Subject: Further discussion on Mary Sue Pages
Author:
Posted on: 2012-09-23 02:49:00 UTC
http://ppc.wikia.com/wiki/Category:SlainMarySues
It has been several months since we've done anything with this category. I think it's about time we finalize the process for adding new Sues.
So: Thoughts? Suggestions? Ideas?
I think I've said some of this before, but:
The reason I like the idea of nominations is that it encourages involvement with each other, and it discourages people from shoehorning things into missions simply to meet requirements for getting a Sue page, which is my concern about relying on guidelines and common sense. Everybody wants to make their mark, which is fine, but I think the truest test of that is the impact their work has on the rest of us. For that reason, I think there should also be a minimum wait time before a particular Sue can be nominated—maybe a couple of weeks or a month from when the mission is posted. If the Sue can be forgotten about in such a relatively short time, it probably wasn't that big a deal.
To respond to a specific suggestion, I think having a certain number of charges be a guideline is an especially easy to exploit idea, and I'm against it. Charge lists have already ballooned massively from what they were in past years; they don't need any encouragement. The quality ought to be more important than the quantity in any case.
Whatever we do, I think it will be important to keep in mind what qualities the Sue has on its own and what qualities come from the author(s) of the mission. Either of these can be important. For instance, I think Archir the Emerald made an impact because what Tungsten and I did with him conceptually at the end was unique, at least as much if not more than because of what he got up to in the actual badfic (though our agents probably still have nightmares about some of that). On the other hand, something like the Balrog Sue or Solaris (to say nothing of Legendary Sues) stands out because of her own spectacular and unique awfulness.
Either way, the key is unique and memorable, IMO.
~Neshomeh
PS. Hi, Guv!
Just one question though, should we be able to nominate Sues from our own missions, or should it be that other people do the nominating?
I only ask because you mentioned having a waiting time to make sure they're memorable enough to be placed on the Wiki (which I think sounds perfectly reasonable), and I would think that the author(s) of a mission are going to remember the Sue for a while anyway, just because of the amount of time/effort it takes to write a mission.
Because, as you say, mission authors are going to remember the stuff they wrote because they wrote it, regardless of anything else.
That said, though, it might not hurt to have a way for people to speak up for their own work in the event that no one else does. Maybe after half a year or something, if you still really feel like your Sue/mission was something big on a wide scale, then you can self-nominate?
Just my thought.
~Neshomeh
This sounds good to me. I may be a bit weird here, but not all of the Sues and author phantoms I wrote really stand out to me. It has been a while since I wrote most of them, but if you put a long enough waiting period on it, even the authors should maybe only be thinking of the memorable ones.
Nominations (with reasons) and then a vote does seem like the best way to do this.
Even with guidelines and common sense, people just have different opinions. We had guidelines and common sense when we cleaned out the Sue pages and we disagreed on some Sues. Not wildly, not passionately, but we still had debates and votes about some of them.
And I actually think we will get more Sue pages this way. Rather than people thinking 'Should I add this Sue? Is he/she notable? He/she probably isn't. I better not.' they can now ask on the Board and maybe get an affirmative.
...of nominations. I think the waiting period is important, too.
P.S. Hi Nesh!
I was poking through the list of legendary mary sues, and it turns out the link to the first Jaycacia Thornbyrd story goes to a site that is "frozen."
http://www.freewebs.com/bonsaimallorn3/Badfic.htm
My computer,at least, won't open it up. This one is to "The Story of Jaycacia," the links to the two sequels appear to be fine. Thought I might mention it here in the hopes that someone will fix it, as this thread does pertain to the notable sues page.
Pretty much any bonsaimallorn3 or 4 link is defunct at this point. This is the active link to that particular story... I'll go and fix it.
hS, bad webmaster
Or that it's a parody. Tell me anything that won't destroy my faith in humanity.
That good enough not to destroy your faith in humanity? The wiki page mentioned that it was a parody,but I suspect that by that point your eyes were bleeding anyway. :)
How DARE yuu compare my Jaycacia to a torll!!!! Your just hating becuz your not as AWESOMME as she is!!!!!
JAyBird
(... oh it was so tempting to leave it at that. Read this... ~hS)
NO JAYCACIA CAN NAWT BE AS AWESOME AS GRIMOIRTINA JELLITH THE THIRD! Shes Jaycacia's secret twin who was born in teh past by her futre prents and tehn she discovrs the plot to kill there parnts and has hawt romance with evryone lol
(Sorry for not checking the wiki first!~IA)
She is so much prettier and talented and she's not a Sue!
(lololololol ~Lily)
Shes the ALLYCORN head of teh PPC from MLPFIM, the BESTEEST SHOW EVER and is a WAY BETER bos than teh flowrs!
