Guys, can we tone down the harshness, please?

Subject: Guys, can we tone down the harshness, please?
Author: Neshomeh
Posted on: 2012-03-03 18:41:00 UTC

EF and Flare, I'm not disagreeing with any of the points you're making, but it wouldn't hurt to be nicer about it. Less ordering and declaring, more recommending and opining would do for a start, and if you feel the need to apologize for potential harshness, that's probably a good sign that you should take a step back and edit before posting. AnnaBee's been quite reasonable about discussing this character, and she's clearly put thought into it, even if it doesn't necessarily hold up, so let's be reasonable in return. The clue-by-four should be reserved only for people who don't listen to reason first.

~Neshomeh

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So. Help with my Agent. by AnnaBee on 2012-03-01 15:58:00 UTC Reply

I'm kicking around ideas for my Agent, and I want to introduce a character from one of the hideous crossover RP's I've done. Problem is, she JUST MIGHT be a Mary Sue. Help?

Details by AnnaBee on 2012-03-01 16:46:00 UTC Reply

Name: Anna Beilschmidt. Name she was born with is Moonracer Roxanne Beilschmidt, due to Extremely Bad Parenting. She HATES it.
Appearance: Chin-length white hair, ghastly pale skin, and red eyes. She's half-albino, half-vampire, and dangit, it does NOT look good. Wears thick, black glasses, and suits with skirts. Her left leg is twisted, due to a tragic accident in the gene pool... She can't really put any weight on it. She has to wear a brace and use a cane; if she's travelling any distance, she uses a wheelchair.
Personality: Arrogant, a wee bit sarcastic, logical, and a *bit* of a Flat Earth Atheist. In short, your average Agent. Tends to try to take charge of things. Even when other people don't want her to. Speaks both French and German, and curses fluently in the latter. Takes copious notes of things that happen in a black Moleskine. Just a wee bit anal-retentive. Yells at people a lot. She takes after Hetalia-Germany more than her father.
Parentage: Prussia (APH) is her father, Sabine (VtM OC) is her mother.

Things to consider. by Neshomeh on 2012-03-01 17:52:00 UTC Reply

As with most concepts, I think this one could go really well or it could be a mess, depending on how it's handled in-context. I have some questions to that effect, not necessarily to be answered now, but to think about. They pretty much all boil down to "why is this important?", but I'll specify:

1) First and foremost, she's disabled. If you're planning for her to be a field agent, how are you going to handle that? If the disguise generator fixes it so she can get around all right, then what is the point of having her be crippled in the first place; but on the other hand, if it doesn't, how will she face physical challenges that may arise? I think the latter option is a more interesting choice, but it does present potential pitfalls. If she literally can't carry her weight in the story, how long will it stay interesting?

1.2) Similar questions about her being an albino/vampire. Does she burn up and die in the sunlight? Does she crave blood? In short, how will this affect her, and how will she cope with it? If the only downside is cosmetic and it won't challenge her at all in the course of the spin-off, why bother including it?

2) Her personality: how have all her traits and history led to it? How did she get to be an arrogant, take-charge person with all the physical, physiological, and presumably psychological obstacles she faces? Parental encouragement, good friends, that one really awesome teacher...? How does it all fit together?

3) The name: is there any reason why her parent(s) chose Moonracer Roxanne, and is it ever going to come up? If not, how much is she going to harp on about it anyway? If a lot, it will be annoying. If not at all, why not just have her be named Anna?

And that's pretty much it. None of this is meant to be discouraging, but just as some stuff to think about. It's okay to have things about a character that just are (Nume has green glasses because that's the only decent option I could find when I first used a dollmaker to do an image of him), but the big, stand-out things need to have a reason behind them and a function in your storytelling. Heck, even the little things tend to grow significance over time (Nume's favorite color is green—he's human enough to have a favorite color), so make sure they're things that make sense. {= )

~Neshomeh

Re: Things to consider. by Anonymous on 2012-03-01 20:47:00 UTC Reply

1-1.2. The bad leg could be a bit of a problem, yes. I mostly put that in there to cancel out the dhampir superpowers. Dhampir are stronger, faster, and so on than your average human. And I didn't want Anna to be little-miss-half-vampire-Sue. So she has about half the drawbacks of being a vampire, none of the benefits, and a whole NOTHER set of problems on top of that.
Benefits: A little more resilient to cuts, bruises, etc. than average. That's about it.
Drawbacks: Does, indeed, crave blood. Does NOT burn in sunlight, but has very weak eyes- sort of like a drow elf. Since her body is trying to behave as if it's alive and dead at the same time, her mitochondria don't really work properly and her immune system is shot. She gets tired EXTREMELY easily, picks up every disease that comes along the pike, and generally is (physically) a HUGE liability. In the RP canon we had her in, she also dies young, because her body just can't take the strain anymore. Like, I think in our main storyline, she barely makes it to 30. And... I think it's definitely a challenge to her, because of all this crap.
The OTHER thing is, she's the kid of two RP characters. Prussia from Hetalia and a (female- NO mpreg kthxbai) vampire. You know the type. *sigh* It seemed like a good idea at the time. So that's the ooc explication for why.

