Subject: Re: EVERYBODY DANCE NOW!
Author:
Posted on: 2013-05-23 23:54:00 UTC
Pfffhahahaha all of the Star Trek characters look like they've lost something important and are flipping out trying to find it. I love this.
Except that one jumping redshirt on the far right. I don't know what he's doing.
What's your deal, random crewman?
WHAT'S
YOUR
DEAL
So, it seems that it will now be possible for fanfiction authors (in a handful of canons) to submit their works to Amazon and possibly get them published. http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html?docId=1001197421
So far, there's nothing at all about who will decide what to publish (The author? Someone from the publishing company of the original books? An underpaid intern?) or how they will decide. There are some very general guidelines, but I refuse to believe they will publish any 100.000 words Damon Salvatore/Mary Sue epic romance, that doesn't contain porn and have halfway decent SPaG. I simply refuse.
This, of course, raises two questions (and yes, I know it's way too early to say anything definite, but we can still theorize).
A) How canon are these new stories?
B) Are we allowed to spork them if we think they deserve it?
Thoughts?
"Very careful must we be. Down a dark path this line of thinking may take us."
Well said, misquoted Yoda. Applying the adjective "licensed" to one subset of fanfiction automatically categorizes the remainder as "not licensed." I worry that this might lead to a situation where the owners of intellectual properties wield more power over when and where fan works can be created/posted anywhere. I prefer the ambiguously legal, homogeneous mass of fanfiction as it currently stands.
A. How canon? Exactly as canon as the original creator says. Note I said "creator" and not "publisher." The author/whatever is the one whose head found the story, and they (to me) are the only one(s) who should be able to declare canon or uncanon anything written by another author.
B. Are we allowed to spork? Quite frankly, I'm going to be optimistic and assume that, even if it is merely publishers and not the original author who makes the decision of what gets published, that they will still weed out anything bad enough to be sporked in a PPC mission. Don't forget, folks: we spork the terrible of the bad, not just so-so stuff. Just because a mediocre-fic gets published this way, just because it doesn't perfectly jive with canon, doesn't suddenly make it mission-worthy.
Let's maybe watch and see what gets published before we have big, divisive arguments over what we can do with that material, maybe, please, hm? >.>
We have to step down and wait until the actual stories come out. Arguing over possibilities is going to bring us nowhere.
Sorry, Huinesoron, if yesterday's post sounded like I was willing to go fandom police. It's just... Hard to think that what is still called fanfiction by their author and publishing medium is to be considered a canon ppc-wise.
La notte porta consiglio, we say here in Italy, and so I realized that I can use whatever other method of sporking I come up with if I find anything really deserving (which, if the guys at Amazon do their work well, is fairly unlikely).
And for the record: it's not that I consider these stories will be in any way canon. I don't think anyone is actually arguing that. But they are published and paid for, which is where I feel the distinction lies.
Anyway, obviously I wildly disagree about the value of arguing possibilities (hey, what if the Queen is really Stalin in disguise? Imagine how... completely non-changing anything... that would be!), but sure.
hS
. . . as us not really having enough info to go on yet. We should wait to see the form this project takes so we can properly discuss it.
I mean, it's possible that you are actually a representative of a secret organisation which is following an agenda set by aliens who are themselves followers of a secret religion founded in the future by me, so where does that leave us?
hS
Armored (but not armed) conflict that spans whole square feet of battlefield. All of that comes to a tipping point when we get hungry and go for lunch. It is then, in the Holy Sandwich Shop, that the peace talks begin. The peace talks, in this case, being debate about which Captain from Star Trek is the best. This only serves to reignite the conflict; continuing a weekend of war.
Look upon the future and weep!
-Phobos
Nightmare Moon is best pony.
Smeargle is best Pokémon.
Sutton Foster is best thoroughly modern Millie.
Picard is best captain.
Luna is best pony. (Do we agree? I don't think we do.)
Scyther is best Pokémon
(I know nothing of Thoroughly Modern Millie...sorry.)
You are both wrong.
Jack Harkness is best captain. (Captain of what you never specified)
Twilight is best pony, but Celestia is best princess. What is that? You say Twilight is a princess too? Well, I must disagree. She is a unicorn, no wings here. Nope. None at all.
Mudkips are best Pokémon.
Um... Millie is best Millie? Yeah, I don't know what this is either.
So I herd u liek Mudkipz
My opinion, whether you like it or not:
Captain Picard is best captain, but Kirk is... the... most... memorable. Forsomeunspecifiedreason.
Applejack is best pony.
My Rattata is top percentage!
