Hold on a sec, guys.

Subject: Hold on a sec, guys.
Author: Neshomeh
Posted on: 2012-04-27 17:31:00 UTC

EF and SS:

First of all, I'm really, really not sure why you're picking on the Muggle-use wand and a paper-knife as weapons. The whole point of the Muggle-use wand is that anyone can use it. They're handed out to the fanlings who go to OFUM, and they're available in HQ for agents going into Potterverse missions. They're not hard to use. And... it's a paper-knife. It's not exactly the most effective weapon known to man, and I kinda thought that was the point. Imagine trying to fight off a warrior!Sue with a letter-opener! Also, anyone can get one of those out of a mail-order catalog, so they're not exactly rare and wondrous mystical Sue items.

Aside from that, where else are these alleged sparkles coming from? SS, you mentioned speaking multiple languages. Okay, maybe some clarification is needed there: how many languages, which ones, and how fluent is she? But I don't see anything else that screams "Sue" to me, and a single exaggerated characteristic does not a Sue make. The remaining points in your summary are being "a loud nerd" who wears "clothing that might be described as a bit gothic." You'll need to explain how those are Sueish traits, or else explain why you chose to list them as such, because I don't get it.

Also, EF, please explain how Skelter is "only a bit better" and Jack is okay. Or were you unaware of Jack? There might be something in questioning Skelter's originality, but if you're going to make an issue of the concept, you might want to notify PitViperOfDoom, since she did it first.

Finally, I feel a point of clarification is necessary: fangirl does not equal Sue. The bubbliest, squeeingest, glompingest fanthing is still a perfectly legitimate agent concept, provided the author realizes that the character's attitude is likely to go over like a lead balloon with most other agents. This then creates conflict, and conflict is good. Conflict leads to humor, character growth, and all sorts of other things.

That said, there's one point I do agree with, and that's that it might not be a good idea to have two characters like this as a pair unless they have very different interests. While someone losing control during a mission (and getting in trouble for it!) is funny maybe once or twice, it shouldn't happen all the time, or the pair is incompetent.

TL;DR - nitpicking much?

~Neshomeh

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Permission question? by AnnaBee on 2012-04-27 05:34:00 UTC Reply

Do you have to get Permission for each new set of agents? 'Cos I have a set I think I'd like better than Vernet and Mundar.

For reference, the profiles. by AnnaBee on 2012-04-27 11:36:00 UTC Reply

Lola: A sixteen-or-seventeen year old girl from World One. Looks like Velma from Scooby-Doo, only she's blonde and slightly better dressed. Short, chubby, round-faced, bespectacled... Tends to wear black t-shirts, jeans, combat boots, and fingerless gloves. Lola is bright, but not the most socially ept of souls, and it shows. She's overly excitable, a bit of a spaz, dogmatic, fangirly, and a babbler. Often 'downloads' at people, rambling on and on about random, minor facts no one tends to care about. MASSIVE Potterhead, Whovian, and obsessed with a few other fandoms no one knows anything about. (E.G. the Gammage Cup.) She tends to speak in all manner of other languages and quotes. Says 'Allons-y' a lot. Enjoys writing charge lists. Loud, opinionated, and bookish. Easily grossed out by smut, gore, and other nastiness, though she has a bit of a penchant for GOOD slash. In a co-dependent relationship with her laptop, which she named 'Spot' after Dairine's computer. Her favorite weapon is a Muggle-Use wand, backed up by a paper-knife replica of Gandalf's sword. Her favorite music- since it seems to come up so much- is '80s synth pop, goth rock from the '80s, Vocaloid, and the Myst soundtrack. LO's include the Tenth Doctor, Rory Williams, Jack Harkness, Sherlock Holmes, Tony Stark, Roy Mustang, Harry Potter, and Alfred F. Jones.

