I remember the previous discussion of this.

Subject: I remember the previous discussion of this.
Author: Neshomeh
Posted on: 2024-09-15 19:25:50 UTC

(Here if you missed it.) Mostly I remember dying inside at "Orcelven" and "Horc," both conceptually and linguistically. {X D

In this case, I definitely wouldn't mission it because a) it's a frickin' novel, and b) it was involved in actual legal drama and I don't want to get any on me, but I agree that it raises interesting questions about how the PPC looks at the multiverse. Maybe it's something the Legal Department is involved in? Cuz I don't know that it's ever been the case that the PPC can't operate in original/published fiction, only that it doesn't.

A thought I just had: would removing the Suvians or other issues from an original work make that universe cease to be? Like, hypothetically, if you took out Eragon, would Alagaësia still exist? Or is he the linchpin holding the whole thing together, like a fanfic Suvian keeps the fic together? Maybe that's one reason the PPC doesn't muck about with original works; the Flowers lost their taste for collateral damage a long time ago.

~Neshomeh

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Mission subject questions (involving that one guy who sued the Tolkien estate) by OrangeFox on 2024-09-13 15:58:12 UTC Reply

I know I've brought up the question of whether missioning published badfic works or not, the answer being a 'probably not,' but I recently learned about something that seems like it would, at the very least, seem interesting to touch up on in-universe if not in a mission proper.

An author under the pseudonym Demetrious Polychron published a Lord of the Rings fanfic (called The Fellowship of the King) in 2017 and sold it without issue for a while until the Rings of Power show came out. He had managed, apparently, to copyright his book, and decided to thus sue the Tolkien estate for $250 million over percieved copyright infringement. It's kinda funny. It didn't go through, of course, and he ended up having to remove his books from sale.

Interestingly, from what I can gather from other forums and news on it, the book's existence seemed tolerated (or possibly just unnoticed) for its seven years of existence, published under FractalBooks. It was only when the author pushed his luck that the Tolkien estate bothered with an injunction. Now it mostly exists through a pdf copy used as court evidence, which I thought was pretty neat.

At the very least, if not a mission, I thought it might make for an interesting in-universe conflict where perhaps it is mistaken for a normal badfic and sent off to be killed by agents, perhaps an opportunity to worldbuild on what exactly sets the conceptual lines between bad canon and badfic, whether publication stabilizes the in-universe unraveling effect of badfics and denotes them as canons, etc. I don't know, it just feels like a neat thing that could be touched up on in a meta way. Maybe this could even apply to other published fics than this one? Like the Minecraft one from a whlie ago, or its weird fellow self-published brethren hanging about the Kindle Store.

If nothing else, it's an funny little thing that I'm surprised I only learned about recently.

Oh, look! by Linstar on 2024-09-18 14:57:20 UTC Edited Reply

MasterGhandalf is doing a sporking of FotR over on Das Sporking!

--Ls

Ooh, nice! by Neshomeh on 2024-09-18 19:33:28 UTC Reply

I've been enjoying their work on Partially Kissed Hero (if not the madness between the riffs). I'll look forward to this!

I have now wasted a few hours playing with HeroForge thanks to their sporker bio images, though. {X D

~Neshomeh

I'd also recommend the Batman: Odyssey sporking. by Linstar on 2024-09-18 19:55:52 UTC Reply

Quality insanity, there. And far less creepy and dull than PKH, (albeit not entirely without sexism) so the enjoyment isn't just from the sporker.

--Ls

Maybe the whole "destroy all copies and don't sell any more" thing results in deletion? by Linstar on 2024-09-17 19:22:09 UTC Reply

Wiki article here. I could see some agents frantically rushing to gather materials and some kind of crack team to take on this insane fic, only for the portal generator to give them an Error 404 when they try to get into the fic. I think that would be funny, at least, but I probably wouldn't make it be a mission-mission if I were to mention it in-universe.

--Ls

Or maybe a sort of quarantine? by Neshomeh on 2024-09-17 21:25:42 UTC Reply

(Quarantined Continuum.) Not sure if that applies exactly, since it's not a creator banning fanfiction of a work; rather the work is itself being isolated from canon. But it's not fully deleted, either. So, uh, Isolated Continuum?

Since it's Tolkienverse, I'm imagining the story consigned to the Void with Morgoth. At least he'd have something for "entertainment" in there. {; P

Anyway, could still result in a scramble ending with the destination cut off.

~Neshomeh

Well so, this type of canons are problem for theorists. by Aleksei Annikov, DAS-DAMP on 2024-09-16 13:09:06 UTC Edited Reply

We have ongoing huge argument about how published but unofficial canon should be categorised: is it "ancillary canon"? "Adjunct canon"? Just "badfic"? Lot of people have opinion, and no two opinions match.