I'm afraid I don't really know about Thoroughly Modern Millie either, so... yup.
Sisko is best captain and Fluttershy is best pony.
Due to what I'm attributing to a series of memory-filing errors, my brain constantly refers to Nathan Fillion as Captain Malcolm Hammer. I even had to look up what his real name was on Wikipedia so that I could make this post.
Best memory error ever.
John Watson is the best Captain and Doctor Whooves is the best pony. No clue who Millie is, but obviously Slowpoke is the best Pokémon.
Now all shall listen to Sutton Foster's voice AND DESPAIR.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdyCkZpMBlM
Apparently, it logged me out in between opening the reply and fetching the YouTube url. INTERNETS!
I came not to bring peace, but a rabbit - with great big pointy eyes. Look on my works, ye mighty, and boogie.
hS
I. Don't. Boogie!
[/obscure Farscape reference]
~Neshomeh
Pfffhahahaha all of the Star Trek characters look like they've lost something important and are flipping out trying to find it. I love this.
Except that one jumping redshirt on the far right. I don't know what he's doing.
What's your deal, random crewman?
WHAT'S
YOUR
DEAL
Fanfiction today really is "not licensed", though. There really isn't that much ambiguity to it, and what ambiguity there is (read as: fair use) is unchanged by some works licensing with some venues. If anything, I think that this is a step in the right direction - it's getting more authors to think about letting people other than themselves play in their worlds.
And totally agreed with your final point. They're just words on the internet - let's wait and see what they actually say before arguing over them?
. . . but so far it's kind of been coasting under the radar for the most part? And making this distinction for some of it might make the technically not strictly legal aspect of the rest more obvious?
But I'll be super happy if your optimism is proved right and my paranoia is proved wrong.
This has been argued back and forth a lot (see: The Battle of Goldberg). My understanding - and back when we had a resident lawyer (Jocelyn), she gave this interpretation - is that since fanfiction is non-profit, and is presented in such a way that it is impossible to assume it's the work of the original author, it is not a breach of copyright. If one attempts to charge money for (unlicensed) fanfic - such as that girl who tried to sell her Star Wars novel Another Hope on Amazon - then you're into 'you're taking money which might otherwise go to the creator' and 'people will think this reflects the creator's wishes'. Those are copyright violations (more the former, I think - the latter may be more of a moral objection).
This has been, as I say, argued back and forth a lot. I don't think there's a definitive legal ruling as yet - and to be honest, what that ruling turns out to be will probably depend on whether the copyright holders have heaps of money to throw at the case (since they will, presumably, be against fanfic - otherwise they wouldn't start the case in the first place!).
hS
I don't think I said it well before. I just wish this whole situation hadn't come up. Now "fanfiction" and "licensed" are being used in the same sentence, and I'm worried how potential court rulings might end up if the unlicensed fanfics start being scrutinized more closely by the copyright holders.
In my mind, fanfic is fanfic and canon is canon. Altering one variable (in this case, formal publication vs. online display) should not change that.
As far as badfic, that's at the chooser's discretion, and the amount of badfic published relies solely on who that judge is and how they filter the stories. If each fanfiction is actually weighed for their merit, edited, proofread, and commented upon before publication, I don't imagine the PPC will have much to worry about. If every fic passes muster, then we'll have a lot on our plates.
Well, it looks like stories will be moderated, so I guess that only decent enough stories will be published. Most of the worst charges are already forbidden, so I am hoping that we'll have decent stuff.
Of course, considering that the Inheritance Cycle, Twilight, and Fifty Shades of Gray got published, there might still be stuff deserving sporking.
About canonicity, I'd say that we need Word of God here - we need to know what the authors of the original works actually think about the Worlds.
As a rule of thumb, though, every story is probably going to be a subcanon of its own.
In fact, this initiative kinda reminds me of Japanese doujin works - in Japan the copyright and royalties riles are more lax, and fanmade novels and mangas are actually allowed to be sold in limited amounts at fairs like Comiket as it is viewed as free publicity for the main franchise.
This doesn't mean that I think that the PPC is out of jurisdiction here, just like it isn't about doujin works. Unless the author of the original canon themselves say that the story is canon or a official subcanon, it will stay as fanfiction for me, published or not. And so I will feel entitled to mission it if is bad enough.
It isn't probably going to happen, though - not only I would have to buy the story from Amazon, and I never bought anything from there at all, but I kinda doubt that anime or video game canons (the ones I'm active in PPC-wise) are going to be included in this initiative.
All in all, though, I think that Kindle Worlds is a good idea.
