On the subject of technical errors.

Subject: On the subject of technical errors.
Author: Araeph
Posted on: 2010-07-25 22:05:00 UTC

From July's earlier post:

And for you who are crying about her spelling and grammar? Go reread TOS. Then try and tell me that Jay and Acacia were perfect writers. With a straight face.

Well, I can’t do that, but a comparison of the two stories will make the other posters’ meaning abundantly clear.

The first 407 words from TOS.

"It's happened again." Jay leaned back from her console, indicating a flashing red light. "Someone's mucking with the plot continuum."

Acacia sighed. "Exactly what is so wrong with the canon that everyone wants to break it?" she demanded rhetorically. "Which world?"

"Lord of the Rings." Jay winced. "The massacre of Tolkien continues. We have...a Mary Sue."

Acacia sighed. "Usually the case. What species is she this time, and what's she done to break it?"

"Human. Magically transported from earth, [Earth] along with her band. Of COURSE she's joining the Fellowship...and you'll love this. She's stringing Boromir along while enjoying herself with Legolas." Jay looked sideways at her partner, hoping that this news wouldn't be too disturbing.

Acacia glared. "Let me see this," she insisted, pushing Jay out of her seat without waiting for an answer. She started pressing buttons seemingly at random, glared at the screen as if hoping to burn the words off it by sheer force of stare, then stood up. "Well, let's go [insert comma] then!"

Jay tapped something on the console, causing an odd hum. A rather unimpressive flicker appeared in the air, taking on the appearance of an oblong doorway. "Come on, Acy," she said, using her friend's dreaded nickname. "Let's hunt some Sue."

Acacia muttered something that sounded like "Don't CALL me that," but stepped through the doorway very quickly. Jay followed suit.

As Jay stepped through the portal, she felt her chosen guise fall into place around her...she made a rather impressive Uruk-hai, if she did say so herself. She took the formidable black bow from her shoulder, testing the string, and counted the arrows in her quiver. Then she took her Character Analysis Device and set it. "I'm all ready, Acacia--you?"

Acacia looked around. It was always a bit disorienting, being in a world made of someone else's words, particularly when the canon was so stretched by the presence of [insert comma] not only a Mary Sue [insert comma] but--as a glance at her own Canon Analysis Device showed--canonical characters acting out of character. She took an arrow from her own quiver and first smelled, then gingerly tasted the point. The smell and bitter taste confirmed that it was in fact poisoned, and she put it back in the quiver, satisfied. "All ready."

The pair had arrived just outside of Rivendell--its gentle glow lit the early morning. Acacia led the way, Jay following, as they crossed into the beautiful city.

The first 402 words from SSU.

A/N: This is the third installment of my series "the [capitalization error] death [capitalization error] of Mary Sue." This installment was written together by myself and Apollo Night. [“Apollo Night and I wrote this installment together.”] This is our first joined project [joint project] and we hope you like it. I own Alex and Raven, [omit comma, insert semicolon] Apollo owns Alice and Dexter [insert period]

Alice was excited, [omit comma, insert period, adjust capitalization] in fact [insert comma] she was down right [downright] livid. After she was made to take 3 [numbers smaller than 10 should be written out] weeks off work due to a work [insert hyphen] related incident [insert comma] Mac was allowing her to get back into the field of Sue hunting. Though she was no longer partners with the human train that was Sandy, she was still psyched to be doing something besides sitting in the therapist offices [therapist’s office] having him ask [insert comma]"now [insert comma, adjust capitalization] how does that make you feel?" four thousand times.

She was waiting patiently in a room to meet her new partners. Dexter the tiger was currently sleeping soundly at her feet. [insert paragraph break] Alice worked for an organization called the Sue Slayers United. They trained people to hunt and kill Mary Sues from different fandom's. [omit apostrophe] The SSU was technically in its own "world" [insert comma] not in any specific canon, which meant there was no limit to what you would see around her. People who have [had] been working here [there] long enough no longer gave a second glance at the walking trees or screams that can [came] from the lower parts of the building any more. [anymore].

Just then [insert comma] Alice saw two women walk in, [omit period, insert comma, adjust capitalization] not missing a beat [insert comma] she jumped to her feet. Though it did little to improve her height, Alice stood at a whole 5'2" ( counting [delete space after parenthesis] the top of her spiky black hair) [insert period, adjust capitalization] she was so thin that she looked much like a nine year old [nine-year-old] boy. She looked very pixy [insert hyphen] like in general and didn't look like she would make much of a hunter to people who didn't know her that well. Though her skin was white, her eyes where [were] shaped like she had some Asian blood in her family somewhere.

____

Are lots of these errors minor? Yes. But there are still lots of errors, and more than a few major ones. In addition, and what I found more perturbing, is the fact that SSU made a major canon mistake further on. PotC takes place in the 1800s? Really?

Hell, go and tell me any of our stuff is perfect with wonderful spelling and grammar when it's put up without a beta going over it. You can manage that, right? Oh, wait, no.

