A Question about 'Sues

Subject: A Question about 'Sues
Author: Lleu
Posted on: 2010-07-26 16:48:00 UTC

And I don't mean to stir up controversy if it has. It's just something that came to me yesterday when I was reading "Ashes to Glory". As I read it, "Ashes to Glory" isn't strictly a criticism of the PPC, but rather of the PPC's generally violent methods.

So, question: do all 'Sues have to be killed? I mean this question in two ways: first, is there something I didn't notice which means that 'Sues have to be killed in order for canon to revert? Second, more philosophically, are there no 'Sues who could be humanely disposed of in other ways? Have 'Sues ever been recruited? I know there are bit character Agents, but are there ex-'Sue Agents I haven't noticed?

I'm thinking particularly in the context of "Ashes to Glory" — couldn't "Asherazel Morningstar", the uncanonical second daughter of Elrond who is apparently quite pretty but seems to be utterly useless otherwise and frankly quite stupid, just be transposed somewhere to, like, a holodeck somewhere that would have lots of holographic CAFs and a boundary around it to suppress the Aura of Smooth (if such a boundary exists — and if it doesn't, we should probably put DoSAT to work inventing it)?

Not that I sympathize with 'Sues extensively, but it does seem to me that at least a few of the ones who aren't warping canon as extensively really have no idea that they're doing anything wrong — wouldn't it be more humane to just put them somewhere out of the way where they can't hurt anyone, themselves included?

There are probably some 'Sues who are warping canon extensively that don't know they're doing anything wrong, but somehow I can't find it in my heart to sympathize with, for example, Tenth (or Eleventh) Walkers.

Again, I'm pretty sure this must have come up before, but I thought I'd ask and see what people thought. If this has already been talked to death, I apologize.

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A Question about 'Sues by Lleu on 2010-07-26 16:48:00 UTC

Also a question about Sues; slightly relevant by Eclectus on 2010-07-26 22:55:00 UTC Reply

I was just looking at Architeuthis' first mission, and I noticed something that jumped out at me (not literally. This is the PPC, after all--you never know).

"...concerns of the PPC include Transdimensional Hopping (wherein the fanfic writer sends herself and/or other people into another dimension..."

I've never seen any missions regarding this, so it confuses me. Would this mean that the author herself is in the canon, rather than a Suvian stand-in as in the case of OC-fics? In that case, would the Agents have to return the (neuralyzed) author to World One without killing her? I don't know what our policy is about World One inhabitants invading and mucking with canon, but it seems to me that the Flowers would frown upon the killing of real people as opposed to parasitic mockeries.

Can't expect people to have read every PPC mission out there by IndeMaat on 2010-07-28 11:13:00 UTC Reply

But there are PPC missions dealing with transdimensional hopping. Well, there should be more than one, as I believe getting pulled into TV during thunderstorm is a rather popular trope.

The one mission I know of that deals with this: Kelly meets MacGyver.

I've seen another fic that deals with transdimensional hopping, i.e. ending up in ones favourite tv show, but that was actually goodfic.
Right... by raffitz on 2010-07-26 23:31:00 UTC Reply

In my opinion, self-insertions are killable Mary Sues, while "Transdimensional hopping" requires the character to be aware that the world that surrounds it is not real (Which doesn't happen frequently), and they shouldn't be killed, because they belong somewhere else.
However, I seriously doubt that the character represents the author faithfully, so I guess a neuralization would be necessary.

Transdimensional hopping by Calista on 2010-07-27 03:18:00 UTC Reply

Depends on the fic. I've not seen one like this yet, but basically, you have to ask--is the character an idealized Mary Sue, or is she more of a silly fangirl having fun with the continuum?

So, if you have a "girl drops into middle earth" fic where the OC joins the fellowship, you're looking at a pretty typical Sue doing transdimensional hopping. These get sent to DMS and an assassination mission.

On the other hand, you have a self-insert doing transdimensional hopping, using the continuum as her playground. These kinds of stories are generally very silly and filled with references to how Hott the fangirl's LO is; the plot is likely to be replaced by things like introducing Legolas to the wonders of pizza or teaching Frodo how to play Tetris. There's a great deal of cultural contamination; but the OC is an avatar of the Author. These are generally little more than an author having some non-serious badly-written fun, in which case you neuralyze, put her back in her own world, and make heavy use of your Despatch kit. Oh, and send that fangirl to an OFU, ASAP.

An attempt at a serious story that results in a self-insert is usually a Mary Sue. Bad parody and bad humor are much more likely to be simple transdimensional hopping.

Check the missions from Despatch. They usually deal with transdimensional snatching, but hopping (i.e., an author avatar jumping to the canon world) is very similar.

In Real World terms, these are treated differently because you don't want to imply that you'd actually kill the author. When the author writes a self-insert that's meant to be them, rather than an idealized Sue version of them, you don't want to go and talk about putting arrows through their eyes. It's not polite.

