Subject: Oh, wow, I hope not.
Author:
Posted on: 2013-05-17 00:53:00 UTC
On the other hand, that would make things easier...but wow.
I suppose I'll see what fits when I reach that point in the mission.
~DF
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On the subject of OOC immunity by
on 2013-05-15 14:57:00 UTC
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So, me and Lielac wrote (but didn't put up anywhere) a mission in a Bionicle badfic, where the Sue and replacements were dealt with by retrieving the actual Makuta Teridax, who was replaced.
An interesting problem came up: Makuta is telepathic, has an incredibly complex mind, and his actual body is a gas. Thus, he cannot be effectively neuralyzed. Even if it worked, he could just pick up the missing memories from the agents right in front of him.
This brings me to another question: Should Teridax have OOC Immunity? The Bionicle fics featuring him are almost always replacements, from what I've seen. That, coupled with his immunity to neuralyzation and (in our mission, anyway) acceptance of the PPC as long as they don't interfere with him seems like it would add up to somebody who doesn't take crap from badfic.
I'm sure that made sense somehow. -
I don't think so. by
on 2013-05-15 15:53:00 UTC
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As far as I'm aware, complete OOC immunity is reserved for deities such as Eru and Aslan. Being God in their universe basically makes them more powerful than even the most overpowered Sue, so that's why they get it. Merely being telepathic and non-corporeal does not begin to approach that level of power.
Also, funny thing about neuralyzation: it's not actually necessary to make the canon characters forget things 100% of the time. You may notice that Jay and Acacia didn't resort to it much, if at all. The reason for this is that the canon resets itself once the majority of badfic influences are removed. Do the PPC exist in canon? No? Then, barring any convincing and preferably funny extenuating circumstances, a canon character can't remember what doesn't exist.
Neuralyzation is actually meant to be used when the memories themselves are strong enough to keep canon bent out of shape until they're gone—particularly traumatic events may need neuralyzation (and/or FicPsych); a story predicated on an angsty backstory that never happened might need neuralyzation. And yeah, it doesn't hurt to use the neuralyzer even if it isn't strictly necessary. But, if you can remove enough uncanon without it, the snapback will do the rest. Don't forget that restoring the canon is the goal of every PPC mission.
Also, speaking of FicPsych, they do have more resources than the average field agent when it comes to modifying unusual minds, so that's always an option if your tale demands complications.
~Neshomeh -
I've given the Doctor's TARDIS OOC-immunity. by
on 2013-05-15 21:08:00 UTC
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The TARDIS protects, creates, and destroys, and contains a pocket universe inside itself. She's also usually ignored by Sues, but there have been some Sues on the Circle who have interacted with the TARDIS and turned her OOC.
I feel like since the TARDIS is pretty mysterious and probably the closest thing the Whoniverse has to God (aside from being one of the hearts and the soul of the show), and can't be easily Neuralysed (now I really want to see that being attempted in FicPsych), she should be granted OOC immunity. -
A challenge, you say? *g* by
on 2013-05-15 22:26:00 UTC
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The TARDIS is about two parts sufficiently advanced technology, one part powerful psychic, yes? So, team up a couple of DoSAT's Who experts with FicPsych's resident powerful psychic, and there you go. {= )
I don't understand wanting to give characters a special untouchable status like this, to be honest. I mean, it can be funny when granted to the least likely candidate (see Gaspode the Wonder Dog), but it seems to me that it mostly just makes for an unresolvable conflict, which has no payoff in terms of storytelling, and I worry that it opens the door to agents getting a bit too cozy with powerful characters. It's hard to put my finger on it, because I can't really think of any examples of this being abused, but it just seems a little too convenient if any sufficiently powerful canon character automatically knows about the PPC and (I presume) is on the agents' side. It smells a little glittery to me.
~Neshomeh -
Have you considered OOC Resistance? by
on 2013-05-16 01:18:00 UTC
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It's far more common than outright Immunity, and it is easier to handle in missions.
The first such character was Elrond, by reason of his wisdom and his ring of power. Gimli is often ignored in badfic.
OOC Resistance comes from several sources:
--The character is not "hott" enough to be focused on by fanbrats and is simply ignored. Gimli the dwarf was one of the first established to be resistant because of this.