Not having a beta is no excuse for this many errors. First, I've been without a beta since 2004. My writing does not look like this. Second, as mentioned before, there is more than one writer here, so they can check each other's work--and if both of them combined can't catch this many mistakes, yet they still mock other people's stories, well...

...I think that may be the point people are trying to make with the nitpicking. Maybe it came off the wrong way, but I don't think it's about putting people down. It's about making sure the Sue mockers are holding themselves to a higher standard than the badfic they mock. Otherwise, what's the point? And yes, I think it is an automatic point against them...as long as they are going after Suefic for being poorly written.

I have to agree, however, that the SSU did not steal anything from us. I also think the series has a lot of potential. I simply don't think that we're being more unfair than usual on the subject of language.

*deposits her two cents*

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It's a bird! It's a plane! It's a...Sue slaying society? by Araeph on 2010-07-24 11:25:00 UTC Reply

Ironically, just after Trojie's post about how we're more than a Sue slaying society, I come bearing a link! It is a link with some startling similarities to the PPC. The major differences are: they only kill Sues, and they bring realistic animal companions along to fight the Cute Animal friends we all know and ~~loathe~~ love. ("There was nothing quite like being gored form behind by a sparkly pink unicorn, and Alex had the scars to prove it.")

Link.

Quotes:

- "Alice worked for an organization called the Sue Slayers United. They trained people to hunt and kill Mary Sues from different fandom's. The SSU was technically in its own 'world' not in any specific canon, which meant there was no limit to what you would see around her. People who have been working here long enough no longer gave a second glance at the walking trees or screams that can from the lower parts of the building any more."

- "She had dark bushy hair and a square jaw, and as Alex had discovered, a strong coffee addiction. She was dressed more casually than Alex is a purple buttoned-up shirt with the sleeves rolled back and plain black pants and sneakers."

- "Raven steered Alice toward the armoury. It was its own wing at the SSU headquarters, full of many weapons. She found her way towards the Pirate section.
'Take your pick,' Raven told her. 'Usually they're pretty good about weapons, as long as the weapon doesn't defy the laws of the universe you're allowed to have it.'"

- "'It's not too important seeing as how we're just supposed to pop in and out. We're not even supposed to talk to the Cannon characters if we can avoid it.'"

-"'It's a neuralizor,' he told her after she stared at it dumbly for a few seconds.
'A what?' she replied feeling like a dumbass.
'Those mind-wipe things from Men in Black?'"

-"'You are charged with the following!' Alex announced cheerfully. "Talking in chat speak, misspelling said chat speak (oh girl, that is just sad), comparing your hair to a muddy waterfall, contradicting yourself by using the world laughter and sorrow in the same breathe to describe your voice, dressing like a whore without getting ridiculed by canon characters…'
'And for just being really f***ing annoying,' Alice added as she walked up behind Alex."

-"'I only just remembered these; we haven't really needed them so far, have we? How do we read these things anyway? I was told it was easy but it's hard to make sense of them.'
'Just point and click love, then it'll beep a few times and give us a reading on if it's a Sue, a canon character, or a healthy OC.'"
____

Sounds familiar, no?

I reviewed the fic, asking if the author knew about the PPC. She said she did, but she "didn't steal the idea on purpose," and "If there's anything too similar that you want me to change let me know." I can believe that she didn't steal the idea...after all, it seems to me that anyone spending a lot of time in fandom would want to kill Sues! There are a lot of other similarities, though, as you can see from the quotes above. She may very well have, er, lovingly borrowed from us. Still, I'm inclined to leave the Sue Slayers United alone to do its noble work. What do you think?

~Araeph

Changes by CreativeSprite on 2010-12-21 03:18:00 UTC Reply

I'm actually in the middle of editing the fics (I started when I was made aware of the similarities between the SSU and the PPC.) If there's anything people want to me to change I would appreciate the input. I’ve seen some good ideas here (like using visors that spot sues instead of the scanners) but I won’t use the ideas without permission from the people who created them. I just want to say that I did NOT steal the neutralizers from you guys, it was from Men in Black and I know it’s not original and its one of things I plan to change. I realise the story is weird and inconsistent, again, something I’m going to go back and change. If anyone gives me ideas I will happily credit them back to the people who made them. Despite the impression I may have given, I don’t like taking credit for stuff that’s not mine.

Also, I just want to say that I got a number of private messages from people who wanted to write their own sue slayer stories after reading about the SSU, so I think you can expect a bit of a boom of stories in this nature. I know it can all be traced back to you guys, the pioneers of sue slayers. Like how the Wolf Man was wonderful and original and is pretty much the parent movie of all werewolf movies since. I think you should be proud of yourselves for creating a new genre and wanted to let you know that I’m not the only one writing about sue slayers (apart from you guys) and I have read a fic about ANOTHER sue slaying organisation in the Maximum Ride section. The PPC and the SSU are not the only ones.