I mean, I don't think I'd mission anything published via World (mostly because I don't know the fandoms involved), but that doesn't make me incapable of mocking it if it needs mocking. MSTing, dramatic reading, blow-by-blow sarcastic reviewing...
There are more ways to spork than just to PPC it, after all.
I hadn't thought about it, but of course we have other ways to show our disapproval.
Have you seen this review of Fifty Shades? (Probably NSFW) http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/340987215 A pair of agents armed with diamond mauls couldn't smack that story around more than she does in that review.
... that you are entitled to write a mission into, for instance, a Star Wars Expanded Universe novel? Or a published novel set in a video game world - either a novelisation of the game or part of a series attached to it?
Because that seems to be what you're saying. I'd like to hear your response, though - and what the distinction is, if you see one.
hS
That the Star Wars Expanded Universe and the video game novels are meant to be canon or sub-canon since the very beginning. Their authors are choosen or at least accepted by the owners of the rights.
(Some of those works, though, are apparently in dire need of a sporking - I heard that the Mass Effect novelization was a disaster. But for those there are other sporking means, such as MSTs.)
The "problem" with Kindle Worlds is in their status: "published fanfiction"
They are sold, but they're fanfiction. The work of a single fan, that goes unchecked until it is sent to Amazon for publishing.
Tell me, what would be the difference between this and FF.net if they actually enforced the latter's rules about quality?
That we pay for one, and not for the other.
Now, if Fanfiction.net started making the users pay to read the fanfics on it, would that mean that all of those instantly become "published canons"?
No. Because they're still fanfiction.
If an author decided to collect the best fanfictions about his work(obviously with their authors' consent) and publish an anthology, would it be a "published canon"?
No, because it would be a published anthology of fanfiction.
That is, unless the original work's author specifies that he considers the plot of those canon or an existing alternate universe (sub-canon). Only then it would be out of PPC jurisdiction, IMHO.
The point I want to bring home is: publishing alone doesn't make a fanfiction into canon or a subcanon.
I can be missing some distinction somewhere, though, so feel free to point out any flaws in my reasoning.
Is it bad that I want the BBC to allow Sherlock onto that list? Or any of the other fandoms I've written novel-length fics for?
are confusing me. Are you trying to say that you believe that they will NOT publish Suefics, or are you saying that you believe that they WILL publish Suefics?
E.A. believes they won't...with some conditionals attached that I haven't quite figured out.
Canon is, I think, defined by the original creator(s) of a 'verse.
Anything commenting on this 'verse not created by those who made the canon is considered fanon unless approved as canon by the creators (or those holding the rights - sadly, sometimes) and therefore sporkable.
That puts it on the same level as the Star Wars EU, the Doctor Who audio dramas, and the Star Trek novels. That makes it un-sporkable, even if not necessarily canon.
hS
Is the fact that it still says fanfiction right there on the tin. Even Amazon calls it that. Actually they call it 'fan fiction', but same difference.
But I suppose there's no reason not to err on the side of considering it all licensed and thus harmless.
After all, IIRC the reason the PPC do not spork published derivative works, even if they are bad, is that they form their own separate canons and can longer hurt the original story; thus there's no reason to kill them. (Other than personal loathing. I would still want to see Pride and Prejudice and Zombies burned to the ground.)
I mean, at least PPZ doesn't seem to have a blatant Trans-Dimensional-Hopping-through-her-bathroom-wall Mary Sue.
I've heard the rumours about how bad it is and I felt no need to go look for myself. *shudders*
I saw some of that. There was... I think one character I believed? Total?
hS
and said "all aboard the nope train to Effthatville."
License being granted to professionals is one thing.
Licens being given to fanfic writers is another. Even licensed fanfic still is fanfic, and all (sufficiently bad) fanfic is sporkable.
...one key point to consider is the use of the word "royalties" in the description. If people are getting paid for their works, then wouldn't their works technically be on the same level as things like "50 Shades of Gray"? Pretty sure we're not allowed to spork that story.
... it's being given to people whose work will be published for sale by an actual publisher, and who will receive royalties for it. That's pretty close to 'professional'.
And, of course: why would anyone in the PPC /pay/ for a badfic to spork? There's enough of them around for free, believe me.
hS
...but sometimes one of a particular nature just cannot be acquired for sporkification by any other means.
...if it is an official story (which these would be if they are published and sold) then the PPC has no jurisdiction. So, it doesn't matter if we think it is the worst fanfic to ever be written, the publisher has made it official and that is the end of it, as far as the PPC is concerned.
hS, please correct me if I misinterpreted you.