But whatever you call it, bigger argument is about how it fits into timeline theory. For myself, I stand by old ACE theory: all Word Worlds are separate universes - canon, badfic, adaptation, it does not matter - and are entangled with each other. Nice and tidy, yes? This fake canon is just other universe leeching off real canon.

Ned, over in DAS-DEFUSE, disagrees. He supports CIn theory (do not ask what it stands for; that is other argument entirely), which says that canon is like rope: goodfics weave in to strengthen it, badfics fray it. So is this just badfic? What if someone writes fanfic of it? You get branching ropes spiralling out to infinity - not good model!

My partner Norlossë says canon is Song: all versions and fics are notes and harmonies to melody. Badfic is discord; PPC smooths it out to restore proper Song. But that means there should be only one Word World, being modified by every fic - so how can we still read original book? Also not good model.

Sister Maria Celeste, who works with Ned, says ACE is not good model, but her objection is philosophical. She says ACE means PPC are not saving real canon, or real characters - just shadows and echoes of them, in tiny doomed universes. "It makes mockery of whole organisation," she said, only she sounded more like Shakespeare at time. Her model has canon cycling, over and over, with characters repeating their stories forever, and badfic changing one cycle: horrible thought, yes? It does not address this problem anyway: is fake canon in same cycle, or separate one?

Actual problem with ACE is same as problem with all other theories: we have no way to quantify if given Word World is "canon", "good", or "bad". People talk about creativity shields proving story is canon, but if these work like people think, why does PPC even need to do Duty at all? It makes no sense. Luckily I have project planned to answer question once and for all, just as soon as Flowering Leek gives me funding I need.

А.А.

If an outsider may opine... by Agent Derik, DMS on 2024-09-16 22:23:11 UTC Reply

I confess, I don't consider myself a man of science, so forgive me if my musings lack your standards of intellectual rigor.

As a Harper, I am delighted by the Eldar conception of Arda as born of song. Whatever the facts from world to world, it's an appealing metaphor. I think that I may be able to expand upon it.

Consider: a Song implies a Singer. That is not to say there must be an equivalent of Eru and the Valar in every universe (I am even less a man of faith than of science), but only that there is something from which the canon as we know it sprang forth. The Singer gives voice to the true Song. Upon hearing the Song—or perhaps merely reading the sheet music (that is the book or other form of the tale)—other musicians may join in. Perhaps they harmonize with the canon, and that is goodfic; perhaps they clash, and that is badfic; perhaps they perform the Song with a new arrangement, and that is an adaptation; perhaps the Song gains additional movements, and those are sequels and prequels.

In all this, the original Song is undiminished, and one may refer to the sheet music at any time to be certain of this. Sheet music, of course, is only a representation of the Song, not the Song itself. But dissonant harmonies distract from it, and enough competition may obscure it entirely. Since it is not possible to hold auditions, the job of the Protectors must be to discern the competent and well-meaning musicians from the incompetent and malicious after the fact, and remove those voices that most detract from the true Song.

The beauty of this metaphor is that it doesn't require the Song itself to be "good" or "bad"; it requires only that those who would join with it are in harmony. One might even make a case for what seems disharmonious to a casual listener—I'm thinking here of jazz, which I admit is not often to my taste—yet still has its own rules, its own order beneath the apparent chaos. Even a strange harmony may enhance something of the original Song, if one takes the time to examine it. Just as the dissonance of Melkor was redeemed by Eru in the Music of Arda.

Of course, all metaphors are imperfect, and I don't doubt this one would unravel if extended far enough. Perhaps that's all right. Living here, I've come to accept that there are aspects of reality beyond my ability to comprehend. What is beyond me, I leave to those with faculties more equal to the task.

—Derik

Yes! This is precisely so. by Norlossë of DAS-DAMP on 2024-09-21 12:33:37 UTC Reply

Friend Derik, you have understood well the theory of the Song, and described its themes in words beyond any I have yet penned. It is as if you have seen into my very thoughts - as if we are singing from the same sheet on this matter.

There is a question ever in my mind, and I would seek your view upon it: can it be that the harmonies and elaborations of which we speak might redeem and glorify even that which is lacking in the Song of a canon? You spoke of Ainulindalë, and of the One's turning of discord into new chord; might it be so, that the flaws first-written can by later voices be harmonised?

I confess, I wish it so: for thus might all canons, even the weakest tunes, be reconciled with the One who sings them; and that One is known by many names, but in DAMP we do speak of the Rose, from whence the multiverses wind forth and to Which they return.