--The character is a minor character who is often present, but usually ignored. Gaspode, for example.
--The character is particularly perceptive or mentally resilient. Batman and Sherlock Holmes are both slightly resistant, though for them it may be more that they are capable of taking even the smallest traces left behind by agents and putting together two and two very quickly when they see more evidence of agents being around.
--The character is mildly insane--just nutty enough to entertain the idea that something like badfic could exist, and just sane enough to think straight about it. Murdoc from The A-Team, for example.
--The character is very genre-savvy and regularly breaks, or approaches breaking, the fourth wall. Elan from "Order of the Stick" would probably take agents' presence in stride as yet another feature of the story he knows he lives in.
OOC-resistant characters will usually be aware that something is off, and will struggle against possession or Suefluence, though usually not with much success. The benefits as far as your agents are concerned is that these characters are less likely to see them as enemies, more likely to understand that something is wrong and that the Sue is dangerous.
But you don't *have* to make such characters resistant. Sometimes it's funnier if they're not. Resistance is on the border--if the Sue is bad enough or the crossover is tangled enough, their resistance can get overwhelmed and they can go as badly out of character as you like. That's the beauty of OOC resistance instead of immunity; it gives you more flexibility with what you can do with the characters, rather than just forcing replacements.
If a character can't be neuralyzed, there are other options. Many magical and technological verses have memory-modification tech or spells. Harry Potter-continuum spells are probably the best bet unless the target is immune to magic. If it has a nervous system, some form of technology can probably do it.
And if you can't do any of that, then the agents might run around getting rid of everything else that doesn't fit and hope the canon itself gives them a hand.
I think it's kind of funny when agents get in way over their heads and have to solve a problem they never realized they were going to have to solve, like neuralyzing a creature that doesn't have a physical body. -
I changed it to OOC Resistant, yeah. by
on 2013-05-16 02:57:00 UTC
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And actually, since BBC!Sherlock Holmes should be OOC Resistant but often ends up Character Replaced anyway, when he gets shoved away into a plothole he quickly figures out what's going on and has been known to help agents out in the past. It's the same for BBC!Mycroft.
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I could at least give the TARDIS a degree of... by
on 2013-05-15 22:35:00 UTC
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...OOC Resistance, though?
Because I know DawnFire's got a mission where the TARDIS is character replaced, and it'd make for an interesting "Doctor's Wife"-esque mission to try and find the real TARDIS and get her back into the right place.
As I see it, the TARDIS is aware of the PPC agents and has a degree of resistance to OOC because of that power, and SUEDIS is just fun to bandy about. -
Oh, probably. by
on 2013-05-15 22:49:00 UTC
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Makes sense, since I wouldn't expect most people to remember that she's sentient. (Come to think of it, she and Moya from Farscape should hang out and commiserate sometime. "They treat me like I'm just a dumb ship, but I have feelings, too!" "I know exactly how you feel, darling. Brain the size of a planet, and what do they ask me to do? Here, have some rift energy on the rocks.")
My only real concern is that these characters don't become convenient and unfunny dei ex machina, so as long as it's kept fun and not used to give the agents special friendships with canons or get them out of plot corners all the time, I guess it doesn't really matter.
~Neshomeh -
The TARDIS... by
on 2013-05-16 12:07:00 UTC
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...tends to either be treated like a dumb ship...or, in the case of that mission Lily mentioned, *reduced to sounding like a brainless bit of fluff*, who *teases the Sue about fancying the Doctor*. And did I mention that she's also there to make the Sue look speshul? Because the Sue can hear her in her head, and the Doctor outright states in that story that normally only he can hear her.
Of course, based on canon, the TARDIS doesn't seem to actually speak--more like convey emotions. Otherwise "The Doctor's Wife" makes absolutely no sense--if she's been able to talk to the Doctor all along, why on earth would it be such a big deal for her to finally be able to tell him 'hello'? Good grief. The *entire point* of that episode is that she normally *can't* talk using words.
I'm not sure the TARDIS really can become a deus ex machina to that extent--for one thing, most human agents would have a hard time communicating with her. I mean, I could probably figure out how to exaggerate it, but it wouldn't fit in a PPC mission...but maybe that's just me.