As for charging the sues with their crimes – this was something that was pointed out to me as a similarity. Fair enough. I would like to point out that this wasn’t standard procedure for the SSU, Alex and Alice did it once or twice because they thought it was funny. This is something that I can stop doing if you like. If people want something changed I would appreciate it if you tell me, really.

jus ask by Apollo Night on 2010-12-21 05:31:00 UTC Reply

I'm the co-writer for SSU and if anyone has any questions I'll be happy to answer them. Really, we never meant to cause such a fuss.

Did you ask the person to merge? by Aeidhryn on 2010-07-26 16:17:00 UTC Reply

Or affiliate? Or just become "hey-look-let's-go-swap-stories" type friends? Or- ?
Personally, I don't really mind. Although some people could point out it is really, really similar to PPC.

No, but from her reply, I think she wants stick with SSU. by Araeph on 2010-07-28 12:36:00 UTC Reply

I don't really mind, either. But I will ask her to affiliate, in exchange for her putting up the disclaimer that some people suggested.

A message from CreativeSprite, by Aeidhryn on 2010-08-01 16:26:00 UTC Reply

re-posted with permission:

"I did hear about the PPC before writing this, but I didn't intentionally stealthe idea. This fic started because I wanted to read a fanfiction where Mary sues died a horrible death but I couldn't find any, so I decided to write one
myself. Originally it was a one-shot, about a woman who murders a Mary-sue by dropping her into Mount Doom, but it became so popolur I decided to expand it and created Sue Slayers United."

Except for the typo, I pretty much believe her.

So, wait... by Neshomeh on 2010-08-02 03:05:00 UTC Reply

She had heard about us, but couldn't find any stories in which the Sues die horrible deaths--on the scale of being dropped into Mount Doom, say? That... strikes me as a little inconsistent. She can't have been looking very hard. O.o

~Neshomeh, confused (but glad the disclaimer will be there).

Yeah, oh well. by Aeidhryn on 2010-08-05 22:22:00 UTC Reply

Hey, feeding to the Balrog is just as good.

REPLY from the author! by Araeph on 2010-08-01 18:13:00 UTC Reply

I just asked her to put a disclaimer up, and in return offered to link her story on the List of Everything PPC. She says it sounds perfectly reasonable.

Hooray!

Alliance! SCORE! *happy dance* (nm) by Aeidhryn on 2010-08-01 18:30:00 UTC Reply

Man, lighten up. All of you. by JulyFlame on 2010-07-25 06:33:00 UTC Reply

You guys are being too harsh. There's only so many ways you can do the basic "We fight and kill Mary Sues, etc" dealie.

In other words, there's no need to reinvent the wheel, or get on other people's cases for 'similar' ideas. There are dozens and dozens of badfic fighting societies out there and only so many possible variations, of course there's going to be similarities, especially if she did read PPC stuff. There are only so many ways you can kill a Sue, so many way you can make canon characters forget (pills similar to Torchwood's retcon, MiB neuralyzers, a careful bit of brain trauma, or just kill that fic's version), only so many ways you can watch the action, and so forth.

There's this 'Lemon Fighters' fic out there that has agents, crappy budgeting, departments, and sarcasm and adversarial friendliness between two partners who alternate between picking up the slack for each other, and a fondness for wordplay. It's from early 2001.

Or how about those ACMSES people? They have a Canon Cannon just like we do. Except it does things different. And they have Plothole Generator, which hm. Seem to be Remote Activators under a different name, basically.

Or that group in the Artemis Fowl fandom, which is a bunch of teenaged girls fighting to protect canon.

Oh. My. Gosh.

I think CreativeSprite has made enough changes and has made what she's doing enough of her own thing that us getting on her case about it is just showing a bunch of people who are overly sensitive to other people using the same equipment in a different playground.

After all, we don't give every single PPC agent an animal counterpart to help with CAFs. Or envelopes saying what roles they're supposed to pretend to be and take up while they're in the fic. We don't do multiple chapter fics for missions. There's a continuing storyline, as compared to our favorite way of doing things with a formula. You're all being silly by focusing only on the similarities; when you bring the differences in it's a whole 'nother ballgame.

So it's that, or, y'know, you lot are feeling threatened by it for some reason. Which is really silly, given her reply to Araeph. She's clearly aware of the similarities, but she wouldn't offer to change things if she didn't care; there's respect, which means she doesn't want to offend us.

And for you who are crying about her spelling and grammar? Go reread TOS. Then try and tell me that Jay and Acacia were perfect writers. With a straight face. Hell, go and tell me any of our stuff is perfect with wonderful spelling and grammar when it's put up without a beta going over it. You can manage that, right? Oh, wait, no.

Suck it up. We're not the only ones doing this, it's not just our idea, you're all getting whiny and defensive over something for no good reason.

My fic by CreativeSprite on 2010-12-21 02:32:00 UTC Reply

Hey there, Creativesprite here

I just want to say that I really appreciate you sticking up for me, I appreciate it more than I can say.

