I wonder if syllabic stress plays a part?

Subject: I wonder if syllabic stress plays a part?
Author: Neshomeh
Posted on: 2013-05-06 17:55:00 UTC

All of the examples you listed have a strong first-syllable stress:

- GLAUrung!

- BOCce balls!

- FLAming DENethor!

Even some of the longer ones have a good rhythm going for them:

- RADagast onna BUNny sled!

- JADis inna BLOCK of ICE!

But if you look at a couple others:

- thranDUIL onna MOOSE!

- piCARD inna DUNE buggy!

There's a delay before you get to the satisfyingly explosive syllable.

Just another theory.

~Neshomeh

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Nomination for a new Creative Curse. by DawnFire on 2013-05-06 16:09:00 UTC Reply

Hi everyone!

As some of you* may know, a new Creative Curse has been discovered, and is in the process of passing into use**. It was first mentioned in this post, and jumped on in the subsequent replies. It comes from the Star Trek movie Nemesis, and is "Picard in a dune buggy" (there's a picture in the linked post). From what Hermione of Vulcan said (paraphrased), more time is spent on on Picard in a dune buggy than the potentially good plot.

(In the spirit of the Multiverse Monitor: "The dune buggy is just the most egregious example of spending too much time on special effects and not enough on characterization and, well, plot," wrote Hermione of Vulcan in her original post on the Board. ((And, less in the spirit of the MM and more in the spirit of, shall we say, Shakespeare:)) "'Picard in a dune buggy'?" quoth DawnFire thereafter. "Is that joining the list of Creative Curses? Because I'd use that. We need some Trek ones." And, following that, Outhra said--well, something that is best seen in its entirety.)

So, what say you? Shall "Picard in a dune buggy" join the PPC's list of Creative Curses? Let all in favor raise their hands into the air and shout "Aye!" or a variant thereon!

~DawnFire

*Alright, probably just Hermione of Vulcan, Outhra, and I, unless you've been reading our posts and not replying.

**Ie, on last count, Hermione and I are both planning on using it, and Outhra supports it.

Wait, I have a question. by Neshomeh on 2013-05-07 03:36:00 UTC Reply

My question is: is this really something that should be decided by committee? I think, and I could be wrong, but I think that most of what else is on that list got there because of actual popularity in usage. Like, if you go through LotR missions, you're going to find some "Flaming Denethor!"s and "Glaurung!"s in more than a few. They're not listed arbitrarily.

Heck, I'm not even sure "Thranduil on a moose!" deserves to be up there, and it was my idea. So... maybe see if people actually like this enough to use it in stories, then talk about putting it on the wiki?

~Neshomeh

P.S. If you're looking for good, serviceable Trekverse curses, why not ~~Zoidberg~~ Klingon? I know for a fact Trekkie agents have used Klingon expletives before.

Good idea. by hermione of vulcan on 2013-05-07 12:48:00 UTC Reply

The Klingon, that is. I actually own a Klingon dictionary, so I'll see if I can construct something that means Mary Sue. If not, there's always petaQ.

I am a complete newbie when it comes to Klingons. by DawnFire on 2013-05-07 17:27:00 UTC Reply

What does petaQ mean? And can I occasionally consult you on Klingon dialogue, when I actually end up with a place to use it?

~DF

It's a curse. by hermione of vulcan on 2013-05-07 21:00:00 UTC Reply

Sorry I didn't make that clear. I'm planning to have an agent end a charge list with "...and for generally being a canon-warping petaQ!" It's also the only Klingon curse I know off the top of my head.

Oh, besides that if you add the suffix 'jay, which means "intensely", to the end of any Klingon phrase, it makes the phrase a curse. For example, jiSaHbe' (roughly pronounced ji-SHAKH-be) means "I don't care", while jiSaHbe' jay' is "I don't [bleep]ing care" or, more loosely translated, "I don't give a [bleep]!"

