Subject: Re: Sure they can be.
Author:
Posted on: 2011-04-07 21:40:00 UTC
What would be examples of external concepts?
What would not be examples of external concepts?
(Sorry. Just want to see whether I understand what external concepts are or not.)
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5956328/1/
A girl named Amelia Dickinson attends the World W Academy, has England and America falling for her, goes to a dance with France, and possesses two magical creatures that talk. I'm pretty sure Amelia's a Mary Sue: she has a tragic past, she's got a bunch of Lust Objects falling for her, and she can see FAIRIES. And other things England can see, which nobody else is supposed to be able to see.
Tell me what ya'll think.
...Also, can I stake claim to this fic (what's it even called, anyway)?
Just as soon as I get around to finishing my agent character sheets and writing example, I'll get started...
The fic's called "Gakuen Hetalia: It's more than a Simulation"
Hmm... I still wonder how exactly would the characters be neutralised or something, since I think that there is a chance that the Hetalia characters are Anthropomorphic Personifications. This is because some things about the characters correspond to their respective nations.
Why would this be a problem? Because on Discworld's Death page on the wiki, here's this:
"Due to his nature as an Anthropomorphic Personification, Death cannot be neuralyzed"
(Here's the link: http://ppc.wikia.com/wiki/Death_(Discworld)
(I think the original version of the question words my concern better: http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=199610;article=207192;title=PPC%20Posting%20Board)
PoorCynic was interested in doing a different badfic*, but this was his response** once I had addressed that:
(Link: * http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=199610;article=206970;title=PPC%20Posting%20Board
** http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=199610;article=207222;title=PPC%20Posting%20Board)
I really don't know whether PoorCynic's still interested in the badfic or not, since he didn't say anything whether he still wants to do it or not.
...Then again, I really have no idea about whether the "Anthropomorphic Personification" label would apply to the Hetalia characters' W World Academy counterparts as well or not. The characters appear to be called by their respective nation's name, but there are differences that I'm bugged by...
I'm really sorry if I'm bringing back an old question that should have stay dead, but I'm still stumped thanks to that concern even after a few months.
Anyway, on the subject of this fic... Even after reading about what happens in the fic, I'm getting a bad feeling this "Amelia" is indeed a sue.
I mean really, is there a good reason why she is able to see fairies and other similar creatures? Also, who falls for her and details about her "tragic past"?
It is entirely possible that the Nations cannot be neuralyzed. As Anthropomorphic Personifications, they undoubtedly are different from normal humans. But it occurs to me that Death was merely a skeleton, and had no biology to manipulate, where the Nations are entirely human in form and may, in fact, be susceptible to neuralyzing's affect on the brain.
Let's open this question up to the general public. Anybody have an idea?
Because they are anthropomorphic personifications of countries rather than eternal concepts.
America can forget.
Death does not forget.
What would be examples of external concepts?
What would not be examples of external concepts?
(Sorry. Just want to see whether I understand what external concepts are or not.)
America was made by men/made up of men/ established by men/identified by men. A personification of America could forget.
Deer is a living thing capable of thought. A personification of the deer would forget.
Tea was developed by men. A personification of a mug of tea could forget.
These are concepts that humans construct and apply to the external world.
...
Death cannot forget.
Love cannot forget.
Justice cannot forget.
Vanity cannot forget.
Hope cannot forget.
These are concepts processed internally as part of abstract thought.
Also, I doubt things like 'rock' or 'rain' once made into a humanish persona would be able to be neuralyzed. They exists whether an organism identifies them or not.
Final Hetalia-related question: Can General Winter forget, if he ever appears in a Hetalia badfic? I ask this because he represents a certain winter. The problem is that he represents Russia's winter, not everyone else's winter.
Concepts: Which of these would be external concepts?
Hatred
Spring
Cold
Sleep
Ocean
You know, you've really brought up an interesting point there. But if what you said is true, then shouldn't Death's wiki entry be changed a bit? Still kinda bugged that it says that the reason for Death's immunity is just that he's an Anthropomorphic Personification, not a certain kind of Anthropomorphic Personification.