Skelter: A Smoker zombie from the Left 4 Dead continuum. He looks... frankly, disgusting. Large, disgusting, tumorous pustules cover half his face and blob along his arms, and a fetid odor surrounds him. He's extremely tall- nearly six foot- and lanky, with wild black hair and sunken, glassy eyes. Twitches nervously a lot- his most defining nervous tic is that he'll occasionally lick various parts of his face with his several-foot-long tongue. The mehfic he was in granted him sentience, but he still has to refrain from eating people. Fortunately for the world, he's laid-back and has decent amounts of willpower... but he can't always shake the urge to climb to a high place, grab a passerby, and om nom nom nom. Skelter is upbeat and more than a bit ADD. He is the EPITOME of fanboy... even in his continuum, he'd almost rather find a comic book shop than a Survivor camp, and he nicknamed the members of his zombie crew after superheroes. (The Witch was PMS Avenger.) He's optimistic, stubborn, shy, and geeky. He coughs and wheezes a lot, and is equipped with a translator so that people other than the undead can understand him. Oh, and he's kinda gay- he's from a Smoker X Hunter fic, which explains a lot. Musical tastes include Muse, Coldplay, All-American Rejects, and Gorillaz; LO's include all three New!Who Doctors, Captain Jack Harkness, Wolverine, Hal Jordan, and Mal Reynolds. If he's within range of ANY of these people, he must be restrained unless you WANT them caught in an Awkward Zombie Hug. (Especially for Mal and Wolverine, that would not end well.) Fighting style: He grabs people with his extremely long tongue and strangles them.

TL;DR: Lola is me, Skelter is a zombie fanboy.

Hmm by ShatteredSanity on 2012-04-27 16:09:00 UTC Reply

Well, I can sort of see where Ellipsis is coming from with Lola. This is what I got from her:
She's a loud nerd, speaks multiple languages, wears clothing that might be described as a bit gothic, and can use a muggle-use wand AND a paper-knife.

Where did she learn so many languages? Why would a spazzy fan girl learn how to use a knife or a muggle use wand?

See, these things raise Sue alarms. I can see where you're coming from though, and I think if you toned her down a bit, it might work.
Maybe she could be a former badfic writer? She could have written a Harry Potter badfic, got sent to the Harry Potter Fanfic Academy (Yes, you can say an OC went there without actually having been apart of it), learned of the PPC, and wanted to make up for her past mistakes. She could have learned where to use a muggle-use wand there.
As for flaws, the constant talking and being so opinionated could make her a bit of a fanbrat, which would be interesting to see as an agent.

As for Skelter, he seems like he would work, but I don't recommend having two really fanboy/girlish agents in a pair, unless they're fans of different canons. Both of them are fans of Doctor Who, which would be trouble if they were assigned a mission there. Skelter might try to glomp the Doctor, while Lola might try to join in. I recommend giving one of the pair some restraint when dealing with LOs.

I see potential, they just need a bit more work.

Well,,, by AnnaBee on 2012-04-27 16:30:00 UTC Reply

I actually am autistic. Mildly, to be sure (this is where teh downloading and the spasticness comes from), but the 'perks' include the ability to speak a bunch of languages- though not always to understand what people are trying to say in ANY of them.

You know what? Screw the Muggle-use wand, AND the knife. It's too much trouble. What sorts of weapons WOULD a spazzy fangirl learn how to use at the PPC?

Ehhh... Well... after sleeping on it, I *did* come up with an alternate backstory for Skelter... He used to be a completely human Agent, no zombiness at all, when on a particularly bad mission to the L4D continuum, BOOM, he got Infected. Now, they brought him back and got him to Medical right away, but he'd already started to turn. Sufficiently Advanced Technology let him keep some of his mind, but... Physically, he's screwed.

Hmmm... Perhaps, especially when the Doctor is concerned, Lola has had enough No-Drool videos to last a lifetime? Easily squicked, remember? XD Where Skelter is NOT easily squicked, and on top of it, is a ZOMBIE?

Just throwing ideas out here, they might all suck.

Weapons by ShatteredSanity on 2012-04-27 17:27:00 UTC Reply

Well, I guess they might try and figure out a muggle use wand, but they might not be very good with it.