Norlosillë

I'm pleased to be in accord with your thinking. by Agent Derik, DMS on 2024-09-21 18:52:32 UTC Edited Reply

And indeed, I have pondered the same question and come to the same conclusion. For example, take the Twilight series. Everyone agrees its Song deeply flawed, and yet even among the PPC, there are some agents who find beauty in it through the interpretations of others. Even a strong singer can be covered up (or even drawn from their original pitch) if enough people are singing against them, and this is both the danger and the great potential of fan-fiction.

That said, perhaps you've given thought to another question. We agree on the Singer of Canon—the Rose if you like—whose Song inspires its written form, but agents speak of fan-writing as if it creates a discord within the Song just as often as we speak of Suvians or wraiths, which must needs rather be ill-fitting leitmotifs. Yet agents have seemingly witnessed a piece of writing or spoken word effect changes within a tune on innumerable occasions. What explains the apparent reversal of cause and effect? Or is it an illusion? Can a Suvian be both the singer and the sung at once? What of an agent?

I suppose we must posit the existence of our own Songs and our own Singers, but my mind shies from the contemplation of it. Is it easier for one born in Arda?

—Derik

(( Trivia: He's composed enough not to blather about it, but he definitely had a moment of panic, wondering whether he had accidentally read her mind at some point. {; P He realized, A. they probably haven't met, and B. that isn't how his gift works anyway.

(( Also, there's apparently a fairy tale about a singing rose. I'm not sure what the lesson is supposed to be, though, haha. ))

(( Edit: Saving hS from a question he may not be able to answer. ^_^; ))

My friend, you have mis-taken my words. by Sister Maria Celeste, DAS-DEFUSE on 2024-09-16 14:56:08 UTC Reply

The fault is mine for my unclarity, so I pray your indulgence as I correct it.

It is true that the theory I propound speaks of cycles, of the stories of canon repeating endlessly; but so too must yours. If it were not so, how might agents restore the canon, but not find themselves in the same locality as others who have performed similar restorations? As is so often the case, the name of Rivendell must be spoken: do all who perform their Duty in that house of peace encounter Agents Byrd and Thorntree after the restoration? Such would breed madness and confusion, and so there must needs be a cycle to the world. Indeed, such has been proven, if you will only peruse the records of the Bridge incident.

Oft do those who mis-take this theory say that the canon characters are thus devoid of will and agency, yet it is not so; for it is not they who travel the wheel of the story, but only we who read. This is the mystery: that they might travel once the path which we see them tread a score of times or more. As one who was once my salvation would say, it is wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey; but such is Time, with its unending flow and its looping paths.

If once you understand this, all else becomes clear. The characters walk the road of their life but once, from start to finale; but the way they walk it, in the loops we curate as a garden, touches upon their soul at the close. You err to think of "good" and "bad" as reflective of the state of the world: it is the effect on the characters which much be judged, on their spirits and their fates.

Thus do the agents of this PPC observe the characters well, with CAD and CAD alike, gauging the peril in which a story places them. What you care to call 'canonicity' is naught less than the destiny which was set for them at their birth; and it is our solemn privilege to cherish those cycles which will enrich them, and weed out those which would hinder their growth.

There is but one canon; any cycle which would afflict the souls of the characters must be pruned, whether it be "published" or no.

I remain your dutiful friend & correspondant,

S. M. Celeste, Abbess, Convent of San Galileo

A fascinating thesis. by Jenni Robinson, FicPsych on 2024-09-17 04:05:43 UTC Reply

And expressed beautifully! However, I would question a few points.

First, is it not true that the completion of a mission restores the canon so thoroughly it's as though neither badfic nor mission ever took place? Therefore, if Jay and Acacia's missions were indeed successful, then as soon as the portal closed behind them they had never been in Rivendell, and so of course future agents would never encounter them there. The Bridge incident resulted from an unusually pernicious source of corruption which resisted the usual efforts to remove it.

I'll question my own question by adding that canon characters do sometimes seem to retain memories of previous encounters with Suvians and agents, or lives of alternate versions of themselves. Maybe some of this is due to improperly completed missions, but I suspect it's mostly a result of canon damage: in the canons most heavily afflicted by badfic (including spin-offs and would-be sequels of dubious provenance), our efforts to support the canon can only do so much to offset the forces arrayed against it, and things just slip through the cracks.

Second, what of alternate universes? If I understand you right, these are variant cycles of the story wheel? Yet what about individuals who seem to exist in myriad variations across the multiverse, like our own Jacques Bonnefoy—who was himself an alternate Jack Harkness? There are AUs of many universes whose chief point of divergence seems to be the presence of him (comma a version of) in it. I'm frankly at a loss to explain this phenomenon myself. Equally, I cannot easily explain myself—I don't have alternates. I'm not bound to Time and Place in the same way as most, but I'm rarely in two places at once from my own perspective, and never in one place twice (that is, I've never met an alternate version of myself). I have experienced "sundogs" of myself—lesser twins—but they come and go with me. I dream of other-selves sometimes, but they're just dreams; I can't visit them when I wake. Are they real and true from another's point of view even if they aren't from mine?

