Re: It's more like...

Subject: Re: It's more like...
Author: Calista
Posted on: 2010-05-27 21:32:00 UTC

There's got to be more to it than that. I mean, if a possible apocalypse is all it takes to turn every single agent into a cliched action hero, then it'd be near-impossible to write decent stories that involve real danger. And I've read some of the stuff you linked to; it's not badly written, it's just as interesting as traditional mission reports, and it seems nowhere near what anyone here hates, if "what we hate" is indeed mary sues and bad writing. The only thing that makes sense to me about the whole thing is that there was too much of it in too quick succession; that, presumably, it would've been fine to have Emergency-type events once or twice every couple of years, rather than constantly.

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Separate Head for the Veterinary Division of Medical? by Laburnum on 2010-05-26 18:01:00 UTC Reply

Kit and I have decided that, what with the influx of anthro and pet characters needing medical treatment, Medical needs a division devoted specifically to them. My question is whether this Division would require a separate Head of Department, and if so, should they be human or plant or what?

I think you could do either by Sedri on 2010-05-27 01:40:00 UTC Reply

After all, the PPC isn't exactly known for having the most efficient and logical management, is it?

Just speaking personally, I think I'd like it if the non-human (or non-humanoid) patients could have a little division of their own, even if in practical reality it just gets caught up in general Medical anyway. And the idea of a non-human Head would be appropriate, too, either flora of fauna. (Do we have any anthro/animal Heads yet? I don't think so; unsure.)

Whoever it is, they should certainly be a doctor who already works in that area. EdW has a good point about the potential hillarity of a promoted Flower, though.

I do have a character Kit and I want to use there ... by Laburnum on 2010-05-27 12:10:00 UTC Reply

Val, the nurse who briefly appeared in TS and helped to birth Moses. I wanted to develop her a bit as a character, so she can be a mentor to the "pets" we're picking up from the sporking of For Your Eyes Only - they wouldn't make good field agents, but we were thinking of finding them work in the Nursery.

Sounds promising by Sedri on 2010-05-28 00:48:00 UTC Reply

Any reason why Val wouldn't work as the Head? She may not be overly qualified, but that could be very funny... Either way, if you want to use her, I won't object, even though I've never read her.

Can't think of any reason. by Laburnum on 2010-05-28 11:16:00 UTC Reply

Hmmm ... Val is apparently a normal human, as Nin didn't notice anything odd about her when she met her, and Lux described her as "sheltered" (sheltered enough not to have heard of Lux's reputation). That's more or less all we know about her. I can work with that, though ...

Thoughts... by Calista on 2010-05-26 20:51:00 UTC Reply

*There's precedent in Medical for non-Flower department heads, of course. But wouldn't it be more of a "division head" than a department head? Or you could just call them "wards", like in a hospital.

*Medical already handles at least a large minority of non-human patients--not just anthros and pets, but creatures with biology that's not even based on Earth-style biochemistry. One can assume they're pretty flexible that way.

*Doctors do tend to specialize; but when their overall field is already so broad, it may be that to them there's not all that much difference between two mammals--say, a cat and a human--when on the same day they may be treating a Taxxon or a velociraptor... or even more bizarre things, like energy creatures or two-dimensional beings.

I think thereneedn't necessarily be a specific division, though there could be. But there are almost certainly specialist doctors--doctors who specialize in humans (as they're the largest group), or doctors who specialize in unusual biologies, or doctors who specialize in specific problems like resurrecting canon characters or monitoring and managing the glitter levels of ex-Sue agents. And yeah, with all the anthro and pet characters--I think it's very likely that there exist one or more doctors who specialize in the biology of Earth and parallel-Earth animal and anthropomorphic animal characters.

If there are subdivisions in Medical, they could also be functional divisions: A ward for Agents; a ward for canon characters; a ward for contagious problems; a ward to isolate characters who, left to their own devices, would attempt to assimilate HQ or get glomped by every fangirl within a ten-mile radius; a ward for rescued mpreg babies to grow to full-term before being transferred to the nursery.

