Re: Author vs Sue

Subject: Re: Author vs Sue
Author: Phobos
Posted on: 2012-01-03 21:20:00 UTC

If you are talking about it in-universe (characters talking about a mission) it is the Sue that is responsible for everything that happens in the story. If you are talking about it outside of the universe of the PPC (on the Board, for instance), then the buck stops at the author.

I've noticed the tendency among some Boarders to blame the Sue for everything, instead of holding the author responsible for what they write. That basically amounts to blaming the hamburger for the heart attack, rather than blaming the choices that led to the hamburger. This is possibly done to avoid bashing the author, which we had a rash of a while back. However, there is a difference between bashing (If the author thinks that is how the character acts then they are an idiot) and criticizing (The author's depiction of the character was really off).

You've done a really good job, in your post, of criticizing the work without bashing the author. If you keep that up in your review, you should be fine.

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Writing a review by ShatteredSanity on 2012-01-03 15:45:00 UTC Reply

Some of you may know this from the IRC, but I have found a really bad Batman badfic. I've ranted about it a lot already, so i'll spare you all another round of me yelling about the stupidity in this fic.

It's gone on for 19 chapters so far, and (at the time of writing) has 104 reviews, all of them good. Infact, I would like to point out what one reviewer wrote:

"I have been following your story for the longest time and just had to say something when I read this chapter! Beth is easily the best Riddler OC out there, no one can even come close :) she matches him like the jagged pieces of a jigsaw puzzle come together.

A lot of people can try to create mary sues for him -like I've seen a bit too often on this site- but I don't think I'll ever be able to look at Mr. Nigma with anyone but here again."

There are plenty more talking about how "in character" the Riddler is in this fic.

This fic is so bad, that I LITERALLY headdesked when I got to chapter 14...And yet, it feels like there's still hope for the story.

For all the OOCness that The Riddler and Batman suffer, Batgirl and Robin seem pretty In character( I don't know that much about them, but according to someone who does, what they do checks out) and there is one chapter that is written pretty well. It sort of feels like, with a bit of practice, the author could become a pretty good writer.

That being said, i'm faced with a dilemma. See, this fic makes me really really angry. I'm disgusted that someone who loves the character of the Riddler so much could mangle his character like this. I hate that the main character is a Mary Sue and that NO ONE seems to have been able to recognize this.

I want to leave a review for this fic, because on the author's profile, there's a little message asking if one of her other OCs is a Sue. I haven't read that OC's story, but that character does make a cameo as The Scarecrow's wife. However that's beside the point. What i'm trying to say is that going off of this, it looks to me like the author cares whether or not her characters are Sues.

I'm really motivated to leave a review, pointing out that the main character is a Sue and that The Riddler is horribly out of character. There are two problems with this plan.

The first is that i'm scared that if I do point out these things, that the author will fix the fic, depriving me of mission material. Then I feel guilty about thinking that, and how them improving their skills is more important than me having a mission. I think that this is partially the reason why I haven't already left a review.

The rest of the reason is problem two: I don't actually know HOW to write a review very well.

Can anyone here please give me some pointers?

This is the fic by the way:
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7406454/1/AllsFairinLoveand_Riddles

Reviewing well... by Fractal Dawn on 2012-01-03 22:07:00 UTC Reply

...is really, really hard. Mostly, listen to what's been said: it's pretty much all solid. In general, when I review bad or simply somewhat shaky fic, I try to remain absolutely clear. If you're concerned about the quality of the review--in either content or phrasing--I'd also suggest getting the review beta-read by someone who A) has some knowledge of the canon in question, B) probably takes the time and pain of reading the fic, and C) will be as honest with you as you want to be with the author. It probably is more tactful to avoid calling the character a Sue outright, and I agree with VM's reason of not using it due to vague definition far more than anything else. (Keep in mind that I am, in general, far more confrontational as a reviewer than I should be.)

One of the hardest things I've found to deal with in the DCU in particular is that so many writers have worked on it that defining "OOC" can be difficult beyond belief, but if it's truly that bad, just be prepared to cite sources. I'm sure if the author has betas at all, then he/she/thing is convinced they're fantastic, but it never hurts to offer a few suggestions about what to look for in a Beta.

As for the mission material thing: as Neshomeh said, that's no reason not to review. It may delay things, mind, especially if the author really does improve. Plus, wanting to do this is... really nice and incredibly admirable of you, and that's always worth it.

Oh yeah, and you're looking at the DCU. The Badfic will never end and is probably deep enough to do diving contests in. I've been afraid to dip my feet in for fear of Death or Permanent Mental Damage. That said: if you ever want a partner along for the ride with one? I am going to be horribly selfish and self-serving and offer to hop on-board. *sheepish*
I sympathize. by Neshomeh on 2012-01-03 20:20:00 UTC Reply

I've felt the same way in the past, but I'm with VM: go ahead and review, and if the author receives it well and makes improvements, ask for their permission to spork the old version. It would be in poor taste to spork it after improvements have been made without the author's consent. If they're really making an effort, there's no sense dwelling on past mistakes.