And to haters I would like to say this

If someone has a problem with me, I would prefer that they go onto fanfiction.net and say to my face so to speak, if there's one thing I hate its people saying stuff about me behind my back. And to the people who did message me? Thanks for your honesty, I appreciate it.
Hang on, July. by Sedri on 2010-07-26 01:37:00 UTC Reply

First off, I think you're saying the same thing I did but from a different angle, or to a different degree; yes, there are only so many ways to mock badfic, but there are several detailed elements too specific to the PPC to all appear in someone else's imagination by coincidence. I think we're picking details here - neuralysers, for instance.

But moreso, I agree with Neshomeh that if it IS a deliberate ripoff, then we have every right to be upset. If not, then - as you say - we have no right at all. Since we don't know for certain one way or another, everyone's sort of in limbo about it, and that can make us touchy. That's only human. I point out that we are saying these things here, on our board, not to her face. To do so without absolute proof would inexcusable.

So I'll lighten up, promise, but please calm down, will you? Maybe I'm reading your tone wrong from between the lines (wouldn't be the first time), but it sounds like you're flying off the handle. Nothing's been decided.
Poorly placed note by JulyFlame on 2010-07-25 23:42:00 UTC Reply

A few people have pointed this out to me, so I want to make this clear:

I wrote this with no intention or desire to alienize or devalue opinions, nor insult anyone. I mean what I wrote in as forthright a manner as possible, because I value people being forthright with their opinions to me. I was hoping and expecting that I'd get more replies from others than just Neshomeh and Araeph, but as Gen pointed out, I probably scared everyone away.

So again, I meant no one ill will.
Hold on just a second. by Neshomeh on 2010-07-25 19:29:00 UTC Reply

You have points. Granted. I'm not really contesting them. However, I have issues.

Are you actually accusing us of having an investment in the PPC like it's a bad thing? I, for one, have been here for quite a long time, spent quite a lot of my time and energy in this community, and rather feel that it's worth something. If we are, in fact, being ripped off, I happen to think it's an insult to everyone who has spent their own time and energy as part of the PPC, and if that's the case then we have every right to be upset about it. Plagiarism, as you say, is a very serious matter.

I'm not saying that is the case. You'll note that I have yet to say anything on the subject myself. I have not actually looked at the SSU yet. This is purely in the what-if scenario.

Moving on, on the subject of creativity: I don't know about everyone else, but I value originality. It's part of the problem I have with a lot of badfic, not to mention the reason I can't stand most fantasy (e.g. Eragon)--it's all derivative, and that's lazy. If you want to slay Sues but don't want to be us, then don't be us. Think of your own methods, your own gadgets. See WikiMaster's post--he lists just a few possibilities for doing it differently. Reinventing the wheel? No--the basic concept is still the same. At least giving it a different coat of paint would be nice, though.

At some point you mentioned different chapter structure and the animal companions. That's good, but more or less the same as the difference between a movie and a TV series. Different format does not equal different concept behind it. As for the animals, I know plenty of us have wished there was a precedent for taking minis and such on missions. It's not such a big step away from us when you consider that.

On the other hand, if you DO want to be us, there's a really easy way to do that: getting Permission. The reason we have Permission is precisely so that just anybody can't run off with Jay and Acacia's concept and do what they like with it. (Just look what we get when that happens.) Again, I can't accuse the SSU of doing that without having read their work, but based on Araeph's post, the possibility exists. If that is the case, we have every right to ask them to either stop it or legitimize themselves. Jay and Acacia left the PPC to us, the PPC Boarders, on the understanding that we have the Permission handed down by them through the Permission-Givers. They didn't give the whole Internet a free pass to borrow from them with impunity, and doing so would be hugely disrespectful and deserve censure. See above: plagiarism is bad.

Now, the spelling and grammar concerns. Are you actually saying we shouldn't expect good SPaG from organizations that mock badfic--like us? You're saying we should just waive our standards now because back at the dawn of time Jay and Acacia didn't have a beta? I'm sorry, but I can't agree with that. My standards for a finished, posted work apply to everyone, every time. That's why I've volunteered my time to remove those errors from TOS. That's why I betaed for two OFUs. That's why I still occasionally beta and, in fact, want to be an editor. I know no one is perfect. Nobody expects perfect. However, we DO expect an effort these days, and I for one think that's a good thing.

So, in a nutshell, while I agree that we shouldn't be coming down on these people harshly, especially since they seem willing to get along, I also don't think there's any call to come down on us so harshly for voicing what may be legitimate concerns. I didn't see anyone starting a pogrom here--we were just talking about things that may be real issues. We weren't getting on their case. Nothing has been decided yet; nothing has been done yet. It was a discussion in which people shared their opinions, nothing more. You could have shared yours without insulting the rest of us for ours. Please think about that.

~Neshomeh

Oh? by JulyFlame on 2010-07-25 21:06:00 UTC Reply

No, I think it's a bad thing when a percieved investment in the PPC is being used as an excuse to rip into people unnecessarily. Permission and involvement with the PPC community was, last I checked, supposed to be mainly for amusement, friendship, camadery, all of that, along with the writing of spin off and not an excuse to rip into anyone if they don't meet our perceived standards as a whole. Calling anyone's work a knock off or declaring they stole it is downright insulting when it's not necessary.

