Subject: On editing opinions...
Author:
Posted on: 2011-02-10 20:31:00 UTC
I am not an experienced troper, so I can't claim to know all of what they consider opinion and what they consider fact, but we left everything on YMMV and marked opinion pages alone - you are entirely right, that's things that other people are saying, on pages that agree that these are things that people are saying.
A bunch of us who hang out in the chat have noticed that there's a lot of R or even X-rated references to the PPC on TVTropes.
Speaking for myself, I'm not a fan of this. It's no surprise that people are getting very much the wrong impression about us, if this is how we look on one the main spots people find out about us.
So, we've been going through and doing some pruning. If you want in, feel free to drop by.
I was finally able to sit in on one of these trope review sessions last night. It was certainly an interesting experience, but some parts left me a little ill at ease. Don't get me wrong, the majority of the process seemed to run along rather smoothly. But, from my point of view, there are two major issues.
CONTEXT - Sometimes the calls for cutting come too fast, resulting in something getting left out of the description. One entry was almost deleted for being 'too much about the badfic' before I pointed out that it was an entry under the Fan Fic tab about legolas by laura that happened to quote the PPC. In the future, either more needs to be done to explain how entries might fit or more people need to follow along on the TV Tropes site itself, rather than just relying on someone quoting the page.
EDITING OF OPINIONS - Neshomeh asked me last night during a discussion about the Fetish Fuel Station Attendant page if opinions were to be considered sacrosanct. While I wouldn't have put it quite like that, I do believe that editing someone else's opinion for reasons of graphicness or unpleasantness is not appropriate. That's censorship. I believe that TV Tropes pages marked with the opinion header or that fall under Your Mileage May Vary should be left alone for that reason.
There you go. My two cents.
I am not an experienced troper, so I can't claim to know all of what they consider opinion and what they consider fact, but we left everything on YMMV and marked opinion pages alone - you are entirely right, that's things that other people are saying, on pages that agree that these are things that people are saying.
I have to agree. There's been at least one trope that I've rescued by a timely last-minute explanation of why the trope fit. Also, TV Tropes rules pretty much state that you don't remove things from the YMMV tropes unless you put it up there yourself, though I haven't seen any of that going on yet.
Both of those things are why it's a committee operation (and the first one is why KG kept getting angry when people said stuff before he was done pasting). Neither of those examples were actually cut, or even altered IIRC, precisely because someone spoke up and argued. That's how it goes. If someone doesn't agree, the group talks about why and then starts again.
On a personal note, it's more the implication of the wording in question than anything else that concerns me, and my vote was not for cutting that example, but rather for editing the oddly specific part. If someone thinks Lux is a Fetish Fuel Station Attendant, that's fine with me--and also, I get now that TVTropes has a policy about those types of pages, so thanks for pointing it out--but I still hope there's some avenue for us to strive to correct misleading information where we find it. I would like to protect the ability of newcomers to form their own opinions from the actual source material, rather than getting a wrong turn from the outset from someone who perhaps didn't think that far ahead. So, that's where I'm coming from.
And, once again, I'll point out that the committee was swayed in favor of leaving it alone anyway. If you're still concerned, though, I think you can get the records of other sessions from Artell. What has been done can, in fact, be undone if need be.
~Neshomeh
Definitely not a fan here, either. Never seen such things myself, but I'm not over there very often. I might have some free time coming up in which I could help, but I'm not sure where to look. Any pointers? Or do you guys have it well in hand?
I think we're something like halfway done. We're doing it by committee in the IRC, voting on what stays and what goes.
The speed of this process has me a little concerned. What references were so offensive to have people up in arms? Who are the people on these committees? I (and others, I'm sure) don't go to the IRC on a regular basis, so this whole process feels a bit exclusionary.
I'm not a TV Tropes contributor, but I do consult it from time to time. Heck, that was how I got introduced to the PPC. I'm not saying don't change things that appear to be over-the-top offensive, but such a process should be approached with a little more diligence. Haste makes waste, you know.
It's been whoever has been in the IRC at the time - certainly a biased sample, but one selected by chance, rather than experience. Just to name some names, though, myself, VM, JulyFlame, Artell, Whin, Plat, and Miah come to mind.
You're right, this probably should have been discussed here first. Things hit a tipping point last week when we started noticing some of the examples that July listed below, and we dove in without thinking.