On the other hand, if they turn out to be unreceptive and act like a jerk about it, spork away.

It can be disappointing to lose materials, but remember that there's always more badfic out there. If you end up not being able to spork this one, something else will come along, and you'll have done a good deed by promoting goodfic rather than just thrashing badfic. Fear of losing PPC material shouldn't deter you from reviewing. {= )

~Neshomeh
Have your cake and eat it too. by Aster Corbett on 2012-01-03 19:45:00 UTC Reply

If this fic is ALREADY bad, right now, and you don't need it to be 'finished' to spork it (as in, if you sporked it you could get a good story out of the 'badness' with rising action -> climax -> falling action) what you can do is copy the text of the fic as it is right now and THEN leave the review.

If she changes the story, you have a snapshot of the badness as it is at this exact moment. If she does end up fixing it, that can even be written into the sporking, too! Remember, Spidey3000 was handled by his own author in the past.

I don't think by sporking it you'd disrespect the author if she improves. If the current, unedited work is genuinely terrible, and it's the Sue, not the author... As long as you spork it with respect for the author and in the spirit of the PPC/in good humor it should be fine. At least in my eyes.

Spidey3000 by Neshomeh on 2012-01-03 21:20:00 UTC Reply

He's a pretty special case. It wasn't a matter of him improving the story and being okay with PPCing an old version—he'd already completely abandoned the story and decided he was okay with it being PPC'd before I found out about it. I still asked for his permission to spork it and to include him in the mission, though. I think it would be inherently disrespectful to go behind someone's back and spork an old work when they're doing their best to improve in the present, especially if you're helping them with one hand and sporking with the other.

~Neshomeh

Trying to compromise comfort zones with sporking here... by Aster Corbett on 2012-01-03 21:57:00 UTC Reply

I'm kind of trying to compromise over here... she expressed interest in sporking it, so I'm trying to think of a way that would let her do that. But if that way isn't a good solution,there might not be a good solution... if it's uncomfortable,don't spork it! Simple as that. D:

As long as it's not a hateful mission... Maybe having fun with a temporary snapshot of something is too disrespectful, especially if the author eventually agrees? I mean, you aren't mocking the author FOREVER AND EVER, it's just the work that was put down at that moment in time. I once wrote badfic, and once people pointed my mistakes out, well, I WISH I had some of my old material left I could spork today!

I'd personally add a special note in it to clarify the fic's situation... I dunno. Just trying to think of things. Maybe if you really really wanted to spork this you could try, but personally if it makes you uncomfortable, I wouldn't do it.

I dunno. by Vixenmage on 2012-01-04 03:42:00 UTC Reply

As much as you want to do something, if doing it is inherently disrespectful or rude, sometimes it's better to just drop it. Better to have an author who goes "Yeah, I see-- let's try this and that and I'll start proofreading, etc," than an author who goes "...I did everything you mentioned, and you still posted something mocking me? Wow, you guys suck."

Agreed. Sometimes compromise isn't the answer. (nm) by Neshomeh on 2012-01-05 18:41:00 UTC Reply

Author vs Sue by ShatteredSanity on 2012-01-03 20:49:00 UTC Reply

How can I tell if it's the Sue and not the author?

Re: Author vs Sue by Phobos on 2012-01-03 21:20:00 UTC Reply

If you are talking about it in-universe (characters talking about a mission) it is the Sue that is responsible for everything that happens in the story. If you are talking about it outside of the universe of the PPC (on the Board, for instance), then the buck stops at the author.

I've noticed the tendency among some Boarders to blame the Sue for everything, instead of holding the author responsible for what they write. That basically amounts to blaming the hamburger for the heart attack, rather than blaming the choices that led to the hamburger. This is possibly done to avoid bashing the author, which we had a rash of a while back. However, there is a difference between bashing (If the author thinks that is how the character acts then they are an idiot) and criticizing (The author's depiction of the character was really off).

You've done a really good job, in your post, of criticizing the work without bashing the author. If you keep that up in your review, you should be fine.

Sometimes you can do both. by Vixenmage on 2012-01-03 16:57:00 UTC Reply

You could leave an honest review, letting the author know what problems you have perceived in her story and tips on how to fix them, and then PM or ask her by review if she minds if you PPC the older version.

As for the Sue thing-- it's possible to point out the flaws in the character without calling her a Sue. That's become such a loaded term it can be hard to use without any kind of issues, partly because the criteria are so vague. Instead, focus on why the character doesn't work, and how the Riddler is off character-- and how the two are related.

Leaving good reviews isn't always easy, but if the author takes crit well, it can be really satisfying. Mostly just be honest-- "You've got issues here, here, and here, but you're doing this well and I think if you fix this, this, and that, the story could come off a lot better."

It's a pain, but we are here to promote goodfic, not just slash badfic. And it does get easier to write stuff like that with practice-- like anything else, the more you do it, the better you get. Good luck, San.