Additionally, there's a difference between being aware and mentioning that someone has less-than-average SPaG and pointing out every error seen, somewhere where they're never going to see it. I also didn't say anything about the fact that we should waive or ignore or lessen our own percieved standards. But being persnicketity over SPaG to put someone down is quite frankly, pretentious. Acting like it is an automatic point against them is unfair. Suggesting they should get a beta is diplomatic. Pointing it out to the person making the errors is always always better.

But no one has done that. by Neshomeh on 2010-07-25 22:09:00 UTC Reply

No one is ripping into them. People have said "I see this thing I don't like." That's not the same as "Oh my god, this is terrible, they should be stricken from the Intarwebz," which I would consider ripping into them--especially if done to their face, which is not happening. People are entitled to their opinions, even negative ones.

No one has systematically gone through and criticized every SPaG error, either. They have said, again, "I see these problems and I don't like them." Sedri specifically said a good beta would have helped. Having heard Barid's account of the quality of the first chapter, I'm inclined to agree that they ought to have gone over it more carefully before posting. And, let's face it, we DO judge people based on SPaG. I don't see why it should be okay to charge a badfic for it and yet not okay to comment on the lack of it, in however much detail, in something that aspires to be better than badfic. I don't think that makes us pretentious, just consistent. And I'm pretty sure everyone would agree to pointing out the problems to the author now that we've discussed it.

Also, why do you describe the investment in the PPC and our standards as "perceived"? I don't understand that. To me, these things exist. We act on them every time we make a post or get Permission or ask for a beta.

Now, the concern I actually have is whether or not everyone has read the stories before commenting. If they have formed their opinions without all the facts, that's problematic. However, I can't know whether or not that's the case, because I can't read their minds. Therefore, for the sake of argument, I'm assuming here that they did look at the stories and formed their opinions in good faith. (If that's not the case, that's a whole different can of worms.)

~Neshomeh

You're taking this too far a scale. by JulyFlame on 2010-07-25 22:38:00 UTC Reply

Had you replied beforehand to the entire post, you wouldn't've have been included in that 'perceived investment' comment, and I probably would've not said it at all.

The harshest and most defending of the PPC comments came from people who have little action behind their words, as it was. Most of the constructive stuff came from people who have actually written spin offs, helped newbies, answered questions, all that and a carful of jam.

All talk and no action isn't impressive, and if they want to prove how much a part of the PPC community they are, they can do it in other ways than being catty at some random not-us group.

Okay, I see that. by Neshomeh on 2010-07-25 23:32:00 UTC Reply

I mean, I realize this isn't personal, or involving the entire Board. For my part, I'm identifying with the people who replied to the initial post with distaste, because I kind of agree with them. I just hadn't gotten to the point of crystallizing my own thoughts into a post yet.

What I'm mainly taking exception to is the aforementioned group being berated for things that haven't had any effect yet. If one of us had actually gone over there and accused them of stealing, to their face, with no evidence, yes, that would be wrong. Discussing it on our own forum before taking any action should be okay, though.

I also don't think it's fair to bring experience/action into the argument. The way to gain experience is to participate, and assuming that by action you mean "stuff done with the PPC," making posts qualifies. You can't accuse someone of not having posted enough for their posts to count, whether you like what they've said or not. It's just plain not fair. Just ask any of the habitual lurkers who pop up to say things sometimes. Again, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

And, incidentally, if you only had a problem with one or two people, you should have addressed them directly, not lambasted the whole thread. It might have prevented some confusion on my part, at least.

~Neshomeh

Yes, but, spirited debates are fun. (nm) by JulyFlame on 2010-07-25 23:43:00 UTC Reply

On the subject of technical errors. by Araeph on 2010-07-25 22:05:00 UTC Reply

From July's earlier post:

And for you who are crying about her spelling and grammar? Go reread TOS. Then try and tell me that Jay and Acacia were perfect writers. With a straight face.

Well, I can’t do that, but a comparison of the two stories will make the other posters’ meaning abundantly clear.

The first 407 words from TOS.

"It's happened again." Jay leaned back from her console, indicating a flashing red light. "Someone's mucking with the plot continuum."

Acacia sighed. "Exactly what is so wrong with the canon that everyone wants to break it?" she demanded rhetorically. "Which world?"

"Lord of the Rings." Jay winced. "The massacre of Tolkien continues. We have...a Mary Sue."

Acacia sighed. "Usually the case. What species is she this time, and what's she done to break it?"

"Human. Magically transported from earth, [Earth] along with her band. Of COURSE she's joining the Fellowship...and you'll love this. She's stringing Boromir along while enjoying herself with Legolas." Jay looked sideways at her partner, hoping that this news wouldn't be too disturbing.

Acacia glared. "Let me see this," she insisted, pushing Jay out of her seat without waiting for an answer. She started pressing buttons seemingly at random, glared at the screen as if hoping to burn the words off it by sheer force of stare, then stood up. "Well, let's go [insert comma] then!"