Hey! I kinda use this kinda thing as a detail. by Aster Corbett on 2010-07-27 12:52:00 UTC Reply

As to be someday published, the fandom multiverse version of Aster Corbett is actually a self-insertion... of myself. I used to self-insert a lot (and I still do sometimes, but less annoyingly, rarely publicly, and for the rule of funny ONLY) but none of the stories were EVER finished, and Aster's character never even really gone into Mary Sue territory beyond the ability to pull limited mundane objects out of seeming-hammerspace because I never mentioned her having a bag.

She eventually fights her way back to her story's origin point (her house) only to find it's just a cheap copy and no one is, nor has ever been, nor ever will be, home. Understandably, she hates the 'real person' who wrote her (and forgot to write her!) and runs around killing Self Inserts and Mary Sues hating that she was almost one of those-- in all the wrong ways, of course, until she's picked up by an Intelligence agent or something.

OF COURSE NONE OF THIS IS EVER MENTIONED IN-DEPTH IN THE ACTUAL STORY I AM WRITING, AS THE NARRATIVE IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN MY OC'S BACKSTORY. AHAHAHA.

Reminds me of the Mystery Assassin... by Eclectus on 2010-07-27 23:54:00 UTC Reply

...from the Multiverse Monitor.

I would say less Psycho. by Aster Corbett on 2010-07-28 11:42:00 UTC Reply

Less crazy circumstance surrounds Aster. She has no prior involvement with the PPC, and isn't hostile to PPC agents. Though she does resist joining or being picked up by the PPC (for now) she is friends with an intelligence agent, who finds her an all right friend but very trying.

Aster is kind of juvanile-- she was first written when I was 14, and consecutively re-written many times since then but none of her stories have ever actually reached completion. This makes her kind of an annoying Rebel Without a Cause with her own vendettas against Mary Sues and thinks that rules and stuff only will get in her way.

While the Mystery Assassin comes out of nowhere, you can see Aster coming from a mile away. Usually she stays out of high-profile stories, though-- so she doesn't make much contact. Which is why she was first found by an intelligence agent snooping for targets.

The Mystery Assassin is a threat. Aster is just a very touchy hysteric.

AND NONE OF THIS REALLY IS PLAYED UP IN WHAT I AM WRITING BECAUSE ASTER AND HER WOES ARE NOT THE POINT OF IT. AHAHAH WOW. I FAIL AT CONSERVATION OF DETAIL.

Could be cool, actually by Calista on 2010-07-28 16:36:00 UTC Reply

I know a lot of the time, when people write angsty/rebellious teenage characters, they go over the top and do it wrong. But that's not because the character's angsty... it's because the story's written as though said character's angst was REALLY the end of the world, instead of normal teenage woes that suck right now, but aren't such a huge deal in the grand scheme of things.

I think if you made sure to actually write Aster as the somewhat immature character you describe her as, there's not going to be an issue with the rebel-without-a-cause thing. Lots of teenagers are like that. You just have to make sure you don't demand the reader think she is always right and justified in her rebellion.

A lot of PPC agents are a lot more mature than their ages would suggest. We've got fourteen-year-olds going on deadly missions that could easily kill them or drive them nuts; and they handle it pretty well, on the whole--very much like mature adults who are coping in relatively non-damaging ways with something that'd make anybody go at least a little insane. (Justified somewhat because PPC agents are more mature to begin with--literature nerds often are--and because they may've spent ten years at the physical age of fourteen.) It'd be interesting to see an agent who actually is immature.

But YMMV. You could just as easily grow her up a bit instead. :)

I'm glad by Aster Corbett on 2010-07-29 14:33:00 UTC Reply

I'm glad someone thinks this might be a cool idea. One of the things that bothers me about Self-insert stories (including mine!) is that the insert always just goes along with the plot of the canon, changing it or not, but ALWAYS following it. No enormous freak-out like you'd expect from a normal person. They're just too geeked-up to act like someone REALLY torn away from their home, their friends, their dog, the college money that's been all for nothing, and their entire future on Earth. Self Inserts really DO have a lot to angst about-- but never what they DO angst about!

Sure, they always wibble on and on about getting home and stuff, but the new world always proves to subdue that with its Awesome Factor until the insert is just another character, and sometimes, even a Suvian if things get bad. Never have I ever seen a transdimensional displacement fic where the character breaks off and goes on their own, and does REALLY all they can to get home, rather than 'oh, if I follow the plot then eventually I'll get back or something maybe.'

Aster started out a sincere character that's become a black humor parody of herself-- when she's not played horrifyingly straight. Most Self Inserts aren't.

