Flaming Denethor! - PPC Posting Board

Subject: Flaming Denethor!
Author: Elemarth
Posted on: 2010-06-23 01:18:00 UTC

Not being a fan of the movie versions of books, especially not Lord of the Rings, it wasn't until I saw Flaming Denethor referenced too many times on the PPC wiki that I watched this scene (on YouTube).

I'm mystified.

How can anyone have thought that was a good idea?

On top of that, the uploader of this video gave us a genius explanation of why the Witch King could defeat Gandalf. I will share:

Sauron>Gandalf
Sauron gives strength to a mortal so...
Witch King>Gandalf

I'm not even sure there's a name for that logical fallacy. Making a part the same as a whole, maybe? Or just total and complete lack of logic?

I joined the ranks of various other people in explaining why this is wrong.

But whenever I decide I hate Peter Jackson, I go back to the animated version. The animated RotK is even WORSE than the first-part-of-the-trilogy movie I watched a while back (and I quit that when I realized that Boromir was a Viking). It makes me want Bleeprin.

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Flaming Denethor! by Elemarth on 2010-06-23 01:18:00 UTC

I don't think PJ is that bad! by Aeidhryn on 2010-06-24 17:53:00 UTC Reply

The reason that equation doesn't work is:

Sauron>Gandalf
Sauron gives strength 2 mortal
Witch King>Gandalf

The correct theory would be:
Sauron>Gandalf
Sauron = Witch King
Witch King> Gandalf.

Which isn't true. That is why the equation suck.

gosh, Boromir as a glaurunging VIKING... Valar help us

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Yeah, I hate PJ too. by BattleHamster on 2010-06-23 20:17:00 UTC Reply

As the people who were around here when they announced that he would produce The Hobbit probably already know. (There were Big Nos involved.)

Don't watch his idea of what The Lord of the Rings should be like. You are much happier not knowing. The only really good thing that you'll miss is Christopher Lee as Saruman, and you can probably watch those scenes on YouTube.

The really WTF thing for me when I was watching Those Glaurunging Movies was having Sauron as a giant, flaming eye atop Barad-dur. I have no idea what they were thinking. And believe me, it isn't just Denethor's death that's ruined; it's his entire character. And don't get me started on Gimli, Faramir, Treebeard ... [several hours elapse] ... Frodo, Merry, Aragorn, Elrond ...

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I liked PJ (another deviant opinion, I know), but... by WikiMaster on 2010-06-24 00:59:00 UTC Reply

...yes, I agree with you on the Character Defilement thing. And the Elves at Helm's Deep were a Dethroning Moment of Suck for him, too. Or Elrond's teleportation from Rivendell to Dunharrow with the belatedly reforged Anduril.

I liked the fight scenes, though. And the scenery. The Acting didn't really get on my nerves because I ignored it, and I loved the costumes as well.

But still, that's just me.

Post End-Wik

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Elves at Helm's Deep... by Elcalion on 2010-06-24 02:07:00 UTC Reply

Yeah, I groaned when I saw the Galadhrim (pronounced incorrectly in the movie, I might add) arrive at Helm's Deep. The only saving bit was that it did have Crowning Music of Awesome.

And Faramir. No, you don't mess with my favourite character in that way. Blond!Faramir I could live with (especially since ~~Diver Dan~~ Daisy Wenham was playing him- go Aussie actors!), but Evil!Faramir really annoyed me.

M ore like Misguided!KnightTemplar! Faramir, but yes... by WikiMaster on 2010-06-24 02:43:00 UTC Reply

..., he was annoying.

Book!Faramir and Movie!Faramir are different people. by Calista on 2010-06-24 14:16:00 UTC Reply

Really. They have nothing in common but the name.

I see why they changed him--they wanted more conflict, and Gollum/Smeagol losing his trust in Frodo wasn't enough, apparently; they had to turn Faramir into a totally different person.