Jay tapped something on the console, causing an odd hum. A rather unimpressive flicker appeared in the air, taking on the appearance of an oblong doorway. "Come on, Acy," she said, using her friend's dreaded nickname. "Let's hunt some Sue."

Acacia muttered something that sounded like "Don't CALL me that," but stepped through the doorway very quickly. Jay followed suit.

As Jay stepped through the portal, she felt her chosen guise fall into place around her...she made a rather impressive Uruk-hai, if she did say so herself. She took the formidable black bow from her shoulder, testing the string, and counted the arrows in her quiver. Then she took her Character Analysis Device and set it. "I'm all ready, Acacia--you?"

Acacia looked around. It was always a bit disorienting, being in a world made of someone else's words, particularly when the canon was so stretched by the presence of [insert comma] not only a Mary Sue [insert comma] but--as a glance at her own Canon Analysis Device showed--canonical characters acting out of character. She took an arrow from her own quiver and first smelled, then gingerly tasted the point. The smell and bitter taste confirmed that it was in fact poisoned, and she put it back in the quiver, satisfied. "All ready."

The pair had arrived just outside of Rivendell--its gentle glow lit the early morning. Acacia led the way, Jay following, as they crossed into the beautiful city.

The first 402 words from SSU.

A/N: This is the third installment of my series "the [capitalization error] death [capitalization error] of Mary Sue." This installment was written together by myself and Apollo Night. [“Apollo Night and I wrote this installment together.”] This is our first joined project [joint project] and we hope you like it. I own Alex and Raven, [omit comma, insert semicolon] Apollo owns Alice and Dexter [insert period]

Alice was excited, [omit comma, insert period, adjust capitalization] in fact [insert comma] she was down right [downright] livid. After she was made to take 3 [numbers smaller than 10 should be written out] weeks off work due to a work [insert hyphen] related incident [insert comma] Mac was allowing her to get back into the field of Sue hunting. Though she was no longer partners with the human train that was Sandy, she was still psyched to be doing something besides sitting in the therapist offices [therapist’s office] having him ask [insert comma]"now [insert comma, adjust capitalization] how does that make you feel?" four thousand times.

She was waiting patiently in a room to meet her new partners. Dexter the tiger was currently sleeping soundly at her feet. [insert paragraph break] Alice worked for an organization called the Sue Slayers United. They trained people to hunt and kill Mary Sues from different fandom's. [omit apostrophe] The SSU was technically in its own "world" [insert comma] not in any specific canon, which meant there was no limit to what you would see around her. People who have [had] been working here [there] long enough no longer gave a second glance at the walking trees or screams that can [came] from the lower parts of the building any more. [anymore].

Just then [insert comma] Alice saw two women walk in, [omit period, insert comma, adjust capitalization] not missing a beat [insert comma] she jumped to her feet. Though it did little to improve her height, Alice stood at a whole 5'2" ( counting [delete space after parenthesis] the top of her spiky black hair) [insert period, adjust capitalization] she was so thin that she looked much like a nine year old [nine-year-old] boy. She looked very pixy [insert hyphen] like in general and didn't look like she would make much of a hunter to people who didn't know her that well. Though her skin was white, her eyes where [were] shaped like she had some Asian blood in her family somewhere.

____

Are lots of these errors minor? Yes. But there are still lots of errors, and more than a few major ones. In addition, and what I found more perturbing, is the fact that SSU made a major canon mistake further on. PotC takes place in the 1800s? Really?

Hell, go and tell me any of our stuff is perfect with wonderful spelling and grammar when it's put up without a beta going over it. You can manage that, right? Oh, wait, no.

Not having a beta is no excuse for this many errors. First, I've been without a beta since 2004. My writing does not look like this. Second, as mentioned before, there is more than one writer here, so they can check each other's work--and if both of them combined can't catch this many mistakes, yet they still mock other people's stories, well...

...I think that may be the point people are trying to make with the nitpicking. Maybe it came off the wrong way, but I don't think it's about putting people down. It's about making sure the Sue mockers are holding themselves to a higher standard than the badfic they mock. Otherwise, what's the point? And yes, I think it is an automatic point against them...as long as they are going after Suefic for being poorly written.

I have to agree, however, that the SSU did not steal anything from us. I also think the series has a lot of potential. I simply don't think that we're being more unfair than usual on the subject of language.

*deposits her two cents*

Re: On the subject of technical errors. by Aeidhryn on 2010-07-27 22:26:00 UTC Reply

That was more than two cents... but I half-agree; Jay and Acacia do have typos, just not that many. And I bet if they were still active and noticed the typos, they'd fix 'em. Anyhoo... are those thingummies CADs? I repeat what I said earlier- has anyone tried to contact the writer?