I'd agree that wards make sense. by Neshomeh on 2010-05-26 23:31:00 UTC Reply

But that's because that's how I set up FicPsych, which is similar to Medical and even shares personnel sometimes. But then, I guess that was because it made sense at the time, so it works. {= )

Anyway, I also agree that it makes more sense for the nurses in Medical to just have specialties rather than to be segregated into divisions. I think that the majority of canon characters and agents are human, so it doesn't make sense to have personnel sitting in divisions where they probably wouldn't have much to do most of the time. They would just get drafted into the general staff anyway, so they might as well be unsegregated in the first place.

~Neshomeh

Okay, wards then. by Laburnum on 2010-05-26 23:39:00 UTC Reply

Can I still create a Veterinary Ward?

Good timing by Pretzel on 2010-05-27 02:31:00 UTC Reply

I think this is a great idea; after all, there're some Agents that're were-creatures or other kinds of shapeshifters that don't always fall under the category of "human" 24/7, not to mention the anthros from Redwall and various other continua. This is good timing; one of my Agents that I'll be writing (hopefully, anyways) is a tri-morphic shapeshifter (humananthro lionessfull lioness), and tends to stay in anthro form unless she has to go into a Word World.

Sounds like Medical needs multiple divisions then ... by Laburnum on 2010-05-26 22:07:00 UTC Reply

I don't really do sci-fi, so the high numbers of aliens in the PPC tend not to occur to me. If anyone else wants to explore the other ideas, it sounds cool to me.
Another thing-- by Calista on 2010-05-26 20:55:00 UTC Reply

If there's a veterinary division, would it make sense to have it handle all the "weird biology" cases? Vets have got to be really flexible as it is; if human-specialized doctors are handling all the human cases, then chances are if a three-legged Martian or a two-inch-high pixie shows up at Medical, it'd get shunted off to the veterinary division by default.

And yet another thing. by Calista on 2010-05-26 21:01:00 UTC Reply

I hate that this board doesn't have an edit function so I can just edit my post when I think of something else I wanted to say. :(

Here's some tech that could be useful for weird biology:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sector_General

Sector General is a sci-fi continuum where doctors who treat multiple alien patients get the knowledge (and personalities) of doctors who know those species downloaded into their brains. It tends to make the doctor a little loopy, but it's a life's work to learn the biology of one species, let alone several hundred.

If you were allowed to edit... by Edward Wilder on 2010-05-26 22:11:00 UTC Reply

Nobody would bother reading the edits, because they wouldn't think to check a post twice for something new. Hardly anybody reads all the posts here anyways (I know I don't) so being able to edit means getting heard even less.

New edits by Goldenrod111 on 2010-05-27 05:50:00 UTC Reply

I could definitely attest to the rarity of rechecking read posts, and anything that was added after I had gone through the first time would be completely missed. I would like to say, however, that I always check every new post (almost—I miss anything that is posted and drops off the end of page one before I get back on). I just can't stand the bright links. ;)

Sounds like a good idea... by Edward Wilder on 2010-05-26 20:34:00 UTC Reply

Probobly it'll need a Head Doctor/Nurse/Healer/Thingimabob, though. But I don't think we have Division Heads unless the Divisions themselves are very large, and I'm not sure we should allowed to pull Flowers into the PPC without any explanation of why they weren't there in the first place. Maybe a Flower could get promoted from a lower position, like a Janitor or that Daisy from the Fifth Anniversary. But on the other hand, he wouldn't really know how to head a Department...But on a random third hand, a newbie Department Head might be hilarious if written right. I can imagine it...It's trying to act all officious in front of the Agents, but it keeps forgetting things, and acting shy in front of the other Heads, and all the fangirlish Agents are trying so hard not to go 'squee' all over him...And now I want to make up a new Department just so I that'll happen. And I do, and we start arguing, and suddenly there's a random Emergency that comes from it, and this makes Neshomeh explodes...somehow...I dunno. I like Neshomeh, so I think I'm gonna stop talking now, yeah?

