Not my cup of tea at all, but good for you for doing research. (nm)

Subject: Not my cup of tea at all, but good for you for doing research. (nm)
Author: Linstar
Posted on: 2022-05-20 16:43:34 UTC

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Ancient history buff betas sought for! by Oculus on 2022-05-20 10:44:13 UTC Writing Beta request Reply

I'm working on a longish historical fiction/gay romance story set in the Roman Empire in 111 AD, and I have a mighty need for a beta who knows more about the Romans than I do (my ancient historical knowledge is basically on the level of "likes the Shakespeare plays Julius Caesar and Coriolanus way too much"). I don't aim for 100% historical accuracy, and I do my best to research everything, but some of the finer details are very hard to find even with Uncle Google, so I would like to ask for a patient reader with a few spare spoons, who can help me iron out the more glaring errors before anything of this story is posted on the interwebs. You can reach out to me here, or within the PPC Discord server. The first chapter/prologue of this story will be done soon (it'll only be a few pages, I'd say), so come on and check it out. It has lesbians. :P

Oc, wondering what the heck they were thinking starting a story that needs this much research, but having way too much fun to stop now

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Chapter three raises its head... by Oculus on 2022-05-22 16:13:37 UTC Plug Reply

Octavia and her men land at the shore of Dreopis, with a welcoming committee who are not entirely pleased to be there.

Chapter is here, and mostly safe to read except for some minor old-timey harsh language.

Let's see what we've got. by Huinesoron on 2022-05-22 21:45:40 UTC Reply
- Damespoin. Sounds French, or even Greek (by way of "Despoina"). Hopefully it's not French inspired, since French comes from Latin. Greek... well, it has me thinking "Atlantis".
- Enike Sen. Still feeling Greek, and, um... that's not a surname, surely? Surnames - as in, inherited family names - are really uncommon historically in Europe. The Romans sort of had them, they seem to have been relatively common across the Arab world, and of course China and its orbit, but... not native European cultures so much. (Of course, it could just as easily be a title - that's about as common at this point, if not more!)
- Taiya. Does not feel Greek. Doesn't feel Celtic either. Not sure what it does feel, to be honest! (I'm just running into "taiga" constantly.)
- Rhod Kore. I'm sorry, I keep wanting to call him Kod Rhoe. ^_~ "Kore" is an actual Greek deity, of course. That he's a Captain indicates that if the 'surname' is a title, it would have to be one of status, not military rank.
- So with all the vaguely-Greekish, I'm thinking... lost Phoenician/Carthaginian colony? They spent a lot of time mucking about in boats, and Carthage settled a lot of southern Spain. There's no obvious reason they couldn't have sent feelers out into the Ocean Sea, and it could be long enough ago that it's beyond cultural memory. If Taiya is a goddess, she could be a renamed memory of Tanit, for example.
- "parade rest". Almost certainly wildly anachronistic. The idea of parade rest ("standing at ease" outside the US) requires a formal military which practices close-quarters formation fighting - ie, Roman style - and even then, the specifics are almost certainly a historical accident.
- Claudius Messala looks fine, but he didn't serve in the Legion "many years ago". The minimum stint appears to have been 20 years, so at most it was less than a decade. (Presumably he is from a pretty important family, if he's a Governor so quickly! I guess that's another Imperial name right there...) I see he brought 'servants' rather than slaves - is that just you being unhappy about slavery? Because I totally get that.
- I can't really comment on the Latin, but "sire" is looking very weird. Are you sure you didn't want "sir"?
- A denarius was about a day's wages for a legionary in the early Empire, declining in value after that (then ultimately going out of use in the mid third century, by which point ten denarii would just about buy a cup of wine). The size of the wager seems to put us somewhere in the second century, which has been my guess all along.
So yeah, once again no real problems, and it continues to look interesting. :)

hS
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Let's see what you see. :P by Oculus on 2022-05-23 00:08:32 UTC Reply

For the record, I am absolutely 100% not even attempting any kind of linguistic accuracy with Dreopian names (I do lean a bit towards Greek, as you noticed with Kore, which I did know was of Greek origin), because this story is already taking me a mountain of research. They do in fact have surnames, but those are basically shortened versions of their full names, so... somewhere between a modern-day last name and a title? Sorry. :P Any kind of real history/language buff is probably tearing out their hair reading that description, but naming things is one of the most difficult parts of writing for me, so I'm trying to just come up with names that don't look like a keysmash.