Eh... by OpinionedAngel on 2010-07-25 17:45:00 UTC Reply

If it's more people killing Suefics, it doesn't bother me that much.
So much win. by Simon on 2010-07-25 12:03:00 UTC Reply

If you'll excuse the *chan-speak.
I agree with you by IndeMaat on 2010-07-25 09:09:00 UTC Reply

on the part where it is very much possible to come up with the same idea indepentely. First person that said (paraphrasing here): she's using a neuralyzer; she should credit us. Made me wonder whether that person actually knew where neuralyzers were coming from.

Don't agree with you that we can't comment on technical errors in the fic/quotes. Because a) there is never an excuse not to use a beta-reader, and b) this particular fic (the one Areaph provided the link to) was written by two people.

(Kind of annoyed that I seem to get lumped in with "all of you" when I have not made any comments on the similarities between PPC and SSU, mainly because I dind't think it was something worth of getting upset or protective about.)

beta by Miah on 2010-07-25 16:28:00 UTC Reply

I agree that betas are very important, doubly so when you are mocking bad writing in others--if only to avoid being mocked yourself. This writer seems open to concrit, and there are a lot of people here that are very, very good with spelling and grammar, maybe someone could offer assistance?

(Not me, my natural grammar abilities amount to different but equally bad mistakes--which is why I love everyone here that is willing and able to beta.)

I still think this story is similar enough to the PPC to remind people of the PPC, but it also has potential. I didn't mean to make it sound like I thought it didn't. Some of the snark in it seemed top-notch.
There's a difference. by JulyFlame on 2010-07-25 09:33:00 UTC Reply

Between going "Oh, yeah, they have some technical errors" and then going and pointing them out unnecessarily. It's not going to be seen here, all it is is useless self congratulatory compliments, "oh, yes, I can spell better than them and I know what to do with apostrophes, to boot". The best way to help people improve is to tell them what mistakes they made and why it is a mistake, not going and saying it's why they are immediately inferior (without stating it outright, of course).

We're all writers here, and not everyone's work comes out perfect, which is why I mentioned PPC TOS; Jay and Acacia still had technical errors on stories written between them. There was no beta for PPC TOS, but there seem to be a few people here heavily ragging on that fact for this anti-Mary Sue society. Betaing, while a good thing, and something that vastly improves the quality of the story when it is paid attention to, is not mandatory, and even then it can miss things.

There's also the fact of not being aware that there are grammatical errors and whatnot, or not catching them on a readthrough. I had issues with its/it's for ages until it finally clicked.

My problem with most of the people replying to this thread is they are being overcritical for little reason other than it seems to be hurting their feelings or perceived investment in the PPC, which is ridiculous since a few of the most vehement comments in here are from people who haven't written anything PPC related for some time, or don't even have permission yet.

Additionally, accusing people of stealing- of plagiarism- is a serious issue, and not something that should be thrown about lightly.

Because honestly, who the hell is going to mistake PPC for SSU, or vice versa? ~~Those letters are nowhere near each other on the keyboard.~~

The sheer number of 'similarities' makes me uncomfortable. by Sedri on 2010-07-25 06:27:00 UTC Reply

The very first quote has a grevious punctuation error; any decent beta would have caught the extra apostrophie. That alone makes me think that this 'organsation' is both careless and hypocritical. Not maliciously so, but nonetheless. I don't like it.

Certainly, if someone without any knowledge of the PPC were to create a Sue-Slaying organisation, there are some things that would follow logcially - using in-canon weapons and avoiding interaction with canons - but the use of neuralysers, the style of the charge lists, and the "own 'world'" outside of any fandom are too specific to be natural coincidence.

My impression therefore is that this author read something from the PPC, loved it, but didn't like either our community restrictions or Permission-getting process and decided to strike out on their own. If she's being honest and encountered the PPC later, then I don't approve of her leaving her story up the way that it is - in her shoes, I would instantly take it down or heavily edit - but that's me and my determination not to offend anyone.

That said, I'm not inclined to be nasty about it. If we did present her with a list of things 'too similar that we want her to change' I imagine it would be both very long and poorly recieved, but I'm not ready to write to the FFN admin and try to get her taken down. That's unnecessary and uncalled for. I would rather that she either did some thorough editing and adjusted 'her' ideas so it's not such an obvious parallel, or apply for Permission and then adjust her work so it conforms to our standards - but, again, I don't see that happening.

In short, I'm not happy, but I'm not about to start a fight. In lieu of some very generous offers on her part, I'm inclined to leave it alone.

Re: The sheer number of 'similarities' makes me uncomfortable. by Simon on 2010-07-25 12:12:00 UTC Reply

>> My impression therefore is that this author read something from the PPC, loved it, but didn't like either our community restrictions or Permission-getting process and decided to strike out on their own.

This actually scared me off for while, and if you didn't have what I see as an excellent set up for this style of 'fic, I'd have struck out on my own too.

Which is fair enough, of course. by Sedri on 2010-07-26 01:14:00 UTC Reply

I just sort of wish that everyone would join in here, because I'd like to think we're fun. But I can see why that wouldn't happen.

