Re: Being a god doesn't make you automatically immortal.

Subject: Re: Being a god doesn't make you automatically immortal.
Author: firemagic
Posted on: 2012-03-31 15:15:00 UTC

Er, the point about Kriemhild Gretchen and Walpurgisnacht is this: Walpurgisnacht is almost unkillable. In the end, the only thing that CAN defeat it is a major overwriting of reality that erases the witches themselves from time. Kriemhild Gretchen--well, let's say this. Witches, going by Sayaka, tend to be a bit stronger than their Puella Magi originals. Kriemhild Gretchen came from Madoka, who essentially made a wish to overwrite reality, transcend cause-and-effect, erase herself from existence, and become a goddess/one of the underlying forces of reality/the concept of Hope itself. And Walpurgisnacht KEEPS GETTING STRONGER. And she can manifest without a barrier, and when she first showed up on the radar in episode 11, everyone thought she was a freak supercell. Also, Homura can't turn into WPN because Homura's witch form is called Homulilly (revealed in the game.) And making WPN hibernate would break canon, so... Yeah, the best bet is finding a Grief Seed or having a DoSAT replacement.

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A question on Madoka (Warning: Spoilers) by firemagic on 2012-03-30 01:15:00 UTC Reply

All right, so I have found a fanfic that I mean to mission. It involves a Character Replacement, who needs to be killed, but is about to fall into despair, which is a death sentence to Puella Magi, since it means they will turn into horrific monsters, and this particular fic makes the replaced character turn into the Queen of Witches, Walpurgisnacht, who is pretty much unbeatable. It is possible to stop the falling-into-despair with a Grief Seed, which is dropped by a witch after she is defeated.

So, my agents will need to semi-purify the replacement to keep her from destroying everything, so: Is it possible for Medical or DoSAT to make artificial Grief Seeds, that don't require the death of a young girl and can be safely disposed in the canon? And, if the consensus is that it shouldn't be possible, what would be a good alternative?

I don't know the canon ... by Antigone68104 on 2012-03-30 14:12:00 UTC Reply

... but you're talking about a Character Replacement, so I'm guessing this fall is something the real character wouldn't do? Maybe your agents could try a modified exorcism; beating the replacement over the head with canon materials to make it act more like the real character. Then, once it won't drop into despair (or pulls out of despair), kill it.

Re: I don't know the canon ... by Shadow on 2012-03-30 18:21:00 UTC Reply

Basically, Canon!Homura was slipping towards despair because despite all her efforts to save Madoka, all that happened was that the consequences of Madoka going witchy got more apocalyptic and Madoka herself got more passive and insecure. She was getting dangerously close to the edge during her battle with Walpurgisnacht, but I suspect she would have shot her Soul Gem rather than become a witch; despite what the Suethor says, she wants to protect Madoka, and creating a time-traveling magical psycho-stalker would not be a good way to do that.

Sue-Walpy is a terrifying thought by Shadow on 2012-03-30 01:40:00 UTC Reply

It'd be worse than Sakhmet Black and that one who possessed Arda put together. ._. Could you find a pre-existing Grief Seed? Like, say, "borrow" one from someone canonical or grab one dropped by a familiar or something? Or if the fic mentioned one that didn't get brought up again, maybe an agent could nick it once the narrative forgot it existed?

Re: Sue-Walpy is a terrifying thought by firemagic on 2012-03-30 01:45:00 UTC Reply

No, the fic is a one-shot. It's basically, what if Madoka DIDN"T leave the shelter on the night of the storm? Well, according to the fic, Homura would start hating Madoka and turn into a witch to spite her (not even using the CANONCICALLY GIVEN REASON that she would realize that she's only been making everything worse) There's no familiar battles, and no witches other than Walpurgis.

Lolwut by Shadow on 2012-03-30 06:14:00 UTC Reply

That is... astonishingly stupid. :/

Another idea: wouldn't the real Homura probably have some Grief Seeds with her? I bet Kyubei ate the ones Sayaka was refusing to use, but it seems unlike Homerun-chan not to have some in that Hammerspace buckler of hers. And I can't remember- did we ever find out what happened to Oktavia's Grief Seed? 'cause if it's still lying around, that seems like it also might be a possibility. *random ideas*

According to Puella Magi wiki... by firemagic on 2012-03-30 13:10:00 UTC Reply

The Grief Seeds either unused or with an unknown owner are:
Charlotte (which Homura took, but was never seen using)
Oktavia, but no one was seen taking it either, so it's pretty much MIA
Elsa Maria (which I think Kyoko took)
The Witch of the Netherlands (The Seed Homura gave to Sayaka, who refused it, and Homura probably still has it)
Thing is, I have no idea how you would get the Seeds AWAY from Homuhomu. She seems pretty willing to fall into despair (another sign of replacement)

Re: According to Puella Magi wiki... by Data Junkie on 2012-03-30 18:29:00 UTC Reply

Perhaps PPC agents are why Oktavia's Seed is MIA? I'm sure DoSAT could do up artificial Seeds, but they'd probably need a real one to base it on first.