General Winter probably can't forget, but he also probably doesn't need to forget, either. I don't think he's really able to be hurt. Because he's Russia's winter. If anything hurts him, it's a character replacement. The Real Russia's Winter is probably nigh inconsiderable.
Hatred is made up by humans, but also really isn't something made up on purpose. It is one of those visceral things that is probably innate for humans, and is a part of reality. That said, Hatred could swing either way: if you interpret it to be a part of reality, or part of perception.
Actually, that's probably a good guideline.
Things that simply are, that are part of reality itself: external concepts, and probably can't be treated as entirely human. They kind of become deity-like in the manner of Death. You may be able to make 'sleep' generally sleepy, but you can't characterize it. It's beyond human ability to fully make them human. Hence the generations upon generations of trying to describe the 'ocean' as a woman... but making her more like a god.
Things that are perceived, that are interpreted or invented by an organism are impermanent like a human and probably can be treated as such. This is what gives stuff like Hetalia life-- because people can characterize these things, they can be made humanish.
If somebody in fanfic treats 'Spring' or 'Cold' like a real human being rather than a representation like Death, that instance is probably a character replacement and a Mary Sue only calling themselves that... You can't 'be' Death. Death is Death.
This is why the antics concerning Death from Discworld are so /funny/. They put an eternal, external concept that is part of reality and try and make it fit in with things that are humanish, but to no avail. Even his daughter ends up a little... off.
I like your explanation. It seems to capture the idea behind the Personifications perfectly.
I don't think General Winter can forget. As the personification of a thing, he most likely has memories and powers beyond Nations. Since he is made of temperature, wind, water, geography (to my understanding of the concept of winter), he shouldn't be able to be neuralyzed.
Nations, however, are entirely the institutes of men. Only humans have created nations, only humans are parts of nations, thus the nations themselves are fully human in concept, appearance, and likely biology.
These are my thoughts on that subject.
As for which concepts on your list are external, Spring, Cold, and Ocean probably are. Hatred and Sleep are human and animal conditions, so thus might not qualify as external concepts. I'm no expert, so what do other people think?
I like your explanation. We should go with that.
I don't know about that applying Death, because the wiki notes that his status as an Anthropomorphic Personification is his reason why he is immune to neutralization (unless it's wrong or something). If biology was the reason, then why is Anthropomorphic Personification used as the reason for Death's immunity instead?
Your point is valid. I am merely bringing up a theme the Master (Terry Pratchett) himself used.
...So who is killing this, this thing? Because I want to shake their hand.
I do not know...but I will give them all the cookies they want.
THIS FANFICTION IS ANNOYING RARRRRG.
At least she left China alone...
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6868352/1/Aragornandthe_angeli
"A new species is in middle earth, how will she change the fellowship and can she put aside her haunting past?"
Well, for starters, she vaporizes the Nazgul that was going to stab Frodo on Weathertop. And of course joins as the tenth walker.
Is this fic full of Grelvish? http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6732953/1/ThePainThatNoOne_Knows
*eyetwitch* Kill...kill...kill...WHY MUST PEOPLE DEFACE LORD OF THE RINGS SO?!
[Maudlin coherency at 86%]
Yeah, I just bet Hungary becomes her bestest fwiend ever... and oops, is that PruHun I just saw? One of my friends is gonna be so angry when I send her this.
Yes, Amelia's a Mary Sue. The only thing left now is "can we get a good sporking and hilarious death for her"?
I would advise killing her after her friends from America all enter the story to ensure all bit characters are gone. And there is a very good chance England's unicorn friend could be persuaded to save him by stabbing the Sue to death. Or maybe the fairies would like to help. But with Hetalia, there are always entertaining ways to kill people.
Should I put this on "Unclaimed Badfic" then? And add the Ghost Rider badfic I found?