Hold on a sec, guys. by Neshomeh on 2012-04-27 17:31:00 UTC Reply

EF and SS:

First of all, I'm really, really not sure why you're picking on the Muggle-use wand and a paper-knife as weapons. The whole point of the Muggle-use wand is that anyone can use it. They're handed out to the fanlings who go to OFUM, and they're available in HQ for agents going into Potterverse missions. They're not hard to use. And... it's a paper-knife. It's not exactly the most effective weapon known to man, and I kinda thought that was the point. Imagine trying to fight off a warrior!Sue with a letter-opener! Also, anyone can get one of those out of a mail-order catalog, so they're not exactly rare and wondrous mystical Sue items.

Aside from that, where else are these alleged sparkles coming from? SS, you mentioned speaking multiple languages. Okay, maybe some clarification is needed there: how many languages, which ones, and how fluent is she? But I don't see anything else that screams "Sue" to me, and a single exaggerated characteristic does not a Sue make. The remaining points in your summary are being "a loud nerd" who wears "clothing that might be described as a bit gothic." You'll need to explain how those are Sueish traits, or else explain why you chose to list them as such, because I don't get it.

Also, EF, please explain how Skelter is "only a bit better" and Jack is okay. Or were you unaware of Jack? There might be something in questioning Skelter's originality, but if you're going to make an issue of the concept, you might want to notify PitViperOfDoom, since she did it first.

Finally, I feel a point of clarification is necessary: fangirl does not equal Sue. The bubbliest, squeeingest, glompingest fanthing is still a perfectly legitimate agent concept, provided the author realizes that the character's attitude is likely to go over like a lead balloon with most other agents. This then creates conflict, and conflict is good. Conflict leads to humor, character growth, and all sorts of other things.

That said, there's one point I do agree with, and that's that it might not be a good idea to have two characters like this as a pair unless they have very different interests. While someone losing control during a mission (and getting in trouble for it!) is funny maybe once or twice, it shouldn't happen all the time, or the pair is incompetent.

TL;DR - nitpicking much?

~Neshomeh

Never heard of Jack. by Ellipsis Flood on 2012-04-27 20:37:00 UTC Reply

It's mostly a matter of how well it's executed.

Skelter could be an in-name-only zombie (since most of the description went into his fanboyishness) or a well-rounded character whose state strongly affects how he interacts with people.

About Lola, there wasn't really any context, or backstory, about how she got to these skills, if she started out as being AnnaBee. The OFU sounds like a good idea, but out of nowhere, it's a bit out of nowhere. Another thing is that bubbly, hyper personality is seen in Sues from time to time, and this too, is highly depending on how it's executed and how other characters react to it.

Just wanted to make sure these points were, well, pointed out and that AnnaBee's aware of them. Knowing is half the battle, as it says, and the root to writing a good character is to take their characteristics and run with them. To the very end. And back.

So... by Neshomeh on 2012-04-27 21:25:00 UTC Reply

See also my responses below, but if the issues are potential execution and lack of context, then the appropriate response would be to ask questions about how these things would be executed and about their context, yes? Not to immediately accuse the character of being sparkly without knowing the context or how the character will be executed?

Also: "but out of nowhere, it's a bit out of nowhere."

...

Maybe you'd like to make that argument differently?

~Neshomeh

Ah by ShatteredSanity on 2012-04-27 19:23:00 UTC Reply

I was under the impression that Muggle-use wands were, well, wands that could be used by muggles. I assumed that they had the same amount of power and were just as dangerous as regular wands. As for the paper-knife, yeah, I don't have an excuse.

The list I made was not a list of Sue traits I saw in Lola, but a summery of how I read the character as a whole. Being a loud nerd does not a Sue make.

The language thing I read as knowing a lot of languages and being able to speak them fluently. Which seems like a bit of a Sueish trait. Now that I have clarification however, this seems fine.

I didn't mean to nitpick, and I'm sorry if I came across that way.

