't loss of blood. It was, instead, blood poisoning. He was slowly dying of his blood turning toxic. The inflammation from the infection could easily have stanched the flow of blood from the leg, not to mention the fact the he is smart enough to do that himself.
All that out of the way, let's talk about the book and movie. This mainly deals with the camouflage.
Peeta is described in the book as being camouflaged by "brown mud and green leaves" which would be readily available on the bank of the stream. That means there wouldn't be any running around the woods for hours looking for paint supplies.
In the movie, the wound is far less terrible, and he was clearly painted to resemble the boulder he was lying against. In this case, because of the less severe wound, he may have had the time to mix up, using readily available materials, something gray to color his face with. The rest of him was covered in mud, like in the book.
Long story short, the material I have found doesn't support your theory. I don't see any reason to believe that he was ever a bad guy or a turn-coat.
-Phobos
I stand corrected. :D
I got busy cooking dinner, doing research, and typing my reply.
-Phobos
Well, the whole setup of Peeta's camouflage seems a little ridiculous, as Everything Wrong With The Hunger Games in X Minutes put it, district 12, an area so poor they eat squirrels, has a bakery with frosted cakes? And, in hindsight, I guess that wandering around for a few hours looking for the right kind of colours, while stabbed/cut open/both, is just beyond the realm of Willing Suspension of Disbelief.