As for the rest of what you said, duly noted, and thanks again for all the attention to detail! And yes, there's a reason Claudius has servants instead of slaves.

(sits down with the metaphorical red pen to correct all the inaccuracies)

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On names by Neshomeh on 2022-05-23 03:55:40 UTC Reply

Because, while I'm not tearing my hair out, my eyebrow is twitching just a little. ^_~

May I suggest Behind the Name as a quick and easy way to find real names that are roughly correct for their language? For instance, here's the Ancient Greek name list, and here's the Ancient Roman one.

(Taiya is on there as a user-submitted name, apparently of Chinese origin. Similarly, Rhod might be a short form of a Welsh name. I wonder if you meant Enike to be based on the Greek name Nike? It reminds me of the Hungarian name Eniko, though. I know someone with that name!)

~Neshomeh

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Thanks, Nesh, but... by Oculus on 2022-05-23 05:19:32 UTC Reply

I'm not using any real-life language as a basis for Dreopian names besides "vaguely Greek-ish if you squint in a dark room", or I would be using sites like Behind the Name instead of name generators and my - admittedly limited - imagination. Enike was in fact based off the Hungarian name (Hungarian is my native language, if you recall), but that's where the similarities stop.

Really, all I can do is apologize for my faulty naming scheme if that bothers my readers, but as a non-native English speaker who has a limited knowledge of the ancient world, this is my most difficult project I've ever worked on, and there's a lot of worldbuilding and plotting research I've got to deal with already. I try my best to represent Rome well (minus the whole 'female soldier' bit, obviously, but I have my reasons for that), and I'm grateful that hS has taken time to help me correct my errors, but when it comes to the completely made-up parts, well... I don't want to get lost in every single detail to the point where it sucks out the fun from writing. I will attempt to paint a plausible picture of Dreopis as a nation and culture, but when it comes to their language, that's where my abilities are at their limit. I understand why bad linguistics might be a source of eyebrow-raising for some of y'all, but that's all I can say.

(I'm not angry, or butthurt at your suggestions, by the way, just a little sleep-deprived, so sorry if my tone sounds a bit blunt. I don't mean it that way. Thank you trying to help improve my story, but this isn't meant to be taken that seriously.)

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A wild second chapter appears! by Oculus on 2022-05-20 21:42:50 UTC Plug Reply

I know, I should probably write proper chapters instead of snippets, but I'm still figuring out the structure for this story, so bear with me.

Anyway, this is where things turn a bit more Dramatique, as the Centurion prepares to land on the Dreopian shore with her troop. Warning for a mention of BL9 (destructive fire). You can read the chapter here, and if you enjoy the story so far, do let me know what you think! ^_^

Oof. by Huinesoron on 2022-05-21 08:48:24 UTC Reply

A sea battle in the North Atlantic? Oof. That sounds like a genuine Roman nightmare.

I feel like it had been a long time since the Romans had to face anyone with a fleet. They controlled the Med, the landings in Britannia were only opposed on land, and the rest of the frontier was land.

hS

Yeah, 'Oof' was kind of what I was going for with this. by Oculus on 2022-05-21 09:11:14 UTC Reply

Saying anything more about the outcome of a Rome vs. Dreopis war would be a spoiler for... pretty much the entire plot of this story, but the battle that this chapter mentions went very badly for both sides.