I've no problem with you guys making the to-delete-or-not choices yourselves; I know you have heads on your shoulders. Good luck. :)
More opinions are always welcome.
Honestly, nowadays I'm lucky to have time to drop by the Board and see if there've been any new emergencies. I think it's been two months since I last greeted a newbie. Besides my crazy life, Trojie's wedding is this week and I've got even more to do before flying up to meet her and Pads. So thanks, and I'd like to, but I don't see it happening :( The IRC chat has never worked very well for me anyway.
I mentioned quite a few things in there. What provoked such a reaction?
I hadn't heard. (Not that I had any reason to hear; I don't talk to PPCers much outside of here, the wiki, and the chat.) I also kinda figured the next wedding announcement around here would be mine, so I'm slightly surprised at being beaten to it. ^_~
Anyway, congratulations to the happy couple!
~Neshomeh
I know Trojie was talking about it ages ago, so I assumed most relative-oldbies, at least, knew. I'm not sure if she's going to make an announcement here, actually, though given that three PPCers will be in the same place at the same time, she might. I'm not sure. I'd ask right now but she's up to her ears in maddening preperations.
Out of curiosity, when is your wedding? I knew you were engaged, but that's about it.
My memory is terrible, so it's entirely possible that I heard and forgot.
And, we actually just recently got around to starting serious plans ourselves, so we hadn't said anything yet. Since we're on the subject, though, we're now looking at August 6th for certain. There definitely will be more talk about it here, since we're thinking of cruising around the British Isles afterward, and I know I'd like to meet up with friends if possible. So, yeah. More to come on that. ^_^
~Neshomeh
Do keep us updated :)
My regards to Trojie and Pads!
(I don't suppose you have a mailing address for Trojie? I'd like to send a present.)
Send me an email? Or send her an email? I'd rather not put such things up in public.
I'm afraid I don't have either yours or hers - would you mind E-mailing me with them? You can get to me at Techno.Dann@gmail.com
(I get plenty of spam already, it's not like listing it here will hurt anything.)
Rape As Comedy, Sexual Karma, Even Evil Has Standards (with us as the named evil), and I'm sure someone remembers all the ones I don't.
The other problem, which was not quite as alarming as the above, but still a serious issue, was that... guessing here, I don't have the numbers, at least 2/3 of the references were not about the PPC, but about a specific two spin-offs, or about OFUR. People should come to the PPC because they're looking for us, not OFUR and things like suicide played for laughs.
We're halfway done because we've been going at it for three days or so by now. Trust me, it's not a "This? Cut. This? Cut. This? Keep." sort of thing - every trope has been voted on and discussed at length, and if we can't reach a majority, the consensus automatically goes to keep.
Even Evil Has Standards:
One of the easiest ways to highlight just how bad something or someone evil is: have an otherwise-remorseless villain reject it.
Protectors Of The Plot Continuum usually do their best to save Mary Sues' children, if they're not Sues themselves. They also seem to have a restriction on killing Sues in any way which involves rape - Agents Laburnum and Foxglove are responsible for two of these methods actually being banned more specifically (the Redneck Trees and Drip Tiberius Rat), and got in big trouble for them, though since the Marty Stus executed thus had committed graphic rape themselves they got in slightly less trouble than they otherwise would. In Laburnum's words:
"I always thought that rape was the one unforgivable crime, and there was no way of justifying it at all. However, I'm prepared to make an exception in your case."
"So you're letting us go?"
"Nope. I was talking about your punishment, not your crime."
And then the Sunflower Official informs Laburnum and Foxglove that using the Redneck Trees as a form of execution comes under the heading of "Going Too Far Even For The PPC". The use of historical atrocities such as the Holocaust as an assassination method is similarly forbidden; it's unknown if anyone has actually done it, however. Torture is also not allowed, and tends to result in arrest; torturing a Sue generally earns a reprimand, while torturing an agent can get one thrown out of the organisation entirely.
Also, HQ bicycle Agent Lux glomps and gropes anyone who stands still long enough, but the only time she's been seen genuinely angry onscreen was when she walked into a scene where the villain was about to rape his six-year-old daughter. ("Mulla" was adopted and renamed Molly. Possibly bringing her home wasn't the best idea.)