Certainly, you can consult me. I'll have to consult the dictionary (I just did, to get the proper spellings) but yes, I can help.

No, I got that--I was wondering what it meant. by DawnFire on 2013-05-07 21:18:00 UTC Reply

Hm, that sounds rather fun. And I will definitely consult you.

Funny how this works...I used to think that I'd never really get into Klingon culture/language/etc, and that I'd just stick with Vulcans--I even learned bits of the Vulcan language at one point. I even still remember it. And then I spent a lot of time developing a Vulcan OC.

And yet...here I am with a Klingon agent. It's an interesting ride...

*adds your example to a list of things for Kozar to say at some point*

Out of curiosity, which agent are you planning to have using that?

~DF

I come bearing a link! by Outhra on 2013-05-08 01:28:00 UTC Reply

The definition and pronunciation of petaQ is only a few words away.

Looking around sources of Klingon words makes me realize that the language has some wacky capitalization rules. I'd practically need to carry the dictionary around with me to remember how to capitalize the letters correctly and insert apostrophes in the right places. I have a new level of respect for people who know their way around that language now.

Fair point. by DawnFire on 2013-05-07 08:35:00 UTC Reply

Maybe we can go with, once it's been in at least one mission, or enough people are using it on the Board, it gets added? I tried the committee way because it seemed like a logical idea, but I don't think I was a Boarder when the last Creative Curses came into use (hence this).

As to Klingon...I'm writing a Klingon agent, so he'll most likely swear in Klingonese at some point. Actually, I'm planning on that.

Although thanks for (somehow) reminding me that I can have an agent swear in Gnommish, because Artemis Fowl does, in fact, exist as a canon. And no, I have no idea how what you wrote reminded me of that.

~DF

Something like that, yeah. by Neshomeh on 2013-05-07 16:53:00 UTC Reply

I don't think a use in just one mission counts as popularity, but general Board and/or mission use, or extensive use by just one person (e.g., I think it was just Tawaki who used "Jadis in a block of ice!" a lot), that would count. But it's only going to become apparent after a decent period of time.

I guess my point is that I think the wiki should be descriptive, not prescriptive. In other words, adding ideas to the wiki is not the correct way to make them happen; but making ideas happen is the correct way to get them on the wiki.

~Neshomeh

Alright, that makes sense. by DawnFire on 2013-05-07 17:30:00 UTC Reply

Although, one thing--adding terms to the wiki also raises awareness. For instance, I started using 'Radagast on a bunny sled' after clicking on it curiously on the wiki. The resulting gif was so ridiculous that I decided it was going to be a new catchphrase (or something like that) of mine. Then again, that's an isolated case, and I do definitely agree with what you said.

~DF

No argument from me. {= ) by Neshomeh on 2013-05-07 19:41:00 UTC Reply

The wiki definitely raises awareness. {= ) It's kind of a double-edged sword, though, since it can raise awareness of anything, whether it deserves awareness or not. That's actually one reason I created the No Links and Source Needed categories. Especially in No Links, there are a lot of instances of people adding agents they planed to use, and then never got around to for whatever reason, leaving behind dead-end articles destined to frustrate anyone who comes across them. Source Needed is about helping people find where specific ideas come from, and also to discourage people from making stuff up and playing it off as "official" just because it's on the wiki.

To be fair, most of the Source Needed stuff and even some of the No Links articles probably can be substantiated; I just don't always know where to go looking. If you're ever in need of a project... *wink wink nudge nudge*

(Though that reminds me, I do know about Springfield Sue. I should go fix that right now.)

~Neshomeh

Heh. I'll take a look. by DawnFire on 2013-05-07 21:23:00 UTC Reply

I actually once wrote a missing page--I think it was on the definition of 'distinguish', or something? Anyway, it was really fun; I took a dictionary definition, paraphrased it, wrote PPC-specific examples, and credited the source. It was a blast :)

'Springfield Sue'?