Not my cup of tea at all, but good for you for doing research. (nm) by Linstar on 2022-05-20 16:43:34 UTC Reply
Update: the first chapter is live! by Oculus on 2022-05-20 13:02:59 UTC Plug Reply

It's a 400-word intro/teaser instead of a proper chapter, and there are no historical minutiae I got caught up on, so this should be all right so far, but I had a friend look at it anyway and she said it works as intended. :)

You can access chapter 1 of Forge of Silver here. Any feedback would be very appreciated.

Romanin' it up. by Huinesoron on 2022-05-20 14:20:33 UTC Reply
My Roman knowledge mostly comes from Rosemary Sutcliff and Steven Saylor, so take this with as many pinches of salt as you please, but let's take a look.
- If you're sailing out of Rutupiae, you're going east. That puts you in the North Sea, and suggests your destination is either northern Germany or somewhere up in Scandinavia. Outside the Empire, most likely. Could even be Orkney or the Shetlands.
- The Romans weren't much for ships, particularly outside the Mediterranean. I'm not sure "battleship" is a safe term to use; apparently they used "long ship", but that's a bit Viking, so "galley" is probably your best option. Concordia is (as I suspect you know ^_~) a genuine Roman ship name.
- A Roman galley would have pulled about 8 knots, assuming they had a following wind. That's about 200 miles a day, or roughly the distance from Rutupiae to Amsterdam. So 'several days' is about right for any of those destinations.
- I assume they would stay in sight of land, either the Gaul-Germania coast or Britannia itself.
- Obvious fact, but women didn't serve in the Legions. ^_~ I know, I know.
- 'Octavia Tertia' is a good Early Imperial name. She would be the third daughter of Octavius, a man of the Octavii gens. Her relatives are holding down many of the great offices of state; the Emperor himself is probably held to be a relative of some sort! (Probably. Augustus was Octavii, but was adopted into the Julii, and then his own son was adopted. But at the least "the Octavii are an imperial gens".)
- Not sure she should have long hair - it's not exactly safe in hand-to-hand combat - but then, Romans did like their hairstyles.
- I am not sure why the Governor (? of Britannia ?) would be going on a diplomatic, military, or trade expedition.
- Tascus is a Roman name, but the man himself is a Gaul. He could be a Gaulish citizen adopted by a Roman line; my vague instinct is that a straight-up barbarian wouldn't be an optio in a full legion, but would be an auxiliary of some kind. Not certain, though, and you've got plenty of wriggle room.
- Dreopis is a strange-looking name. It doesn't feel Roman (the DR in particular stands out), so it's presumably the native name of the island, not even Latinised? Romans being Roman, I would assume they would Latinise it as soon as possible. Deropia or something? I don't speak Latin, so add a few bags to that pinch of salt.
Overall: nothing jumps out as an obvious problem, and I'm intrigued as to where we're going.

hS
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Also, I'm seeking recs as well! by Oculus on 2022-05-20 14:55:20 UTC Reply

Since we're on the topic, I've been really getting into ancient history-themed fiction lately, hence me attempting to write my own. I'd like to ask you folks if you can recommend me any books, movies and/or TV series that deal with ancient Greek and especially with ancient Roman history and mythology, are inspired by it, or reinterpret it (like David Malouf's novel Ransom does with the Iliad, or Autobiography of Red by Anne Carson).

Also, what I would especially like is if someone could give me some recs for online sources where I can research ancient Roman culture in more detail, so I can avoid the really big historical accuracy gaffes with Forge of Silver.

I can think of a handful of recs. by Neshomeh on 2022-05-21 14:35:57 UTC Reply

Gates of Fire by Steven Pressfield tells the story of the 300 at Thermopylae through the eyes of a helot squire. It's gritty, pulling no punches on the gore and abuses suffered by the Spartan army, but you can tell the author genuinely loves the people he's writing about, and each one of them is drawn with realism, humor, and compassion. Which makes their inevitable fate really, really suck. (Of minor note, this novel is where a certain Scythian agent comes from!)