If I ever narrate her *first* adventures, in which these concepts are important, this stuff will come up. But in the story I'm doing, she's past the worst of the immaturity but still kind of a fanatical idiot who hates herself and believes that by walking into a story set in supposed-12th century Jerusalem with a sawed-off-shotgun stuffed up her pants and shooting every Suvian in sight is the correct course of action. Which it's not.

And I don't have time to mention any of this in what is essensially an EXTREMELY long mega-mission, in the ABSOLUTE WORST case scenario of complete and total technology failure. As much as I like my original character/fictional clone of me, the story comes first.

Fortunately, we know the story you've been hoping to read. by Neshomeh on 2010-07-30 00:10:00 UTC Reply

Don't Panic!, a Legendary Goodfic by former PPCer Boz4PM. Enjoy. {= )

~Neshomeh

No and yes. by Neshomeh on 2010-07-26 17:35:00 UTC Reply

No, not all Sues are killed. Yes, there are ex-Sue agents.

To elaborate, the first thing to realize is that not every Suefic is the target of a mission. We don't go after the mediocre ones; only the ones that really look to be damaging things, either not knowing or, more often, not caring that they're doing anything wrong. So, the moderately-well-written yet uninteresting Sues go free. To put it another way, any badfic, Sue or otherwise, has to be bad enough to make an entertaining mission. If she's got decent SPaG and has a semi-plausible reason for getting into Legolas' pants, there's no point in PPCing her, because there wouldn't be much for the agents to snark about and, moreover, nothing much to put on the charge list. This is why we have charge lists, in fact. A kill has to be justified by canon-warping.

Second, there have been occasions of one of two things happening on a mission. One, in one of Architeuthis' Intelligence reports, the Sue under observation actually began to naturalize as the story went on. In other words, she became less of a Sue on her own, and didn't require intervention. (I'd like to see this happen more, if anyone can find stories like that.) Two, as mentioned, sometimes a borderline Sue is recruited. This doesn't usually happen in "active" missions, though--usually it's a backstory, and the Sue in question is one that a PPCer wrote themselves in their younger years. I'm sure people can give you plenty of examples, but the one coming to my mind right now is Agent Diocletian.

I think the ACMSES disposes of their (invented for the purpose) Sues by dropping them into confinement somewhere. The problem I see with that, though, is how can you possibly contain them all in any kind of humane way? In any case, most of us don't see Sues as humans, or elves, or whatever they're claiming to be. Most often they're seen as a disease--and yes, it is stated that the Sue needs to be killed for the canon to heal, just like a virus. That's why everything snaps back into place after the kill in TOS.

~Neshomeh

Ah. by Lleu on 2010-07-26 18:08:00 UTC Reply

Aha. Short response to a long post: that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for clarifying.

Regards,
Lleu
Reformed Sues by Calista on 2010-07-26 18:04:00 UTC Reply

Search the wiki under "reformed Sues". There are several Mary Sues working for the PPC, all of which had to gain a personality and lose a lot of their speshulness before they could be recruited.

And no, Sues aren't people--they aren't written well enough to be people in any sense of the word. In some cases, they don't even have enough of a survival instinct to resist assassination, and even a cockroach can do that. (DMSE&R have also looked through the Sue genome, which is extremely short--much less complex than any known living organism's genome--and consists mostly of urple prose and imperatives to destroy canon.)

When they recruit a Sue, the PPC isn't so much rescuing a person as they are rescuing something that could have been a person if it had been written properly. That's where we come in. Recruited badfic characters, whether they're near-completely undescribed bits or just horribly-written Sues, need a good writer to become "real". They have to have a purpose, a personality, direction.

It's like the difference between a tumor and a living being. Sure, the tumor's alive; but let it grow any further, and it'll start causing a huge amount of damage. (Some Sues, including Canon Sues and many of the weaker ones we don't go after, are like benign tumors... they don't spread, and can be left alone with a watch-and-see approach.)

Could we recruit every Sue we meet? Yes. But it would be very dangerous. Have even one relapse, and she'll exert influence on her partner; before you know it we'll have two Sues, then four, then eight... Keep the numbers of recruited Sues low, and any relapses can be caught and dealt with before they start spreading.

I think maybe a lot of the reticence about assassinations isn't because Sues "could be people"; it's simply because they look like people. Most PPC agents are human or human-like in their thinking, and that means visual and auditory input channels are huge. Sues mimic actual people very well, at first glance. If they didn't look like human beings (or whatever species they say they're from), I seriously doubt anybody would have qualms about it.

So ask yourself: If that Sue were a computer program or a blob of protoplasm instead of an urple-haired teenage girl, would I still be worried about assassination? Most Sues never even reach the sophistication of the average chatbot or paramecium...

Aha. by Lleu on 2010-07-26 18:13:00 UTC Reply

Further short response to a further longish post: that's a useful way of looking at it; I'll keep that in mind.

Thanks,
Lleu Llaw Gyffes