Also, random question that I may or may not have asked you already: I know (or rather, I've seen evidence for this fact) that you took your screenname from the Hebrew word for 'soul'. Is there a reason you rendered it as 'Neshomeh' rather than 'Neshamah'? Just curious (and have been for a while). Especially seeing as I speak Hebrew. So, yeah. Is there a reason? (Actually, of course there's a reason. But could you enlighten me as to what it is?)

~DF

Reason by Neshomeh on 2013-05-07 22:44:00 UTC Reply

It's not a good reason, but I actually found the word in an English-Yiddish dictionary. If I remember right, the version I'm using was listed as an alternative spelling of the Yiddish version, "neshomah." I guess I like Es better than As? *shrug*

Springfield is fun. She was a LotR Sue written by someone who knew nothing about Middle-earth. Thus, she is an elf explicitly named after Springfield, Illinois. Agents Suicide and Ithalond dealt with her in "In Which Logic Is Seen as Optional, at Best."

Heh, I remember seeing the "Distinguish" page. I sort of wondered why you bothered at first, since it just exists to demonstrate the template and doesn't strictly need content, but then I realized it was funny and got rid of a redlink besides, so thanks. {= )

~Neshomeh

Hey, I never said it had to be a good reason :) by DawnFire on 2013-05-07 23:31:00 UTC Reply

That makes a lot of sense, if you found it in an English-Yiddish dictionary--the word is Hebrew, but it would be pronounced differently in Yiddish, although it kind of looks like you know that. And I think there would be some Yiddish speakers who would pronounce it as 'neshomeh'; it certainly sounds right in my head.

Seriously? Oh, wow. That sounds...interesting. I may even have read that mission--let me check. Yes, I have. I just don't remember much about the Sue herself. I knew that title looked familiar!

Well, it was a redlink :) And the home page says that redlinks should be filled in if you have time, and I had some time. And then I got the idea of doing PPC-specific examples, and it was just too much fun not to do. And besides, we have pages for Good, Bad, and all sorts of other things like that, so it seemed to fit in. Glad it got noticed, though :)

~DF

If you ever need help with the KlingonÂ… by hermione of vulcan on 2013-05-07 12:51:00 UTC Reply

I have a Klingon dictionary. Also, the word yich may be useful. (It means tribble.)

Oh, and while I've got your attention... by DawnFire on 2013-05-07 17:46:00 UTC Reply

Just wanted to mention that I submitted a fanstudent (fanbrat? Fanbrat.) to OFAS here, and I'm not sure you saw that, so...here I am, drawing attention to it.

This is what happens when you take an earlier version of a character and distort her, by the way. It was...interesting.

~DF

I did notice. by hermione of vulcan on 2013-05-07 21:06:00 UTC Reply

Sorry I didn't reply, but yes, the application is accepted. Geordi has a luster! Yay for Geordi. Of course, he'll be disappointed that she knows so little about TNG, but still, Geordi is the Gimli of TNG - friends with the most popular Lust Object, but shunted off whenever the Sue wants to be with them.

Ah, ok. by DawnFire on 2013-05-07 21:30:00 UTC Reply

Just wanted to be sure, since I didn't get that reply :)

Really? But--but the actor's reasonably attractive, and he's got the VISOR for a Cool Factor, and--and--no, doesn't compute that he wouldn't have many lusters. I mean, I like Data, Data's cool, but...Geordi's also pretty cool...and...well, actually, together they make for an interesting team, but I don't see why Geordi has so few lusters. Do you have an explanation for this phenomenon? I'm honestly kind of baffled by it.

On the other hand, maybe Data just gets more character development?