Alternatively, you could kill the replacement before she gets all Witchy. It'd be a pain in the ass, but then so would facing down Walpy. Especially sue!Walpy
Open portal to Homura's hammerspace and then steal the Seeds by Sergio Turbo on 2012-03-30 16:38:00 UTC Reply

Then use then to de-grief Not!Homura.

Otherwise... Airstike?

Don't you need coordinates to get someplace? by firemagic on 2012-03-30 20:10:00 UTC Reply

Plus, how would you FIND the seeds? They fit in the palm of your hand, and Homura has at least one battleship stored in there.

I forgot one thing. by Sergio Turbo on 2012-03-31 08:08:00 UTC Reply

Having PPC Agents wade into Homura's hammerspace and finding plenty of weird stuff in there would actually be a perfect example of PPC humour, I think.

Battleship? Check. An entire army's worth of weapons? Check. Ghosts of Razgriz limited edition F-14s? Check. Action figure of Madoka? Check. Everything but the kitchen sink? Check. The kitchen sink itself? Obviously.
A... Battleship? by Sergio Turbo on 2012-03-30 21:35:00 UTC Reply

Now I understand why she is called Hommando.

Damn, a battleship. And I thought that stealing fighter jets was irrealistic even for PPC standards.

At this point, if an Ace Combat/Madoka crossover is out there needing to be sporked, there's no need for my Agents to bring in their F-22s.

Homura's probably got an entire squadron of fighters in there too.

An airstrike wouldn't work on Walpurgisnacht. by Shadow on 2012-03-30 17:53:00 UTC Reply

Homura threw enough explosives at her to stock an entire missile base, drove a truck into her, and even somehow stole a freaking battleship, and Walpy didn't even seem to notice.

But what I meant is that since this is an obvious character replacement, maybe the REAL Homura (the one stuck in a plot hole somewhere) would be able to hand some over.

Oh, I see. by Sergio Turbo on 2012-03-30 21:49:00 UTC Reply

That sounds like a good plan.

And witches from Madoka are too strong, dammit. I managed to get hold of F-22s only to discover that they don't help much whit magical canons. (They're no good in Nanoha too.)

Next time, ADF-01F Falken. Still from Ace Combat.

Laser gun. Powerful enough to bring down every kind of boss (including a freaking GIANT SATELLITE RAILGUN ARMED WITH NUKES) in less than a second. A beam lasts eight seconds. Depending on the game, you've got 14 to 24 shots.

Homura, bring it back here! It took me forever to unlock it and earn enough points to buy it! *chases after Hommando*

Walpy is basically Cthulhu if he was into theater. by Shadow on 2012-03-30 22:22:00 UTC Reply

...I wonder if that's where Homura got the battleship idea?

At any rate, she's the only one in the story who's that powerful; most of the other witches go down with enough heavy ordinance/Unlimited Musket Works/stabbing. Except Kriemhild Gretchen. But since she's basically Azathoth, she doesn't count.

Now I see my problem. by Sergio Turbo on 2012-03-31 08:17:00 UTC Reply

I am one of the few people who thinks that even Cthulhu is killable, given enough time and weapons.

After all, Lovecraft had no idea of the weapons that exist now. And in some canons there are even more powerful ones.

I want to see Cthulhu taking a Wave Motion Gun or an Arc-en-ciel and still be unscathered.

Re: Now I see my problem. by Antigone68104 on 2012-03-31 17:01:00 UTC Reply

I have a first-printing "Deities and Demigods" for AD&D -- the edition with the Cthulhu, Nehwon, and Melnibonean mythoi (that TSR didn't exactly have the rights to use). I've seen powergamer groups decide to rack up plenty of experience points by chanting "Hastur" until he showed up.

But that's just one set of numbers vs another. The reality (if that's the right word) should be far more impressive. And from my admittedly limited reading, Cthulhu isn't an idiot -- if he starts actually taking damage from a given set of puny mortals, he's not hanging around to let them finish destroying his current extension into 3-D space.
He could, easily by Data Junkie on 2012-03-31 08:33:00 UTC Reply

The thing about Cthulhu is that you're essentially saying "I wonder what would happen if I fired a Wave Motion Gun at a god." It's pretty much explicitly stated in canon to be undying. You do enough damage, and he just hibernates.

Azathoth is even worse, because even if you did find a way to kill him, the universe would unravel.

Being a god doesn't make you automatically immortal. by Sergio Turbo on 2012-03-31 09:32:00 UTC Reply

God of War is a good example (Well, it would be if it wasn't so disgustingly violent). Then we have Gurren Lagann.

Yeah, canonically stated to be immortal is quite of an obstacle, but I am a firm believer in "With enough force of will (and the right gear), nothing is impossible."

*jumps on Falken* Bring it on, giant squid!

/crazymodeoff Well, if that thing is immortal, making it hibernate is still a victory, I think. When it unfreezes, humanity should have evolved enough to kick its ass even more easily. Or we are extinct, in which case it's not longer our problem.