2. Ooh, this is the hard one. >.> Lol. Here's what I've got... She's the daughter of PRUSSIA and the niece of GERMANY. Stubbornness, assertiveness, and such runs in the family as is. (They're nations, they're horribly stereotypical.) Anna is actually, by her (nuclear) family's standards, kind of shy and a wallflower... She had to learn to get loud FAST, or she got drowned out. Anna really wants people to take her seriously (a lot of smart girls do), and her odd appearance doesn't help. Since she's still fairly young (about 16), she thinks that being loud and assertive and such will HELP people take her seriously and think she's interesting and important. Her Uncle Luddy- That's Germany, for you Hetalia fans- also encouraged this, because he was sort of training her as a soldier. She really looks up to him... her dad's a bit crazy and unreliable, and her mum's even worse. Germany is at least stable, and normal, and sane... worryingly so, he's saner than Jeremy Clockson, but she likes the normalcy.

3. Moonracer = Her dad was a HUGE Transformers nut. Her older brother is named 'Megatron Fritz Beilschmidt'. If she was a little boy, she would have gotten named 'Starscream'. As is, Moonracer was the only female Transformer I could find in ten minutes of googling. It's not going to come up too much, she might allude to 'even MY real name's not that bad' at a particularly speshul Suename... UNLESS they get sent on a mission to a Transformers fic. Then she's going to die a little inside, the way that (say) Acacia dies a little inside when sent into a Borimir hatefic. She LOATHES Transformers with EVERY. FIBRE. OF HER BEING.

Forgot. Her fandoms:
Axis Powers Hetalia, sort of. She started out as a sort of side character from that fandom, and she's very... protective of the characters. Especially Germany, Prussia, and Old Fritz. She LOATHES Germancest and sporks it every chance she gets. 'Cos, you know, it's her DAD and her UNCLE.

The Neverending Story. This book was her childhood; she loves it to death. It was her favorite growing up, and, yes, she has a bit of a fangirl crush on Atreyu. More to the point, there's LOADS of bad Neverending Story fic out there that needs to be burned with fire.

Hum... by Ellipsis Flood on 2012-03-02 17:08:00 UTC Reply

I can't really picture her as a field agent. From what you write, I doubt that she would be sent out. I don't think she could chase after runaway characters, for example. Or going in hazardous environments without a hazmat suit.

Another thing: "I mostly put that in there to cancel out the dhampir superpowers."
Don't throw in weaknesses just so that you have weaknesses. You were afraid to make her overpowered, but now she's almost underpowered (for a field agent, at least).

Another thing. (Axis Powers Hetalia knowledge required.) by Ellipsis Flood on 2012-03-02 17:41:00 UTC Reply

What occured to me: APH. I don't know that much about it, but I doubt any of the characters were huge Transformers nuts. What you describe sounds more like badfic versions of the canons involved. I mean, there is already a noncanon vampire involved, so...

Can anyone here validate how IC Germany and Prussia are in that description? Because if the "real" nation-tans are vastly different, that should be noted. It could, for example, be a bit of a shock for Anna to find out that Germany and Prussia aren't at all like she remembers them.

Also, instead of capslocking, you can use HTML to emphasise things.
<b&gtBold.</b&gt
<i&gtItalic.</i&gt
<u&gtUnderlined.</u&gt

>.> About that... by AnnaBee on 2012-03-02 21:33:00 UTC Reply

It's a pretty commmonly held piece of fanon that Prussia likes Transformers, from what I can tell. Just like it's a commonly held piece of fanon in the Potterverse that Beauxbatons is a girls' school and Durmstrang is a boy's school, even though in the books there's boys and girls from both schools. (Movie canon is a witch.) We DID overexaggerate this, slightly. But only SLIGHTLY.

Germany is pretty IC in our roleplay, we didn't use him much. Prussia... is IC, but we exaggerated him a bit.

Your comparison is a bit wonky. by Ellipsis Flood on 2012-03-02 21:54:00 UTC Reply

Well, if the books say that Beauxbatons and Durmstrang are mixed schools, then this piece of fanon is just wrong. Does that mean that Prussia liking Transformers is just as wrong? You confuse me.

And even if it works... is Prussia enough of a douchebag to give his children names like that? Really?

Ermm... by AnnaBee on 2012-03-03 04:01:00 UTC Reply

Well... Okay, really bad comparison, I was just trying to think of something that's as wide-spread. It's more like... Um... Like ScoRose or something. IDK.

...Thing is, in-canon, one of Prussia's friends is Japan. (They're both Axis Powers, and they both have a penchant for random cute things. This is canon.) So the idea is, Japan got Prussia into Transformers, too.

...Sadly, yes. Yes, he is. This is the guy who... Well, the word 'doitsbag' was NOT coined for Germany. He refers to his 'vital regions' *ahem* as his 'five meters'. Often. In mixed company. He likes to harass people. Especially his brother, and Hungary and Austria, either of which may be his romantic interests. He lives in his brother's basement, and only comes out to bother/annoy various people.