As for the lack of TNG knowledge, meh. She can learn. I'm sure she'd be happy to spend some time marathoning TNG; I'd do that if I had the time and energy and had already finished TOS (yes, yes, I know. I'm at the end of the third season. I'm a terrible fan, I know. Go away.) (Maybe at some point she misses class to marathon TNG and is found on a sugar-and-lack-of-sleep high several days later? And then all she does is babble about canon facts and all sorts of things about the plot and the characters and all the ships she now, er, ships? I don't know. Your choice, obviously. You're the author).

But, Picard on a dune buggy, this was fun to write. I know I've said that several times already, but it was seriously fun to write. Mostly because I kept putting in references to the actual story and giggling at it.

~DF

Here, have some stats. by hermione of vulcan on 2013-05-08 02:45:00 UTC Reply

On FFN, there are 20 stories filtered through Geordi and romance. (This is out of 3,000+ TNG stories) Of these:
10 of them are Data/Geordi
3 are slash with characters I don't recognize, possibly one episode characters (All of these are written by the same author)
2 are het with one shot characters
1 is a Data/OC/Geordi love triangle
And 2 are actually Geordi/OC.

In contrast, there are 109 stories filtered through Data and romance. Of these:
26 are Data/Yar
10 are Data/Geordi
This means roughly 64 are minority pairings (e.g. Data/Troi) and Data/OC. Even half of that is 32 Data/OC fics.

So, it seems to be true. The only theory I have is this: in initial drafts of the show, Geordi was gay, and perhaps some of that sneaked into his characterization and subtextually puts off lusters.

That feels like I'm going out on a limb, but more than half of Geordi's romance fics are slash. Maybe I'm actually onto something. (Or I'm just biased because I sort of support Data/Geordi.)

Yum, stats *munches* by DawnFire on 2013-05-08 12:44:00 UTC Reply

But, look, a character being gay doesn't exactly put off lusters.

I mean, have you ever taken a look at Glee fanfics? Admittedly, the characters there are openly gay on the show, but the fandom is full of slash pairings AND het pairings, and they don't really seem to care much about the sexual identity of the characters--Kurt, for instance, is paired with Blaine, Karofsky, Quinn, Rachel, and, in earlier days of the show, Finn--and that's only to name a few. Santana gets paired with plenty of people as well. I don't really know the status of OCs in that fandom, but if we ignore that...a character being gay doesn't really seem to put people off these days.

On the other hand, what do I know? I haven't even seen that much of TNG. I just remember thinking that Geordi's a pretty cool character, and he and Data amuse me when they have conversations. I don't know.

Although, can you explain to me the attraction to Data? Because the character is interesting, but I don't really think I'd start writing romance fics with him in them. It just...doesn't quite work.

On the other hand, I may just have an older conception of what an android is? Most of my knowledge is from TOS...

~DF

I should pay more attention to posts that reply to my posts. by DawnFire on 2013-05-07 17:34:00 UTC Reply

I completely missed this...

Ok, so basically, I'll assume that the answer to my question about consulting you on Klingon dialogue is a yes?

Yich means tribble. Got it. That should prove extremely useful, especially seeing as that's one of the main reasons why Kozar requested a transfer--Dawn refused to get rid of the tribble. I mean, there were several other issues, but that was a big one.

And of course the Klingon word for tribble corresponds to an English noise of disgust. Of course.

(By the way--Trek question that I've been wondering about for a while. Is Federation Standard actually English, or is it a completely new language? I can't figure it out, and I keep forgetting to try to research it...)

~DF

Star Trek Language by Outhra on 2013-05-07 18:10:00 UTC Reply

Most Federation matters are dealt with in English after it became the dominant human language for some reason, but the other languages still exist. Captain Picard knows French, for instance. Even the other alien races have multiple languages sometimes, for that matter. I remember someone saying that Romulans had three languages, and the Xindi had at least two.

I've never heard of a Federation Standard, but I'd guess that if it's the diplomacy-based language its name implies that it is, it would probably be modified English to make it more convenient for alien speakers. That's just a guess, though, because like I said, I don't know where that term came from.