Nice Head by Goldenrod111 on 2010-05-27 06:26:00 UTC Reply

I really like the idea of having a new, slightly shy, Head (Vet?) I'd be happy to try to write one, but I don't know much about medical procedures, and I don't want to become overworked this early. If anyone is interested in writing this character (assuming the position is created), submit your application; don't worry about my tentative claim. Otherwise, I'll see what I can do. Anyway, I like the idea of splitting Medical into wards. It would allow the doctors greater specialization, but without the (almost) complete separation that Divisions would create. Personally, if I were a non-human agent, I'd feel better about being treated by someone with experience in something other than the human body.
*blink* by Neshomeh on 2010-05-26 23:38:00 UTC Reply

I'm not sure why I would explode. If I did, though--if it was that bad--I hope I wouldn't be alone. {; p

~Neshomeh, who actually does read almost everything on the Board.

According to the Wiki, you don't want emergencies anymore... by Edward Wilder on 2010-05-27 00:01:00 UTC Reply

...But now I can't find the article where you had said that so I may be confusing you with somebody else (or imagining the whole thing entirely)

Re. emergencies by Calista on 2010-05-27 08:00:00 UTC Reply

Does that refer to "incidents that require multiple agents to handle", or "incidents that require multiple writers to handle"?

I'm asking because I'm wondering whether it's off-limits to write things that involve crises that don't stay within the fic you're trying to ppc at the time--like a Sue (or a flamethrower-crazy agent) loose in HQ, or a particularly bad fic that requires more than just one team to resolve.

I could see why a lot of people working on one story might be annoying; but would there be anything wrong with a single writer, or maybe a team of two writers, calling in other people's agents as backup when things got difficult to handle? Not that it'd happen constantly; but eventually, you're going to end up with dino-sues or crossovers with characters from five different continua, and it's reasonable you'd need help.

Naturally this presumes that you'd have the agents' owners' permission, or were using your own agents, or were using publicly-owned agents when you called in backup.
Yeah, definitely not just me. by Neshomeh on 2010-05-27 00:44:00 UTC Reply

After the Macrovirus Epidemic, the Mary Sue Invasion, and then the whole Big Brother/Key to Canon/Silver Gate thing in 2008, we all pretty much agreed that we'd had enough--"we" being the majority of active Boarders at the time.

If it ever IS just me making calls about anything, I expect you all to tell me so and make me go sit in a corner until my ego deflates. Seriously. {= p

~Neshomeh

Me too. by Laburnum on 2010-05-27 12:12:00 UTC Reply

Are minor emergencies-with-a-small-e which only affect a few agents still okay, though? Things where HQ as a whole isn't threatened, but a group of agents could be captured or wiped out?

I hope so... by Elcalion on 2010-05-27 14:36:00 UTC Reply

Since in my last mission I ~~purposely~~ accidentally unleashed a Stu!Grizzly bear on HQ, which required several agents to take down.

I admit being biased on the matter, but I'd think that as long as there's no "OMG TEH ANGST THE END OF THE PPC AS WE KNOW IT" it should be ok? No?

Elcalion, looking shifty

Personally, I don't see why not. by Calista on 2010-05-27 16:14:00 UTC Reply

As far as I can tell, the emergencies annoyed everybody because they basically sucked all the agents into them, forcing everybody to write serious or relatively-serious stuff instead of sporking badfic or writing funny fluff pieces. Not everybody likes that. But the people who were actually around for it will know more about why it ended up being annoying.