So yes... it is TOTALLY in character to give his kids MORONIC names, just to be a troll.

Uhm... no. by FlareShard on 2012-03-03 14:09:00 UTC Reply

You have to realize there is a big difference between "harassing people and being annoying" or "bragging about penis size" and "mentally scarring one's own non-canon children for life because of some fanon". And yes, I know APH (canon, not fanon) well enough to say this.

The thing is that what you're saying sounds dangerously close to the excuses the authors of the badfic the PPC usually targets make a lot of the time to justify the bad ideas they stuff into their stories - just because a theory is popular in fandom, or because you really want a character to act this way, doesn't mean that the character won't act completely OOC.

Another thing that kind of worries me is your stance on shipping you mentioned in your introduction thread - you ship characters, even though you don't even know the canon they're from well enough? That's (at least in my opinion) not a very good thing to do - you should at least know the relationships between canon characters and the context they're in before you attempt to haphazardly put characters together.

Your agent is not very suited to be a PPC agent - both because you apparently try so hard to cancel out the traits that make her special with forced weaknesses that she essentially becomes useless as a field agent, and she also becomes more speshul that way than if you just left her as a normal dhampir. You say that you read the Original Series as well as the Wiki, but I still have the feeling that you don't really get what the PPC is actually about yet.

"Liking a canon" and "knowing a canon enough to differentiate canon from fanon" are two different things, and you often need to do extensive research into a canon in order to recognize when something violates canon - even if it means sinking ships or letting go of fanon you really loved. I know it's hard to detach yourself emotionally from a fanon theory you really became attached to, but if it goes beyond "it's all in good fun" into "the character doesn't act OOC because of this fanon", it gets a little worrisome.

I apologize if I sound harsh or cruel when saying all of the above, but this is something one needs to keep in mind when approaching a canon, especially one you are very fond of.
So... by Ellipsis Flood on 2012-03-03 13:44:00 UTC Reply

Okay. Now which parts of this are canon and which are fanon?

Just because something is a popular belief within the fandom, that doesn't make it canon. Don't mix this up.

Guys, can we tone down the harshness, please? by Neshomeh on 2012-03-03 18:41:00 UTC Reply

EF and Flare, I'm not disagreeing with any of the points you're making, but it wouldn't hurt to be nicer about it. Less ordering and declaring, more recommending and opining would do for a start, and if you feel the need to apologize for potential harshness, that's probably a good sign that you should take a step back and edit before posting. AnnaBee's been quite reasonable about discussing this character, and she's clearly put thought into it, even if it doesn't necessarily hold up, so let's be reasonable in return. The clue-by-four should be reserved only for people who don't listen to reason first.

~Neshomeh

Thanks, Neshomeh. by AnnaBee on 2012-03-03 19:11:00 UTC Reply

Actually, I feel honoured. Anna is kind of my guilty-pleasure-borderline-Sue... Born and raised in a badfic, and she's one of the WORST of the aforementioned badfic charries. (You know, with the whole girl-genius thing and borderline-crappy childhood.) So if these are the only things you can skewer me on... the problems with the setting, and not so much the characterization... I feel good. :)

Re: Thanks, Neshomeh. by Ellipsis Flood on 2012-03-04 10:01:00 UTC Reply

Her origin, as much as you described it, is an issue you never really got to.

Her father and uncle, are, I'm sure different in canon than they are in a cracky crossover RP. So does she even relate to the real characters or just to the RP versions? Sure, she would be squicked out by seeing the characters she knows as her father and uncle to do it, but she wouldn't necessarily relate to them as she did to the versions she knew.

Also: You said she craves blood. Does that mean she's prone to jumping people at random or is she in control of her urges? How about drinking from sick people? Can she get sick from that?
Heh. by VixenMage on 2012-03-04 00:47:00 UTC Reply

There's little as satisfying as taking a formerly awful character and making them something to be proud of. Good luck!

Um. by AnnaBee on 2012-03-03 14:07:00 UTC Reply

Most Definitely Canon: The 'five meters' thing. *shudder* The friends with France thing. The pestering people thing. The friends with Japan thing. The 'cute things' thing. In canon, he actually has a little pet bird that lives in his hair. xD

Ambiguously Canon: The 'lives in his brother's basement' thing. History backs this one up (which is pretty much canon for Hetalia. You know how it is.) and so does Prussia's 'official blog'. The show only goes until 1940-something, but Prussia isn't a country anymore. So, we know he's still around, because of the author-created official blog. But no one quite knows how. So the fandom cracks jokes about how he lives in Germany's basement.

The definite fanon: Any romantic pairings (it's always just heavily implied), the Transformers thing.

Potential answer by Phobos on 2012-03-01 16:20:00 UTC Reply

First off, welcome. Haven't gotten around to greeting you in the official thread, but whatever.

To answer you question: No one ever said you had to bring your character over from that RP exactly how she was in the RP. You can (and should) edit, tweak, and re-imagine until you have a character that you are comfortable using. I'm sure you can find someone around here to go over the concept with, to get get some feedback on how to de-Sueify that character.

Also, you have lots of time. No need to rush it on creating agents.

-Phobos