Sure! by Ailavyn Siniyash on 2013-05-07 02:29:00 UTC Reply

I'm not a Trekkie, or even a TV/movie person in general, but, well, it sound fine and I don't see why not.

-Aila
I'd say so by Sevenswans on 2013-05-06 19:47:00 UTC Reply

Because, there are some characters who will always resort to 'Fudge' (Only I didn't say Fudge. I said it. The Queen Mother of all dirty words. The F dash dash dash word... Sorry guys, I just realized that my "A Christmas Story," paraphrase needs some work...) but there are other characters who will be more interesting. It also depends on the situation... somebody else mentioned cursing when you hit your thumb with a hammer, but usually all I get out in that case is an incoherent scream of rage, and it's when I'm angry at someone that the long profane speech comes out.

That's a yes vote for me.
Crikey, all this from one mention of Nemesis! by Cyba Zero on 2013-05-06 19:06:00 UTC Reply

However, I'm all for it. I agree we could use some Trek ones. Besides, Flaming Denethor suits Eagrus fine, but it doesn't really fit with Cyba.
It might work... by Tariphe on 2013-05-06 18:03:00 UTC Reply

I am not a good judge though. I have read through previous posts and see a point in everything said. It just is not something I would normally use, as it does not roll off the tongue. But then, there are many curses in my language that do not really roll of tongue either - the most common one includes listing all the family members you can think of (and the level of your anger is measured by the number of family members you can list).

Whoa, that sounds interesting! by DawnFire on 2013-05-06 18:08:00 UTC Reply

What language is that? And how does that work--you just list all the first names of family members that you can think of? What's the rationale behind that?

(Sorry, but...fascinated.)

~DF

Re: Whoa, that sounds interesting! by Tariphe on 2013-05-06 20:48:00 UTC Reply

It is Serbian language.
(Croatian, Bosnian and Montenegrin have same principles... and, well, sound exactly the same, but do not tell that to typical citizen of any of the four countries)

And, no, you do not list first names, but the relations - typically starting off with mother or father (in my area, it is usually mother)

...and uncle (mother's brother), and aunt (his wife), and sister, and other aunt (parent's sister), and uncle (father's brother), and grandma, and children...

Most offensive version is the one where you start with "blood", "bread" or "God" - "blood" relates to "all your ancestors and descendants" and "bread" is "food".

While shorter versions (no relations, or just one) is in line with "I stubbed my toe and it hurts like hell" type of curses, anything more is sign of real anger. The trick is in intimidation and hurting what one holds dear.

I like. by Lily Winterwood on 2013-05-06 17:46:00 UTC Reply

I tend to see the longer curses as something you say when exasperated, like "oh Darwin on a Beagle, will the Sue stop singing?!" So it works for me.
I don't know... by Phobos on 2013-05-06 16:33:00 UTC Reply

Personally, I like my curses to roll off the tongue. Something you can just shout if you say, hit your thumb with a hammer. "Picard in a dune buggy" doesn't meet that criteria, for me. You'd probably have to think about it to use this one and if you have time to think before cursing, you probably didn't hit your thumb hard enough to warrant it.

-Phobos

I dunno... by DawnFire on 2013-05-06 16:40:00 UTC Reply

It works for me. Er, not that I hit my thumb with a hammer, but--

But then again, I'm a self-professed Trekkie, so it may be that...?

~DF

Let me see if I can explain what I mean by Phobos on 2013-05-06 17:01:00 UTC Reply

Let's look at curses in the real world and the PPC.

Most popular, by far, are single syllable curses, most of which I won't reproduce here. They are quick and easy to say. Some cleaner choices would be 'Frak', 'Frell', or 'Shards', which are all used around here on occasion.

Then you have two syllable curses. Still pretty easy to say without thinking. 'Glaurung' is a good example. You can also add -ing to the end of many of the one syllable curses.