""Fine, fine," Lux muttered. "Snot like she's a real kid, you know. . ." The words died in her mouth as she stepped through the portal and took in the scene at the other end. Mulla the ferretmaid lay curled up on Sawney's bedroll, shaking as the Juskarath chieftain loomed over her. She looked like she was about to start crying. "Nevermind ..."
One of Lux's recent paramours was seventeen, but they were - technically - in the UK, where that's over the age of consent (16), so it was okay. Or it would have been had they been of normally-compatible species, so as it was, age was the least of the onlooker's worries.
Improvised Weapon:
A creative fighting tactic used by unarmed people in any situation: Make what's around you a weapon. Even outside the dangerous environments, there's a lot of stuff to try. Anything can be used as a club if it's sturdy enough, and most stuff will develop a sharp edge if properly coaxed. For comedy value, go as wacky as you like.
Protectors Of The Plot Continuum does this a lot. Beating people with books is part of the exorcists' usual modus operandi, as they need to knock the canon back into the characters in question. One particularly impressive example involved Agent Drake beating a victim to death with a dildo (which she had just finished using).
O Ring Orifice:
Protectors Of The Plot Continuum occasionally finds and mocks instances of this, as in one story where a guy successfully fits his penis inside another guy's urethra. And you wondered why Mary Sues must die ... Also, the incident in which a Plot Hole (which, in the PPC universe, are literal wormholes in which the characters the Sues have replaced are hidden for the duration of the fic) was found inside a Sue's uterus, resulting in a particularly disgusting scene in which she gave birth to the full-sized teenage girl she'd been imitating. This shows up so often it's listed on their Charges page on the Wiki as "Not There".
Rape As Comedy:
* Using rape in a disrespectful manner is officially disapproved of by the ProtectorsOfThePlotContinuum, but in higher-rated missions it has been used twice (by the same writer) as a CrossesTheLineTwice-type gag. Once, two "pointless rapist bit-characters" were executed by means of the Redneck Trees of Something Positive, and another time a Villain Stu who did unspeakably Squicky things to the cute little animals of OverTheHedge was given to Drip Rat of the webcomic Jack in retaliation. The agents involved were punished and forced into therapy, but it was played for slightly-uneasy laughs onscreen. The same agents recently sporked a fic which featured the Narmful line "There's nothing more painful than being anally raped!!" It shows exactly how AxCrazy these two are that their first response, after they'd stopped laughing, was "Yes there is" According to Agent Laburnum, a basic rule of fic sporking is "any fic with the word 'rape' in its title is probably going to be brain-meltingly bad".
Those examples don't look like good advertising for the PPC...
If we just cut out the dildo part, Improvised Weapon would certainly be a very PPC-like technique. Maybe we could substitute another example?
I'm just showing it since the existing example there is utmost foul.
Definitely not advertising I'd want associated with the PPC. Blech.
Out of curiosity, which two spin-offs were they?
They get a disproportionate amount of attention on TV Tropes, which Laburnum has been called on before.
While I'm a little dismayed that this wasn't announced to the board until today if it's been going on for a few days, I appreciate you taking the time to explain the process that you're all going through. Much obliged.
it's the only way to collaboratively go through all the entries in a somewhat expedient fashion. Trawling through TvTropes entries and deciding what to do with them on the Board would take nightmarishly long, be a logistical mess and pretty much take up all the business of the board. We are talking about nearly four hundred entries most of which needed at least some editing.
I get that doing this on the board would have been a huge hassle. My problem was that there wasn't something posted on the board when the process began. The way the first few posts had been set up, it sounded to me like this idea had been conceived of and implemented to the halfway point in only a few hours.
I grok what you're all getting at now. Thanks.
The list when we started was 389 items long, if I recall. And I'm reasonably certain someone's been keeping track of what we deleted (JulyFlame, possibly?) so that if there's an issue, we can revisit them. But I do not think anyone wants a vote and discussion on the 'Board of every single trope there.
My IRC client keeps logs automatically, the entire process ought to be available through those. I can try edit them together and put them up at some point but I'll need a bunch of spare time to do it.
Some of these "trope examples" linking back to PPC have been terrible and vile and I am not going to reproduce any of it here because it's that bad.
I get the feel that maybe someone has been reading so much badfic it has begun to rub off on them. When you stare long enough into the abyss, and so on.