I think the author has also written about Ancient Rome, but I haven't read his other works.

I remember liking what I saw of HBO's Rome, but I only saw about half the first season, I think. Still, it gets good reviews, so it wouldn't hurt to check it out if you can.

Sword at Sunset by Rosemary Sutcliff is a historical take on the Arthurian legend, casting Artos as a son of both Roman and Welsh Celtic culture. It's also wonderfully inclusive, with an acknowledged gay couple in Artos' Companions, very gay subtext between Artos and Bedwyr (taking the part of Lancelot), and Guenhumara (Guinevere) being an active participant in the story, albeit within the bounds of society at the time. There's also a "Little Dark People" who are treated respectfully at least by Artos; their source seems to be mythological "wild men" rather than any historical culture, but they're written as a people who could have actually existed. They remind me of Tolkien's Drúedain.

Sutcliff has other novels following a certain Roman family heirloom, but I haven't read them.

For more general historical fiction, I like Ken Follett. I don't think he's written anything set in Ancient Greece or Rome, but I've really enjoyed everything of his I've read, including the Kingsbridge series and the Century trilogy. World Without End in particular deals with the Black Death, and has a female character being extremely sensible about it (and also bi, I think!), and it's so good.

~Neshomeh

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Rosemary Sutcliffe is fan-tas-tic. by Huinesoron on 2022-05-21 17:36:22 UTC Edited Reply

The series Nesh refers to starts with The Eagle of the Ninth, about a son of a lost centurion trying to learn the fate of his father and the legionary eagle. The series continues with descendents of the pair, down from ~2nd century Roman Britain to after the Norman Conquest in 1066. You might find the first three* bundled together as "Eagle of the Ninth saga" (that's Eagle, The Silver Branch, and The Lantern Bearers), but the rest are well worth a read too.

*Sort of... "Frontier Wolf" actually takes place before Lantern Bearers, but because it was written later it's not deemed part of the trilogy.

"Sword at Sunset" is actually an ancillary part of the series - the descendent is a side character, not the protagonist. I heartily recommend the entire series (plus "The Shining Company", which seems to take place in the same timeline without actually featuring any relatives of the original character).

My other Roman series is "Roma Sub Rosa" by Steven Saylor, which are a long series of Roman murder mysteries. Gordianus the Finder, the detective character, doesn't go to Britain, but he roams most of Italy and ranges further at times. The series spans the late Republic - I think the very last book is the assassination of Caesar.

(I would not particularly recommend "Roma" and "Empire" by the same author. Between them they span over a thousand years, following the same family like Sutcliff, but they just don't click for me.)

hS

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Fun fact... by Oculus on 2022-05-21 16:20:53 UTC Reply

...my copy of Gates of Fire shipped from Better World Books yesterday. :P I do know and like the agent you mentioned very much, and this book has been warmly recommended to me, so I'm really excited to read it (and probably cry like my hamster died at the ending, because I tend to get very attached to well-written characters). Rome has also been on my watchlist, but thanks for the other recs! I've never really been into historical fiction until recently, but I'm always looking to expand my literary horizons.