Changes. by WikiMaster on 2010-07-25 04:26:00 UTC Reply

If you would take her at her word, here are some things that you could suggest:

It would be nice if the 'walking trees' were just background dressing, and the 'screams from the lower parts of the building' are eliminated. As for the 'neuralizors', ask her to use darts filled with Amnesia Potion instead. As for the CAD-like scanners, change them into visors that allow the wearer to see Sue Auras.

Note that all of this is hypothethical. by WikiMaster on 2010-07-25 12:42:00 UTC Reply

Personally, I have no problem with the fic.

I'm not at all suprised. by Aster Corbett on 2010-07-24 22:04:00 UTC Reply

Before I knew the PPC, I liked to write little adventures going around resolving horrible fandom issues and battling Mary Sues. Except in my stuff Mary Sues took more of a 'hive-mind aspects of a single Eldrich Abomination' feel to them. In fact, I still like to write them, and I'll be writing one with the help of a friend that actually includes PPC themes and stuff in it.

I think wanting to kill Sues is pretty commonplace...

Idk about stealing the idea, though... *shrug*

Considered writing a "crossover"? by Calista on 2010-07-25 01:26:00 UTC Reply

It might be interesting if PPC agents met your anti-Sue society. And would probably give the Multiverse Theory buffs a great deal more to theorize about... :)

Sadly, by Aster Corbett on 2010-07-26 13:56:00 UTC Reply

I didn't write anything as organized as that. Mostly I wrote just the antics of, well, Aster Corbett coming across badfic and rampaging through it with uzi and flamethrower in tow.

Actually, Aster (the character, not actually me) could very well fit INTO PPC Canon-- as a stupid renagade not inducted to the PPC yet with a hatred of badfic and all the wrong procedure to go about doing something about it.

In fact, this is one of the main premisies of the very long PPC-crossover-spinoff-thingie that I am writing with a friend. So yeah, something is getting written. XD
It would be funny... (nm) by raffitz on 2010-07-25 13:19:00 UTC Reply

I've just Googled... by Simon on 2010-07-24 22:01:00 UTC Reply

"Sue Slaying" and "Killed Badfic", and this is where I found the first PPC named results:
"Sue Slaying: At the bottom of the 4th page.
"killed badfic": First result.
"Badfic Killing": Once again first result.

My point being that a basic "Sue Slaying" search (the most likely search) wouldn't really bring us up unless the searcher has a longer attention span than most googlers.

Although I agree that a polite note might be helpful.
There is a bit too much similarity to be coincidence. by doctorlit on 2010-07-24 18:21:00 UTC Reply

If we're generous, I guess we could write it off as, "Snarky minds think alike."
Oh, lol. by MAXinsanity on 2010-07-24 17:49:00 UTC Reply

Seems like a run of the mill cheap knockoff to me.
There are some concerns... by Miah on 2010-07-24 17:07:00 UTC Reply

There are an uncomfortable number of similarities.

Something else that worries me is the number of spelling errors and misused words. This is similar enough that anyone that has read a PPC story is going to think of the PPC when reading this, and she has some rather obvious problems with SPAG. Basically, if she is going to imitate us that closely, then her standards shouldn't reflect poorly on us. (Kind of pretentious sounding, I realize, but it's still my opinion.)

Seconded on the errors by IndeMaat on 2010-07-24 22:22:00 UTC Reply

When I was reading through the quotes I was wondering whether Areaph was sharing because a) yay, we are not the only 'evil' Sue slaying / badfic mocking organisation out there; or b) this other organisation should be mocked for bad SGaP.

I don't like it. by Elemarth on 2010-07-24 16:37:00 UTC Reply

It's obvious she did steal, whether on purpose or not, and I think we have the right to ask her to change some things, like the neuralizors and CADs -- especially the CADs, which you couldn't make up independently. Charge lists make too much sense to complain about.

I think you should either ask her to change and/or tell her she has to put a disclaimer that she is not associated with the PPC.

I second the idea of requesting a disclaimer (nm) by Charlie DoDo on 2010-07-24 23:14:00 UTC Reply
The Disclaimer idea seems good... (nm) by raffitz on 2010-07-24 17:01:00 UTC Reply

Maybe she didn't... by Cassie Cameron-Young on 2010-07-24 12:33:00 UTC Reply

steal it on purpose, but there are far too many similarities for my comfort... a building "not in any canon", walking trees, a fully stocked armoury, rules about using canon-appropriate weaponry, no contact with the Canons unless necessary, neuralyzers, charges, ending on "being annoying", devices that sound suspiciously like CADs... and that's just from the quotes.

Maybe they can be left alone for now, but if things take any sort of serious downhill turn/they're associated with us/both, I think we might really have to contact them and ask them to knock it off. It reads more like someone's trying to do an unofficial spinoff without having to go through the process of getting Permission - not that I'm saying they are, mind. That's just the sort of impression it gives me.

What about leaving reviews? by Calista on 2010-07-24 18:07:00 UTC Reply

If the writer doesn't like Mary Sues, then it's not too much of a stretch to think that they might be responsive to the idea of improving their own writing--including making it unique rather than derivative, and checking spelling and grammar more carefully.