Re: Being a god doesn't make you automatically immortal. by firemagic on 2012-03-31 15:15:00 UTC Reply

Er, the point about Kriemhild Gretchen and Walpurgisnacht is this: Walpurgisnacht is almost unkillable. In the end, the only thing that CAN defeat it is a major overwriting of reality that erases the witches themselves from time. Kriemhild Gretchen--well, let's say this. Witches, going by Sayaka, tend to be a bit stronger than their Puella Magi originals. Kriemhild Gretchen came from Madoka, who essentially made a wish to overwrite reality, transcend cause-and-effect, erase herself from existence, and become a goddess/one of the underlying forces of reality/the concept of Hope itself. And Walpurgisnacht KEEPS GETTING STRONGER. And she can manifest without a barrier, and when she first showed up on the radar in episode 11, everyone thought she was a freak supercell. Also, Homura can't turn into WPN because Homura's witch form is called Homulilly (revealed in the game.) And making WPN hibernate would break canon, so... Yeah, the best bet is finding a Grief Seed or having a DoSAT replacement.

I was talking about Cthulhu now. by Sergio Turbo on 2012-03-31 17:11:00 UTC Reply

About Walpy-thing, I can say only one thing: Homura used what would have been my plan too.

If that didn't work... I give up. There's no way we can take that thing down as PPC Agents, except maybe Sun Crushers.

But that has the little side effect of wiping out the entire solar system, so... Yeah.

So, go for the De-Grief Not!Homura Before Removing Her route.

And tomorrow I'll start watching Madoka, so I'll stop saying stupid things.

Or... by Shadow on 2012-03-31 22:05:00 UTC Reply

...just shoot her Soul Gem before she can transform. But that's nowhere NEAR as fun a story.
Which was my original plan. by firemagic on 2012-03-31 18:39:00 UTC Reply

Except we still have the original question: Can DoSAT make an artificial Grief Seed?

I don't know. (nm) by Sergio Turbo on 2012-03-31 18:51:00 UTC Reply

Accidentally clicked the "post" button. by Sergio Turbo on 2012-03-31 18:57:00 UTC Reply

I was going to say, since DoSAT works mainly with technology, it's unlikely they can produce those directly.

However, they have all the tools necessary to replicate one if given to them. Otherwise, any Puella Magi recruited would be a contestant for the "Shortest lived PPC Agent" award.

And I'm even afraid that the first ones recruited instead had only a self-destruct mechanism applied to the Soul Gem that destroyed it when Witch transformation was imminent. (Still going to be standard issue, I think. A Witch in HQ would mean Emergency, and we don't want those)

Well, if it's post-series... by Shadow on 2012-04-01 00:43:00 UTC Reply

Thanks to Godoka, instead of becoming witches, Puella Magi just disappear when their Soul Gems are completely corrupted. But they still wouldn't last long without whatever keeps them alive in the new timeline. (Was that ever specified? I was too busy bawling my eyes out to pay close attention.)

Re: Well, if it's post-series... by Firemagic on 2012-04-01 02:58:00 UTC Reply

Well, they use 'grief cubes' that are dropped by demons. As I understand when Madoka saves a Puella, then all the darkness in their Gem is sort of released into the universe. Eventually it will collect into a lump of grief that takes the form of the demons, who will eat despairing humans like the witches did. When demons die, then they drop a couple cubes, which can be used to recharge the Soul Gem. I imagine that if a Puella in the PPC turns their gem completely black, Madokami will appear, since, you know, she wished to be in every world.

Hmm... How does this sound: Once DoSAT gets ahold of a Grief Seed, they can create an artificial holder (a Grief Sphere?) that, when filled up, can be tossed into Madoka, where the despair will release itself into the general universe. No Incubators or battles needed.

Finally saying something after having watched the series. by Sergio Turbo on 2012-04-01 18:22:00 UTC Reply

Yeah, Madokami just solved a quite of troubles.

And by "quite", I mean "she saved her universe, the PPC and the rest of the multiverse too from witches"

(Why the multiverse? Think about the troubles that would cause a Puella Magi Agent if becomes a witch during a mission in another continua. Not good.)

An, is this an impression of mine, but after Madoka decides to rewriteher universe Kyubey is a bit more sympathetic?

Not that this doesn't make the 7th level of Homura Combat any less satysfing.

Hint: You play as Homura, and this level is set in her house. Only Homura, her weapons, and a bunch of QBs. Doing it with a rocket launcher and seeing Incubators blasted everywhere is cathartic.

Yes, they are, and Homura even mentions it. by Shadow on 2012-04-02 03:05:00 UTC Reply

In the first set of timelines, it was in the Incubators' interest to be deceptive and allow at least a significant portion of Puella Magi to fall into despair, since witches can snowball the amount of power available. Post-rewrite, it's in their interest to keep as many Puella Magi alive and fighting as possible, since now a despairing Puella is a straight-up loss. Consequently, Kyubei goes from fluffy Mephistopheles to an adorable, sociopathically rational ally.