The original purpose of Faramir was to advance the plot and provide information about Boromir, Gondor and the Ringwraiths; also, I think, to give the reader and the Hobbits a bit of fresh air before Mordor. The LOTR movie makers didn't like that; they wanted yet more conflict and uncertainty for Frodo. Along the way, they nudge Gollum/Smeagol somewhat out of character, as he now has less reason to hate Frodo.

Gollum framing Sam is probably there for the same reason: Personality conflicts apparently are more interesting than going into the jaws of death to destroy an ancient evil, and Frodo can't have a moment's peace.

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Re: Book!Faramir and Movie!Faramir are different people. by Miah on 2010-06-24 21:05:00 UTC Reply

Faramir was my favorite character in the books, and I seriously hated how he was done in the movie, but someone from the PPC chat linked me to an article about that issue that made me re-think my position a bit.

I'm still very not happy with the way it was portrayed in the movies, this did redirect my anger a bit.

http://www.istad.org/tolkien/faramir.html

Re: Yeah, I hate PJ too. by Helen of Pylos on 2010-06-23 22:51:00 UTC Reply

Yeah, Faramir in particular made me mad. I mean what was the point in ruining the symbolism of the two brothers, the balance that Tolkien had created for a reason.
And Eowyn. Seriously, what was up with her looking all frightened before the battle of the Pelennor Fields. The only thing she feared, as she states in the book, was a cage. She would've liked a glorious death on the battlefield.

wow...that really got me going.
well... by Elemarth on 2010-06-23 20:21:00 UTC Reply

I always imagined Sauron as being something like that. It was a bit exaggerated, but I didn't find that disturbing.

Everything else I did.

Legolas and Gimli were the only people who looked how I imagined. Well, Gandalf, too. And we all know what he did to Gimli's character, because nobody can take a dwarf seriously. *sniff* Yeah, let's not get into that.

Funny thing, that scene never upset me much. by Calista on 2010-06-23 14:18:00 UTC Reply

When I first saw it, I was thinking, "Oh, I see, so that's how they're going to get around that."

Realistically showing someone burning to death can get pretty gruesome; and the thought had popped into my mind occasionally about how they were going to manage that scene. LotR isn't supposed to be a horror movie; and being that graphic would probably have been a bit jarring.

I did not expect them to turn Denethor into a fireball of death. I expected them to either focus on the rescue of Faramir, or to have Denethor set the pyre on fire and then commit suicide some other way.

It really didn't upset me all that much that they decided to go the special-effects route. Gimli being turned into comic relief, on the other hand...

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Oh, God. I will never forgive PJ for Gimli. by BattleHamster on 2010-06-23 20:19:00 UTC Reply

Or for a number of the other characters, for that matter, but especially not Gimli.

Actually... by Elorie on 2010-06-23 08:13:00 UTC Reply

... what I find interesting about this is how far Denethor can run on fire!
I mean, he goes all the distance from Rath Dinen on the sixth level (if I'm not mistaken) to the spire on the seventh to drop from it? That's how far, a few hundred yards? And that's without loosing the sense of direction due to panic.
It does make the scene somewhat humourous in my eyes...

yeah... by Elemarth on 2010-06-23 14:29:00 UTC Reply

I did consider that, too. It's not possible. I mean, his skin is burning, in case you haven't noticed.

Completely with you on this by Helen of Pylos on 2010-06-23 03:53:00 UTC Reply

I remember watching that part going "Huh?" I only watch those movies for the battle sequences, because they are fun. But the part I really hate is when Gollum frames Sam and Frodo believes him. I mean seriously? Way to mess that relationship up, thanks filmmakers.

But, yeah, agreed on the Flaming Denethor thing. What were they thinking?

(on an almost completely different note: the Princess Bride Movie does capture the spirit of the book brilliantly!)

Re: Completely with you on this by Agent Twain on 2010-06-24 23:47:00 UTC Reply

Well, for Princess Bride, it helps that William Goldman, who wrote the book, also wrote the screenplay . . .

But, ugh, yes -- that bit with Frodo and Sam was the worst, I agree. Faramir was bad. Denethor was bad. But screwing around with Frodo and Sam makes me go into red rage every time.

Er. Every time I think about it, that is. Don't plan on watching the movies again.