Because I've said it before and I'll say it again: "reality" is largely a matter of perspective. I like how your theory expresses the ineffable complexity of it.

I think the rope one comes close, too, though! Reminds me of the TVA. They don't do too badly, either, especially since they worked out the subjectivity of their own viewpoint. See, I've always described the multiverse as being composed of "strings" or "cords" all interwoven, but that's a two- or three-dimensional approximation of an n-dimensional perception. Or, as my friend the Harper says, it's another imperfect metaphor.

~Jenni

(( From a meta perspective, I suppose you could say Jenni has a Creativity Shield around her? There are stories about her that happened, and stories about "her" that didn't happen; nothing in between. Because first I decided she was an interdimensional being to justify putting her in various RPs, and then I made it a rule that all her previous borderline-Suvian shenanigans in said RPs were the real her, because I thought it was more interesting and challenging that way. {= ) Also I gave her a twin sister on a couple occasions, but the twin was really just bits of preexisting personality I didn't know how to reconcile, siphoned off so I didn't have to deal with them. Hence, sundogs.

(( ... I think both of my in-character posts have wandered away from the subject of Fellowship of the King. Sorry about that! ))

Did someone say my name? ;) by Jacques Bonnefoy, ESAS on 2024-09-21 17:34:16 UTC Edited Reply

You know, about that across the multiverse thing -- it's been weird lately. I hadn't run into any counterparts for ages -- remember back when it seemed to be happening every other week or so? -- and now, out of nowhere, I've got some kind of Twilight theme going on. Two separate counterparts. One vampire, one shapeshifter whose author apparently knew almost nothing about Jack Harkness and just grabbed a couple characteristics to add to a friend for Leah Clearwater within the pack. They're getting along strangely well. Also eating me out of house and home. Send help.

-J x

((Nope, not kidding, those were both RP concepts a while ago. The werewolf was kind of just sick of the whole canon storyline by the time he'd been in the PPC for a bit, and the vampire had a whole character arc in his home canon essentially regaining a chunk of his humanity despite having the very creepy power of influencing people to like him within a certain proximity to him and not being able to turn it off completely, even once he taught himself how to get it to very low levels, until he gained access to disguises in HQ. Would the two get along? I think they mostly might, out of sheer curiosity about meeting a sort of counterpart. Does this have anything to do with the conversation at hand? Not currently, but Jacques and his counterparts got mentioned, so I figured I might as well :P

Also: Horc XD X'D I remember this published fanfic, if not much detail. Horc is just...exactly the snort I needed today, I think. Glad you put it in your comment below, because I had not remember it. ~Z, hopefully not off topic in an unwelcome way; unfortunately I have to work on an assignment rather than trying to wrap my head properly around the multiversal theory conversation right now))

Only if you're our Jacques Bonnefoy. ;p by Jenni Robinson, FicPsych on 2024-09-22 17:28:11 UTC Reply

As established, that isn't something I have the luxury of taking for granted these days! At least the Meyerpire is easy to tell apart at a glance, what with the marble-white pallor and all. (Which, I'm sorry to say, is not your best look.)

Of course you understand that I would help if I thought it would be, er, helpful. I'm wary of that tendency of Meyerverse people to get quickly and unhealthily fixated. Can you imagine? I afraid it's better if I keep my distance from these two, unless they're already attached to someone back where they come from.

<3

—Jenni

(( I mean, really, can you imagine? {X D ))

I remember the previous discussion of this. by Neshomeh on 2024-09-15 19:25:50 UTC Reply

(Here if you missed it.) Mostly I remember dying inside at "Orcelven" and "Horc," both conceptually and linguistically. {X D

In this case, I definitely wouldn't mission it because a) it's a frickin' novel, and b) it was involved in actual legal drama and I don't want to get any on me, but I agree that it raises interesting questions about how the PPC looks at the multiverse. Maybe it's something the Legal Department is involved in? Cuz I don't know that it's ever been the case that the PPC can't operate in original/published fiction, only that it doesn't.

A thought I just had: would removing the Suvians or other issues from an original work make that universe cease to be? Like, hypothetically, if you took out Eragon, would Alagaësia still exist? Or is he the linchpin holding the whole thing together, like a fanfic Suvian keeps the fic together? Maybe that's one reason the PPC doesn't muck about with original works; the Flowers lost their taste for collateral damage a long time ago.

~Neshomeh