Thank you for the detailed feedback! by Oculus on 2022-05-20 14:39:07 UTC Edited Reply
Let's see... I'll correct the term I used for the ship, but here's some context for some of the other choices.
- Dreopis is to the south of modern-day Ireland, and a fair distance from the coast. It's an island, so it couldn't be reached by any other means than by ship (hence the Concordia being used here, and the story's description hinting that the military campaign involving Dreopis went very badly for both sides - I know the Roman navy wasn't as prestigious as the legion). The reason they leave from Rutupiae is because the people involved with the mission were all stationed in Londinium (I hope it's a reasonable assumption), so I presumed it would be faster than going cross-country and leaving from the western shore.
- I'm aware women didn't serve in the legion. :P There's a bit in the backstory that explains it, but my reasoning can be boiled down to "I am so not making this story heterosexual".
- I know long hair isn't the most practical battle wear, but that's why she wears it plaited with a helmet on top. I'm willing to do a little history-bending as far as the results aren't glaringly wrong, and I figured this is a smaller detail that I could get away with.
- Now, originally, it wasn't the Governor (of Britannia, yes), but I can't explain the purpose of the mission without spoiling a later plot point. I talked to another PPC history buff, and they told me the Governor is actually the most likely choice for such an assignment, but we'll get there in the next few chapters.
- Tascus is in fact a Gaul who was later adopted and became a Roman citizen, so he uses a Latinized form of his original Gaul name (I used a name generator because I know shpx-all about Gaul names, but I hoped this one would pass). I know he would be a bit more likely to be in the auxilia, but again, I'm willing to do a little history-bending.
- Dreopis is in fact the island's original name, but the Romans wanting to modify it is a good point. I'll see if I can work that into the story.
Thanks for reading! The reason I'm looking for betas is because I don't want to go completely off the rails with the inaccuracies in this story, but I hope I can at least keep it on the plausible side. :)

(Update: I edited this post a bit because I phrased something badly re: Dreopis and ships, but you get where I was going with all this.)
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Have you considered Lemanis? by Huinesoron on 2022-05-21 08:43:09 UTC Reply

I've pulled out my Roman Britain Map, and the road from Londinium to Portus Lemanis (modern Lympne) is basically the same length as the road to Rutupiae. It's better sited for a run west, and was actually built by the navy. Not as cool a name though.

(Bonus fact: if we happen to be in first third of the second century, Lympne is the site of an altar inscription showing that Lucius Aufidius Pantera was the prefect of the Classis Britannia at that time.)

Whichever way you go, I'd probably stop over on the first night at Vectis or Portus Ardaoni - ie, the Isle of Wight or the port sheltered by it. No point night sailing if you can avoid it. You might even get your second night at Isca Dumnoniorum (Exeter) ; apparently the river was navigable. Then you can run the Cornish coast in daylight and head west from there.

(Or you could hop over to Gaul and sail the northern coast instead, but I don't have a map of that one. :D)

hS

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hS, I am in your debt. by Oculus on 2022-05-21 09:06:57 UTC Reply

As I said, I'm not an expert on... pretty much any topic I touch on in the story, so you're helping me a lot with each tiny detail you add to this. The majority of the plot takes place in either Dreopis or in Roman land territories, so I'm skipping the voyage, but it's very useful to actually have an idea of smaller details like a potential route that I can build on. I think I will change the port to Lemanis, as you suggested. And I am aware that an actual person with actual historical records to his name governed Britannia at the time, but the Governor will have a pretty prominent part in this story, and I don't trust myself to portray real-life historical figures accurately, so I'll keep the timeline vague and slap on an 'Alternate History' tag on AO3 to cover my behind. :D

Sorry, Classis Britannia = the navy. by Huinesoron on 2022-05-21 09:09:33 UTC Reply

So whoever it was I pasted in there would be, at least on paper, the person tasking Concordia to the voyage. I have no idea who the governer was, or even when we are (except that we must be post-Boudicca, if the capital is Londinium!).

hS

Oh, right. by Oculus on 2022-05-21 09:15:21 UTC Reply

I mean, my point about not using real-life people still stands, but I'm still puzzling out the logistics of this mission, so I am in sore need of fact-checking. Would you perchance like to help me iron it out? I can't ask you for beta work on this story because I'm aware that it requires a lot of spoons and spare time that not all of us have, but a quick historical vibe check would be a huge help to me. I could send you an email or a message wherever you'd like me to, describing the basic premise for this story (without spoiling the ending or the finer details).

Um, yeah, okay. Email's in the author link profile thing. (nm) by Huinesoron on 2022-05-21 13:26:15 UTC Reply

Thank you! :) (nm) by Oculus on 2022-05-21 13:46:25 UTC Reply