I wonder where the real TARDIS has been shoved in that mission...look for giant plotholes, I guess.
~DF -
I thought they'd stuffed the consciousness of the TARDIS... by
on 2013-05-17 00:14:00 UTC
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...into one of the bit characters.
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Oh, wow, I hope not. by
on 2013-05-17 00:53:00 UTC
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On the other hand, that would make things easier...but wow.
I suppose I'll see what fits when I reach that point in the mission.
~DF -
What I have is that... by
on 2013-05-15 22:54:00 UTC
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...the Disentangler's favourite is the Doctor's TARDIS, so she gets protective of her if a Sue messes with her, and throughout this mission (that I may post later today) the TARDIS has been expressing her annoyance at the fic through humming and groaning, and reducing the compression from the bad dialogue spacing.
I don't think it should be a regular feature; it's just that there are upcoming missions where the TARDIS is affected by Sues, so it'd be nice to see her sane (can ships be sane?) before those missions happen. -
Okay, that makes sense to me. {= ) (nm) by
on 2013-05-15 22:58:00 UTC
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There are a few things to add to this. by
on 2013-05-15 16:02:00 UTC
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One: Teridax is essentially Bionicle's version of Satan. He hijacks the body of the Matoran god, Mata Nui (who happens to be the entire setting). I think Terry is ALMOST deific in power, akin to a titan or demigod.
Of course, this also guarantees Mata Nui possessing OOC Immunity. Such a gigantic entity with such immense power... yeah, try messing with that, Suethors. I'm tempted to say that Mata Nui IS the Bionicle canon. -
Hmm. by
on 2013-05-15 16:40:00 UTC
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Well, I don't think almost-deific qualifies for OOC immunity, or else you could make the case that a character like Q (who is not a deity, despite what he wants us to think) should have it. OOC resistance, maybe. But, these aren't traits that too many characters really ought to have; otherwise, it kind of reduces the threat posed by badfic and makes us look silly for getting all worked up about it. Plus, traditionally, OOC resistance is determined in large part by how much the badficcers ignore a particular character, thus leaving them free to notice the warping going on around them; that's why Gimli and Eowyn have it. (And also, as always, because it's entertaining for them to have it.) If badficcers are constantly going after this guy and getting him wrong, it seems to me he's probably been worn down some by the assault and more vulnerable, not less, despite his canonical power. A ton of bad writing can nerf just about anybody; that's one reason it needs PPCing.
Hm, I'm not sure if being the universe is the same as being god of that universe. Gods are typically somewhat separate from their creations. If he literally is the canon, then isn't he himself being distorted by the badfic, and thus in need of restoration by removal of all things uncanon? The canon itself shouldn't contain knowledge of an organization that doesn't exist within it, should it?
I guess a question like that requires another question to come up with the best answer: is it funnier if he remembers, or funnier if he doesn't?
~Neshomeh -
Matoran Universe clarification by
on 2013-05-15 21:01:00 UTC
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Mata Nui contains the Matoran Universe inside his original body, but he isn't the entire canon. The Matoran Universe is just the main location that most of the canon-native species are from. It's not really the whole continuum; there are other planets and locations outside of it, but it's all that the main species, the Matoran, know, thus the name. Mata Nui, when controlling the Matoran Universe, has the power to bestow life to new species, manipulate the land and gravity inside the Matoran Universe, and control the destinies of beings born within the Matoran Universe, so that's pretty godlike, at least in my opinion. When the story advances, he loses the Matoran Universe body, and the nigh-on-divine status that goes with it, and would thus lose the OOC Immunity. It's sort of like the reverse of what happened to Madoka from Puella Magi Madoka Magica, who gained OOC Immunity by ascending to godhood.
Rule of Funny should still come into play for whether or not Mata Nui-as-Matoran Universe remembers them, though. That's always best.
