Thanks for taking this in stride, desdendelle, He-Who-Shall-Be-Henceforth-Known-As-Male.

1) Aw, man. That means I have to read the whole darn badfic to see if you're right. Oh, well. If you'll go through the trouble of writing another sample, I guess I can slog through some badfic. :)

2) Right, right, and right. Good to know you caught those! (Actually, the word "queer" wouldn't be so bad if the word "mount" didn't precede it. It's the double-double entendre that gets you. As for "Lo," there are very few writers that can get away with using that word without it sounding pretentious. I've never been able to use it convincingly myself, and here the problem is compounded by the fact that there is no accompanying gesture. As far as we know, your character yells the word in his dead brother's face (since he didn't move between cradling his brother's head and shouting "Lo!"). And we don't know who he is addressing (the cruel world? His gods? His people? The readers?), so it reads as somewhat random.)

3) That one sounds like it needs a bit more mulling over before you can slot it back into the excerpt.

4) Duly noted.

Glad that you're not too offended, and also that you're willing to come up with another writing sample. Thanks!

Araeph

Hope the color blue doesn't offend.

On, um, pretty much all points.

-The badfic in question looks easily bad enough to make a fun mission out of; I certainly could (did you spot where Artemis claims no one knows about aliens because he was elsewhere whenever they showed up?). Remember, not every story PPC'd has to be appallingly bad - I seem to remember ranting a bit about people always trying to top each other (and naming myself as the first offender over Clbr__n). But more to the point - you just essentially claimed 'I can't see how you'd do this, therefore you couldn't do it'.

I am sure that you could make a fun mission out of this fic (and yes, I did miss that spot that you mentioned), but I am not sure at all that this writer could make a fun mission out of it, which is what was on the table. Also, while there are things to make fun of in that badfic, I don’t see it as being really destructive to the plot continuum. As fanfic goes, the canon rape is minimal, I don’t see any Sues or bad slash…there doesn’t seem to be anything that really goes against the spirit of Artemis Fowl or Doctor Who.

-I concur about the battle formations paragraph being awkward - if it's still wanted, I'd probably have worked some of it in earlier (have them ride in such a way that they can fall into positions quickly, or something, then put the second half of the paragraph where it is). However, I'll cite this:

The bowmen fired; their arrows streaked toward the boughs, hitting them and setting them on fire. A shriek was heard from above, and a flaming body fell down. A hail of arrows came in reply from above, slaying many, but the soldiers persisted, firing barrage after barrage of fire-arrows toward the trees, causing many of their assailants to fall down to the ground, dead and burning. However, the tree-toppers were far more numerous than the soldiers. In the end, they had won, although it was a pyrrhic victory. The soldiers had slain twice their numbers before the last one fell.

That's action. It could do with a break in the middle and the loss of that 'however'*, but it's action, quickly and tersely described.

I suppose it's a matter of opinion, but for me there is still too much retroactive description going on in that story for me to give a thumbs-up to the action.

Again, more to the point: the latter half of your point seems to consist of 'It's not how I'd do it, so it wouldn't work'. Given enough time and prowess, a writer can make just about anything work. However, it is not just your missions that rely a lot on dialogue, and there’s a reason for that: it’s the format that tends to work best for our stories. Could a PPC mission conceivably be done with lots of slow decription and atmosphere-building? Of course. But the issue is whether this particular writer can pull it off, given the writing sample we got—and I’d still have to say no. I agree that when I write PPC missions, I tend to write a lot of dialogue, and that perhaps this wasn't the best writing sample for the genre in question. Shouldn't the response be to ask for an alternate sample?

That’s exactly what happened, in July’s post below mine. No response was forthcoming, even to say, “Not right now, could you wait until I have one?”, and I am sure that desdendelle saw that request, since s/he visited the Board in the time between July’s post and mine.