(I actually like MLP:FiM, but the Sues there... --firemagic)
Enoby is da best cuz shes prety and shes not a prep liek all ur other marry sues.
P.S. Stop flaming ma story!!11! GTFO preps!!1! MCR ROX.
P.P.S. ThatOne is having immense fun with this.
It is VERY RUDE to give people heart attacks like that! Gah...
Lilith isn't a prep, loser, nor is she a goth. She's just an ordinary yet extraordinary bookworm girl! Who attracts Legolas! And stuff! So therefore she's even less of a Sue than your silly Enoby!
(What have we descended to ~Lily)
Ive ben tyrin to talk to u ffor nights (geddit) what do u think of mt story can u beta it pls? but I still think the chocula thing is stoopid lol cuz vampires jus drink blood and I cant believe ppl flam u lik that i mean Tara is so original and not all stuk up her dark side is teh best lol
(I should stop now. I really should. I need to stop.)
By the holy tomes of J.K. Rowling and Tolkein, I cast you away from this sanctuary of good literature!
she must b lyke, uber jellie of allof us an our awesometasticalness!
U hab no powrz here, u h8er! stupi d prep go away an stop h8ting on our genus work!
(Oh Emperor, it's contagious! -Riese)
dont lissen 2 her, guyz, ur storys roxorz! lol she jus wishes she cud rite like u!
Yes, we are all of us JELL-O'S!
Nevermind, sorry, the wiki is golden, I won't post without research again.
...that the Sues mentioned there must be significant in some way.
I recently added a Sue to the category myself; I thought she was a good definition of the modern thinly-veiled Sue - that is, a girl who lurks in a grammatically correct and rather well-written (meaning prose style not very shabby) story, doesn't blatantly interfere with the Canon, and somehow still manages to derail the plot to suit her purposes.
So generally I think there could just be notable 'types' of Sues in the category. Sues that stand out for one reason or another, Sues whose missions have defined their Agents in some way, affected or traumatised them, whatever... those are the kinds that ought to be on the wiki, imo.
..."The exact process for adding pages to this category is currently under evaluation. Please bear with us and hold off on making more Sue pages for the time being. Thanks!"
We also, very, very explicitly deleted Sues only significant because of their impact on agents- that was one of the reason there were so many pages in the first place.
I don't think I noticed the warning, though. Should I delete the page I made?
In any case I feel like Alexis Gilmore still belongs because she's a good example of one of those insidious Sues that Agents working in continuums with high Sue awareness find themselves encountering. And her character replacing Sherlock led to the discovery that he knows of the PPC.
Assuming you don't trust the PPC to work with something like 'Please only add your Mary-Sue if (s)he is notable for some reason'... well, here's some suggested types that should(?) be added:
-Multi-mission Sues (eg Marissa Picard)
-Sues who have an effect on later PPC stories (eg Sairalinde, through her ring)
-Sues who are killed in a collaboration (eg Alumia - where collaboration implies more than two PPC writers. This would suggest that whoever Dafydd, Alec and Neshomeh killed on Pern would need a page, since there were three of us)
-Sues from agreed Legendary Badfics (eg Celebrian)
-Sues who did something spectacular to the PPC (no examples, but if an agent got killed, or the Sue got loose in HQ, for example)
-Sues who are from barely-used continuua/the first from a continuum, if this is noted in the mission (eg that Pern Sue again, and possibly that Lineland thing Narto and Lou killed, if it even had a Sue)
-Sues who are written about at some length on another page (so, for instance, if their biology inspires the DMSE&R, and is therefore talked about on the DMSE&R page... although this would fall under 'effect on later stories' anyway)
-Sues killed by Jay and Acacia (this will probably not get used much... :P)
I'd still prefer to assume common sense, but if not, this breaks down pretty much what my definition of 'use common sense' actually /means/.
hS
...is that it is uncommon.
Also, the Pern Sues were a big struggle, but the conclusion the 'committee' (all three of us) and Nesh reached was that those particular Sues were not by themselves notable- just good examples of what makes a Pern Sue.
As far as the barely used continuum Sue things go, well, we didn't actually have to make judgement on that when we were deleting them, but my personal opinion is that just being from such a continuum is not uniqe.
I'm in agreement on pretty much the rest of your points, but I think clear guidelines, or some kind of outside judgement, would be needed. Perhaps a nomination process, since that does not establish anything hierarchic.
What about having a charge list above a certain number? Also, do Intelligence Reports count as being multi-mission?
I'd also add 'Sues who inadvertently contribute something to the PPC continuity', like how Alexis Gilmore and Tabitha Watson more or less helped confirm that BBC!Holmes knows of the PPC by stuffing him into a plothole and replacing him with Stulock.