-Phobos
...those stories are still classed as fanfic, not officialised but only licensed. It appears to be a gray area and demands semantics.
Ideally they're enforcing quality control and we're not needed. If this is not the case (which it is likely to be, says the pessimist that is me) then I can imagine some people sending in their agents independently, Busman's Holiday-style.
I see the word 'licensed'. To be licensed is to be officially allowed, by a governing body, to do something. In this case, they are officially recognized, by the publisher, to write stories and get paid for them.
That is clear cut, to me.
I don't care if they want to license someone to write Kirk/Spock PWP Slash. It is the publisher's decision to make. They are official. We are not.
-Phobos
Is the phrase "getting fanfic officially published". Published by Amazon, who take care of the formalities required to avoid copyright lawsuits, but not of the actual canon integration. The difference stems from my persception that a work's legal status does not reflect its canon status.
I, for one, take this as license to spork - and perhaps take shots at Amazon's quality control, since supposedly they will be enforcing such a thing.
You are arguing that if it isn't canon, then it is fair game. That would include the right to spork the Star Wars Expanded Universe, the Doctor Who audio dramas, and the Star Trek novels, some Warcraft works, and some Battlestar Galactica works, all of which are legal, licensed, and published, but are not canon. That is something that the PPC does not do.
The PPC does not spork licensed works. The PPC also does not take shots at publishers. End of story. Full-stop.
-Phobos
That, good sir, is why I've explicitly suggested to be doing this in an agent's free time - the time where they are not affiliated with the organisation.
We're not talking just about what the fictional agents do - but what we, the PPC community, do. And what we do not do is spork published works.
If you - or anyone else - wants to write a critique, deconstruction, MST, or downright evisceration of a published, licensed work, you are free to do that. But you are not free to attach the name of the Protectors of the Plot Continuum to that writing.
hS
Please take note that explaining seemingly apparent facts may cause irritated reactions in some people, however.
Either way, my opinion more or less is identical with Sergio's. Without Word of God stating that a spin-off is canon or subcanon I consider it noncanon.
I'm having a bit of trouble following your posts. Would you mind summarising them?
Just to get this sorted out, what I think is being said to you is that:
1) these fics would be published professionally
2) the PPC does not spork things that are published professionally
3) therefore, the PPC does not spork these fics, whether they are good, bad, canon, non-canon, or indifferent
4) they do not spork them even if they are off-duty, since that would still be the PPC (as a community) sporking the fic.
(sorry if I got any of that wrong, hS and Phobos, I'm having a bit of an "off" day >.
So, yeah, what is your position, and what is it that you disagree with in those points?
...all those points are fairly moot, since only the publishing is done professionaly, and the fics still remain fanfics in nature and intention. Sergio Turbo put it better, I guess, his opinion is more or less mine.
The PPC policy is not to touch published works, entirely regardless of their nature. Therefore, all the arguments in the world that this is different, you don't trust Amazon, it doesn't count, etc, are actually moot points, because PPC policy says "We don't do that." Therefore... we don't do that. Absolutely, you and Sergio should feel free, as stated above, to do what you like under your own name, as is and should ever be your right. But the PPC is not in the business of mucking with published works. It is just that simple.
Y'see, the issue is that the PPC does not mission works that have been published in a professional capacity. This is because, wellm there's a few reasons.
1) you'd have to pay for them. Half the fun of missions is reading the original badfic! It's a bit difficult to do so if you have to pay to see it!
2) Whether it's explicitly canon or not, this has been published by people who have the rights to the original works. I can't speak for anybody else, but that's far more of a grey area than I'm willing to work with.
3) Since it's been published by those who have the ability to do so, I'd argue that it's an optional canon. If you don't want to accept it, that's fine, but there still might be those who'd go "Oh, yes, this works perfectly!" It would be a sort of semi-canon fanon, if that makes sense.
If you reply (or if anybody else has an issue with these!), it might be a bit easier if you label stuff as you address it, just to keep everything tidy.
Cheers!
-Tray
"the PPC does not spork things that are published professionally"
"...the publishing is done professionally..."
I want you to explain to me how those two sentences don't conflict. Just those two, nothing about the nature of the term fanfiction, or anything else. Those two lines alone. I honestly am somewhat confused that this continued as a discussion for as long as it did.
I'm headed back to my cave, if anyone needs me, they know who to contact me through.
Even if they are letting bad stories get published, it seems unkind to make fun of them for letting people put their stories out there. Do we insult the fanfictiondotnet mods for letting its bad stories get out there?
One appears to be making the claim of planning to check every single submission posted. The other has no screening process.
It just doesn't sit well with me.