Okay. by Neshomeh on 2012-04-27 20:12:00 UTC Reply

Let me see if I can explain why it came off that way. Part of it is that both you and EF touched on some of the same things, which made it seem like sort of a joint assault on what looked like pretty small details to me. Also, you both jumped straight to questioning the existence and/or quality of character details, rather than asking questions about them, if that makes sense. Not, "If she has a Muggle-use wand, did she go to HFA?" but rather, "How is it possible that someone like her could have this thing?" It's the "someone like her" qualifier that's problematic. To quote your actual words, troublesome qualifiers highlighted:

EF: She can, for ~~somerising~~ some reason, use a Muggle use wand.

Apparently this agent's ability to use a Muggle-use wand is in question. How come she needs a special reason? Do other agents need a reason, or just this one?

SS: Why would a spazzy fan girl learn how to use a knife or a muggle use wand?

Again, it seems the real issue is that this character is a spazzy fangirl, and spazzy fangirls need to justify having an interest in using this type of equipment. Does anyone else need to?

If Muggle-use wands were overpowered, or rare, or otherwise inappropriate in and of themselves, that should be problematic for any agent, not just one with Lola's traits. Same with the letter-opener, the languages, etc. These details are not actually the problem in and of themselves, but by questioning them in this way, you're casting doubt on the entire character. Poking at small things in order to get at a larger problem is nitpicking; the trouble here is that neither the details nor the bigger thing (the whole character concept) are actually problematic once explained. Which comes off badly.

I'm not at all sure I've explained this very well. Let me know if I'm not making sense.

~Neshomeh

Thanks, Nesh. by AnnaBee on 2012-04-27 19:03:00 UTC Reply

You rule. Seriously.

Okay. Clarification-wise:

THIS AGENT IS ME. I believe Phobos suggested that next time I run an agent, I use myself. So, I decided to run myself and an OC of mine.

The whole point of the Muggle-use wand and the letter-opener is that they're weapons I could see myself using. I could NEVER use a broadsword or a longbow. Heck, I'm not sure I could even use a gun! I KNOW how to use a wand, though, and the letter opener is for continuua where the wand isn't allowed. >.> Plus... if I remember right, don't Muggle-Use wands only have a few spells loaded into them?

Languages-wise: French, Japanese, Latin, and a wee bit of German and Chinese. Fluency level: High for French, though my spoken French is rotten and ungrammatical. Moderate for Latin, though Eru help her if she ever runs into, say, Romans. She can pick out the meaning of an inscription, though she'll probably get it horribly wrong. Japanese, three steps above 'fangirl'. I've taken a class, I can say 'the camel of my auntie has fallen into the mirage', and I can read the alphabet, but that's about it.

I actually DO dress like that! :P In real life. Almost every day. So I guess that makes me goffik, then? :o And loud and nerdy is pretty much the definition of me. >.> *needs to work on the loud part*

I came up with Skelter before Jack... but Jack gave me the idea of putting Skel into the PPC. >///> No infringement intended here.

Re: Thanks, Nesh. by Crimson Flight on 2012-04-28 09:14:00 UTC Reply

So you can read Japanese? Kana or Kanji?

Mostly Kana. by AnnaBee on 2012-04-28 10:42:00 UTC Reply

My knowledge of hiragana is pretty good, I have a working knowledge of katakana, and I know a few of the more common kanji.

As I said- first semester college Japanese. Not anything special. I can make my way through a kid's book with a dictionary.

Wands by Neshomeh on 2012-04-27 19:26:00 UTC Reply

The HFA ones (HFA, not OFUM, what is wrong with me) only have the five spells, yeah. Unless you also count the ability to shoot sparks, I guess. The PPC ones are known to be more versatile—I had Agent Supernumerary use his to do a Full Body Bind and some levitation in his first mission, and there's an uncited line in the wiki article about using them in place of neuralyzers for memory modification. I fully support this and would love to find the story/ies where it happened so citation can happen.

And yeah, I'm pretty sure anyone could pick one up and get the hang of it without too much trouble. If Nume can use one without poking his own eye out, anyone can. ... 'Course, that in mind, it would be even more funny if Lola just can't quite get it right. *g*

~Neshomeh

I'm thinking pumpkins. by AnnaBee on 2012-04-27 19:47:00 UTC Reply

As in, Witches Abroad Magrat Garlick. :)

Oh, that's EXACTLY what I was thinking. by AnnaBee on 2012-04-27 17:31:00 UTC Reply

This is the PPC. Magic runs on the Rule of Funny. Who WANTS your character to be good at everything? That's dead boring!