When you brought up Q, I suddenly realized how awful a time agents would have killing a replacement for just about anything in the Q continuum. Other than getting another Q to remove its powers, there'd be little that could weaken it, and charging it would draw its attention long enough for it to teleport its assailants into space. I do not envy the agents who first encounter one. -
That depends on which Mata Nui you're talking about. by
on 2013-05-15 16:22:00 UTC
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The synthezoid-mind Mata Nui, the being who contains all of the Bionicle setting, would likely be OOC-immune, in part because his character was never really described in the story and also because he's a nigh-on-deified machine the size of Asia with power over the entire setting.
Mata Nui the confused and separated being hiding inside the Mask of Life would not be OOC-immune, because he's an independent entity and no longer the consciousness of the Matoran Universe. Same goes for Mata Nui after he crashes on Bara Magna and builds himself a new body. He's still not a god anymore.
Also, on the matter of Teridax, you're right that neuralyzation would likely not work well on a Makuta due to their physiology, but Teridax in his original body is also not a god, and he only even qualifies to be considered as such after he hijacks the Matoran Universe body. Original Teridax would not be OOC-immune, and in fact is one of the most likely characters to be OOC that I've ever seen in Bionicle fanfic.
I'd say send him to FicPsych. The Psychs managed to remove the memories of the PPC from one of Mass Effect's drell canon characters before, and it's normally impossible for a drell to forget anything. -
...This is complex... by
on 2013-05-15 21:00:00 UTC
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I must say that this is a complex bit. As with most of the other replies, I would say it depends on what exact point this is in the canon.
If, for instance, the fic is set in the first two years, Makuta Teridax would be a being of god-like power, but he would have a physical form. At the end of the second year (Nuva storyline, I believe) that's when Makuta's body is destroyed in a very complex string of events (involving being turned into a mutated combination of Toa and Makuta, and then getting squashed) and he becomes a malevolent cloud of gas.
But, if this is set in the Metru line, which is a prequel to the first two lines, then Makuta is back in his old physical form.
After the climax of the Nuva line, Makuta remains a cloud of gas until after the Mahri line, at which point he takes over the Mata Nui robot and ejects Mata Nui inside the Mask of Life.
Then during the climax, he gets his head busted in by a falling moon.
So yes, in culmination, it would definitely depend on what line of Bionicle this is. (And yes, I'm also an extreme Bionicle nerd.) -
This made me think of another question. by
on 2013-05-15 21:08:00 UTC
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When a character is ruptured, that's often a sign that they're being possessed by a Sue-wraith, but when a Makuta is outside its body, it's in a gaseous form. Makuta can be charater-ruptured just like anything else, but what would one do about the wraith? How would a wraith possessing a gaseous Makuta be exorcised? It couldn't be smacked with anything, because of the insubstantial form of its host, but it would still need to be removed to allow the canon to snap back.
Yeah, a fellow Bionicle fan! I don't know if I gave you a newbie gift, so here, take a Kanohi Kadin, because the power of flight is fun! -
Exorcism by
on 2013-05-15 22:37:00 UTC
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Maybe try another method of exorcism that doesn't require a physical smacking? Is there an in-universe equivalent, maybe?
I guess you could always just cut through the cloud with something—giant whisks were popular exorcism tools at one point, thanks to Agent Flip Finley. I think it would be hilarious, whisking a sentient cloud of gas to remove an evil uncanon spirit. Oooh, or what about something like the proton pack and ghost trap from Ghostbusters? ^_^
~Neshomeh, who knows very little about Bionicle except that her brother owned a couple of the toys once. -
Re: Exorcism by
on 2013-05-16 00:41:00 UTC
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The only Bionicle canon-native methods I can think of for expelling spirits are a few voluntary astral projection-style ones and others that would be incredibly dangerous for the Makuta in question, so that's out, at least until someone can think of something better.
A giant whisk might work, though. The wraith certainly wouldn't be expecting it.
Your mention of a proton pack reminded me of the Luigi's Mansion-inspired idea I'd had for defeating Ghost!Sues. It would require an important Mario-universe canonical device to work, though.
Do you think DoSAT would have a Poltergust 3000(it's a big vacuum cleaner that only works on ghosts) handy, or would an agent need to nick one from its home canon? My initial impression was that a Poltergust would be too situational to keep around the lab, but then I thought that there could easily be a technician researching its properties or something of the sort, so I decided I'd need a second opinion.