Three syllables works well, too. 'Bocce Balls' is one of my favorites from an episode Family Guy. Not the most explicit, perhaps, but it got the point across.

The upper end, for me, is really about 5 syllables. 'Flaming Denethor' is something I could imagine someone actually shouting.

Looking at the list of Creative Curses on the Wiki, I am actually not sure how many of them would actually work if spoken out loud. They tend to be long and cumbersome. They might work, for some, when on a page, but curses were meant to be yelled/shouted/bellowed or otherwise shared with the neighborhood.

But that is just me. Being in theatre, my expertise is in the spoken word, not the written. In fact, I have to say everything I read or write in my head before it can make the transition between the page and my brain. So, when I read something like that, I read it as it would be spoken, and something that is seven syllables long just doesn't work very well.

-Phobos

Elf-style response. by Huinesoron on 2013-05-08 21:17:00 UTC Reply

(I.e. 'Do not go to the elves for counsel...')

In my own so-called real life, I regularly use multi-word exclamations. "Sweet burning stars!" is probably the most common, alongside "Stars and water!". I got good use out of "Shards and fething shells!" at one point, but that's been somewhat sidelined.

A lot of the time, I feel that a single-word doesn't really convey the feeling very well. A phrase seems more apt.

On the other hand, my primary two examples there are both four syllables...

hS
I wonder if syllabic stress plays a part? by Neshomeh on 2013-05-06 17:55:00 UTC Reply

All of the examples you listed have a strong first-syllable stress:

- GLAUrung!

- BOCce balls!

- FLAming DENethor!

Even some of the longer ones have a good rhythm going for them:

- RADagast onna BUNny sled!

- JADis inna BLOCK of ICE!

But if you look at a couple others:

- thranDUIL onna MOOSE!

- piCARD inna DUNE buggy!

There's a delay before you get to the satisfyingly explosive syllable.

Just another theory.

~Neshomeh
It's all about the way the syllables flow, I think. by Outhra on 2013-05-06 17:46:00 UTC Reply

I'm not going to claim to be an expert, but I have experience in the most effective ways to shout things, so I think I can weigh in here.

Most multi-syllable shouts and curses rise and fall in emphasis. While "Thraunduil on a moose!" is still not a very good shout because the syllables aren't balanced very well, the "Radagast on a bunny sled!" curse inspired by the same movie can easily be delivered a two separate but linked exclamations, rising and falling as the first leads into the second.
"RAD}a{GAST}on a{BUNNY}sled!"
My markers for sound shifts are a little vague there, since I couldn't use the > or
Likewise, "Picard on a dune buggy!" can render as Pi{CARD}on a {DUNE}buggy!", or other, related forms that use two-syllable emphasis like in "GLAURUNG" and the aforementioned "BUNNY", such as "PICARD" rather than Pi}CARD, or three syllable emphasis, in case someone wants emphasize all of "DUNE BUGGY".

This went into a lot more detail than I thought it would, but I find it difficult to paraphrase this sort of thing, so it was either lots of analysis or not enough.
Ok, I think I understand. by DawnFire on 2013-05-06 17:15:00 UTC Reply

After saying 'Picard in a dune buggy' and several other similar phrases out loud, I think I see what you're talking about. On the other hand, I'm not really proposing that it should be used out loud; I'm proposing that it should be used on a page, in-universe. I find that on a page it works quite well, and that it also works very well in my head (probably because I can think faster than I can speak). That coupled with the various properties of HQ means (in my mind, anyway) that the somewhat unlikely both works and is plausible. (Also, if we deny 'Picard on a dune buggy' based on its length, then we should also deny phrases like 'Jadis in a block of ice' and 'Radagast on a bunny sled', which, while newer than Flaming Denethor, have already passed into common use and are therefore rather difficult to remove.) Of course, this is my opinion, and that's yours...I guess we'll just have to see what everyone else thinks?

You've made some very interesting points about swearing, though, so thanks for that :)

~DF