Also. You like my idea about Skel's new-and-improved-shiny backstory? Either or will work.

I'm nooot really sure about these two. by Ellipsis Flood on 2012-04-27 12:35:00 UTC Reply

Lola sparkles. I can see where you wanted to go with her, but she's less "you," and more "you, just better." She can, for ~~somerising~~ some reason, use a Muggle use wand. Where did she learn that? And she has a neat little Gandalf sword thing... are you sure you can fight with a paper knife?
The only negative trait I see is that she has a tendency to be annoying.

Skelter is... only a bit better. He's an L4D zombie almost in name only. If he was that messed up, wouldn't the agents PPCing the mission have killed him?

Perhaps... by AnnaBee on 2012-04-27 13:16:00 UTC Reply

I can write them in action, and you can see if they're too sparkly or not?
... :c by AnnaBee on 2012-04-27 12:40:00 UTC Reply

Does she really sparkle? Really? Spammit. :( I tried not to make her sparkle too much.

I was thinking she'd been at the PPC for a bit, and possibly also a stint at the Harry Potter fanfiction academy. *Has written some bad Potterverse fanfic, soooo...* Of course I can get rid of it.

Problem with me-as-agent is that I can't fight at all, so... I can replace her weapons with something more conventional.

And negative traits, I have those in abundance. Arrogant, pig-headed, a bit of a show-off... *just realizes she failed to put those in the description, and facepalmeth*

As for Skel... I'm thinking he's one of those Agents who fell through a plot hole. If they don't work, I can easily go back to Vernet and Mundar, I just... like these two better.

In the future, please consider consulting the wiki first. by JulyFlame on 2012-04-27 06:49:00 UTC Reply

The page on permission answers your question.
Nope. You only need permission once. (nm) by Phobos on 2012-04-27 05:37:00 UTC Reply

Fantastic! by AnnaBee on 2012-04-27 05:56:00 UTC Reply

I have a pair of agents that a) do not have ANY of the problems associated with Holmes, and b) are adorkables.

Jack the L4D Hunter may have a new friend.

Please, make him a Boomer. by SeaTurtle on 2012-04-27 06:30:00 UTC Reply

Everybody's reaction would just be priceless.

Joking aside, how do you manage with a zombie partner? I mean, they're walking, rotting, virus-laced (though Medical would probably whip up a cure real fast) corpses!

...but I guess that's half the joke, innit?

Smoker, sorry. by AnnaBee on 2012-04-27 11:26:00 UTC Reply

Which is actually still kinda funny, 'cause of that TONGUE. Some people lick their lips- Skelter's got the awkward tic of licking his WHOLE DARN FACE.

He's also a massive fanboy- I mean MASSIVE- to the point where he'd ALMOST rather find a comic book shop than a survivor camp, massive. He's twitchy, ADD, impulsive, oddly cheerful, spastic, a Wolverine fanboy, a HUGE Whovian, fond of making daft puns and nicknaming everyone after superheroes, socially inept, manic to the point of borderline insanity-

And yes, he's a walking- no, a LURCHING- rotting, boil-covered corpse with a multi-foot-long tongue, homicidal urges, and a habit of making disgusting choking noises to communicate. Due to his mehfic of origin, he retained some level of sapience. Thanks to Sufficiently Advanced Technology, he is no longer contagious and he is equipped with a translator so people who AREN'T the walking dead can understand him.

Basically, he's your average nerdy comic book fanboy, stuck in a Smoker's body, with ALL the limitations that pertain to it. Including being generally nasty, and not understanding why it grosses people out; occasionally seeing big, juicy steaks where people should be; and an urge to get up in high places, grab people with his tongue, and eat them.

And since my other agent is basically me... she's had to get, um, 'tolerant' fast. More on that later.