-Originality: Um... ahahaha. Do you remember Aerilyn and Zera, Artemis' attempt to write something more in line with the spirit of TOS than most spinoffs? They were generic Real World humans (as far as I recall) with - gasp - not even a character profile to make them sound interesting. And yet…they were interesting. The generic description of the sample’s world and characters (what little characterization exists), is not interesting at all. The fact that A&Z’s missions were memorable suggests that there was something about the tone, characterization, etc. that made it more than just a clone of TOS. Also, I would argue that originality counts for more now than it did then, because there are so many spin-offs now that it’s hard for people to get excited about yet another one. (A perennial complaint being that people don’t read or review missions nearly as much as they should.) And yet I love those missions. Would you, honestly, love a mission written by this person? Do you think the PPC as a whole would love those missions? I'll put it another way. Without looking back at that excerpt, was there anything from that particular world that grabbed you, was emotionally compelling, made you want to go back to that world, or made you want to know more? If not, then why would the writer's rendition of the PPC be any different?

Overall, I understand what you're trying to do - and as a critique this was an excellent post - but I think you've lost track of the point of Permission. We're not publishing a book here - we're letting people in at the ground level of a structure we're all building. 'Your sample pegs you firmly as a beginning writer' should not be used as a pejorative. It wasn’t. There’s nothing wrong with being a beginning writer. However, being a beginning writer in the PPC wouldn’t work, because it requires a thorough understanding of how a story functions—or doesn’t.

According to the Permission page, there are two reasons we use permission. Paraphrased from the first section:

1/ To make sure people are using the PPC name to describe the PPC, not something else entirely.
2/ To check for 'bad spelling, grammar and logic' and Suvianness.

That is a very cogent paraphrase of my original words on permission. :D However, the second point—checking for bad spelling, grammar, and logic—was not a comprehensive list of what we may check for; it was a reference to the overarching concern that PPC spin-offs be well-written. I would not call this sample well-written, even considering the lack of Sues and liberal use of the spell-check. (See my thoughts on word usage below.)

The only one of these you actually mentioned is grammar. (And no, humour isn't in there. From later in the same article 'as long as it reflects your ability to use spelling, punctuation, and grammar. Humor is encouraged but not necessary.') It wasn't the fact that the excerpt lacked humor that bothered me. It was my doubt that this writer could recognize unintentional humor in the words of others. My doubts didn't come from the story's mood; they came from several parts of that excerpt that were humorous, yet managed to slip past the writer's radar. (Who goes up to his dead brother, cradles his head, and inexplicably belts out the word “LO!”? That destroyed any sense of tragedy the writer had built up.)

From the post and the writing sample, desdendelle is capable of writing with spelling and grammar appropriate to the PPC. Word use, and specifically varying it, is something that could do with some work (egads! Passive voice! But I'm afraid I don't know whether dd is male or female, so I was trying not to mention that - oops), but there is nothing here which should prevent him/her/it/starfish from writing a PPC spinoff. Word use is one of the most important things in language and in storytelling. The excerpt’s phrasing and sentences are generally too clunky, awkward, and lumbering to make good entertainment. Also, I want to have a humorous reaction from the badfic, not from the writing sample. And since this is a sample, I have to assume that it is this person’s best work—which isn’t terrible, by any means, but neither is it good PPC material. I would grant that permission.

Then since we are at an impasse, we’ll probably need another sample of desdendelle’s work. I will add a comment to this thread requesting it.

If you want to resolve this through e-mail or chat, we can do that, too.

Araeph

At least in regards to his writing.

There is grammar, yes, somewhere under the florid, florid prose, but if someone's writing reminds me of the Eye of Argon when I'm reading it, that is not a good thing.

I'd argue that while yes, his skills are likely at a level that meet qualifying for permission as far as writing goes, the dense writing style used here makes it difficult to say anything on the matter. The floridness of the description in his sample completely overtakes the ability to gauge if he normally tries to work on stuff- to steal easy framing- that's above his level, or if he used it in this case to try and showcase his writing.

Florid prose has a time and place, and I'd argue that it's not necessarily appropriate for the PPC or trying to get permission for the PPC with it.

As a counter example, in terms of style counting against a person, MAXInsanity's original permission request had been shot down mainly because his sample was set at the PPC, was supremely grimdark, and showed little sign of humor or much in the way of optimism. His writing, however, was very competent, and given how much he writes, has no doubt improved since then (and if you are reading this, MAX, heeey, hint hint).



That said, Desdendelle, again, if you have an alternate writing sample to show that is not as florid, I would love to see it.