I've read fics where people brought in more agents to help with particularly bad sues--stuff like having to exorcise all of Arda and giving cameos to a bunch of agents along the way; or bringing in a dozen agents to take out dino!Sues; or portaling invisible wildlife into the cafeteria and watching the hilarity. I think it'd get kinda annoying if it was nothing but stalk-charge-kill/exorcise over and over; doesn't there have to be some variety? Besides, I like a good combat scene, especially if it involves creative strategy.

IMO, there's a difference between some good old chaos where you have to call in the backup, and having the Mirror Multiverse or the Factory Sues try to take over again. It's like monster-of-the-day versus apocalypse-of-the-month, and so long as it stays monster-of-the-day, it feels like it would fit right in, or at least to me it does.

It's more like... by Neshomeh on 2010-05-27 17:48:00 UTC Reply

Monster-of-the-month vs. apocalypse-of-the-month. See, if you check out Year:2008, you will note that we had the Macrovirus Epidemic and the death of Makes-Things in March, followed shortly by the Sue Invasion in April, followed by the Big Brother/Key to Canon thing in June, followed by the Silver Gate thing in November. Somewhere in all that, we decided enough was enough.

Like Elcalion said, occasional, minor, agent-specific things where you have to call for backup is okay, because getting cameos is fun; it's just when everything becomes OMG TEH MULTIVERSE IS IN DANGER AND I MUST BE MORE AWESUM TAN EVAR TO SAVE US! that we have issues. Because if you give a writer a crisis, s/he wants to write a bigger crisis. If you give an agent more power, the agent will tend to get even more power. Etc., etc. It's a slippery slope toward becoming what we hate, and it's not what we're about.

See also Catastrophe Theory and Cycle Theory. We want these NOT to be true.

~Neshomeh

The Maya were riiiiiight! (nm) by Maudlin Hart on 2010-05-28 12:58:00 UTC Reply

{X D Thank you for that. (nm) by Neshomeh on 2010-05-28 17:47:00 UTC Reply

Re: It's more like... by Calista on 2010-05-27 21:32:00 UTC Reply

There's got to be more to it than that. I mean, if a possible apocalypse is all it takes to turn every single agent into a cliched action hero, then it'd be near-impossible to write decent stories that involve real danger. And I've read some of the stuff you linked to; it's not badly written, it's just as interesting as traditional mission reports, and it seems nowhere near what anyone here hates, if "what we hate" is indeed mary sues and bad writing. The only thing that makes sense to me about the whole thing is that there was too much of it in too quick succession; that, presumably, it would've been fine to have Emergency-type events once or twice every couple of years, rather than constantly.

Somewhat. by Neshomeh on 2010-05-27 23:03:00 UTC Reply

Yes, if it had been once or twice every couple of years, or perhaps even if some of those things had centered around different agents, it would have been fine. But that's not how it was.

In addition to that, more and more new people were coming in going "Hey, guys! I have this really awesome idea for an emergency!" and "What if my agent was this uber-species and had all these superpowers and big weapons?", and that didn't help, either. It would have turned into a one-up contest, which is not what we're here for. We put a moratorium on emergencies so people would be able to experience what we normally do.

I don't agree with your contention that "no possible apocalypse stories" = "it is now impossible to write stories that involve real danger." There are plenty of ways to have real danger without threatening all of HQ/the multiverse. Again, we have no problem with things like Elcalion's bear, or Pads going into labor in the middle of a mission, or (I hope) my DIC agents nearly being killed because of some 'Sued Pernese dragons, or even Dafydd attempting to use a Sue artifact, getting blown to the Halls of Mandos, and getting dragged back (sans one hand) by his irate fiancee--mainly because it served him right and he suffered the consequences, and it was hilarious. Mainly we just don't want things that result in overpowered or overly dramatic agents, or leave the PPC incontrovertibly altered for everyone afterward.

~Neshomeh

Oh, don't worry - we will ;p But in this case I support you by Sedri on 2010-05-27 01:34:00 UTC Reply

I'm just not overly vocal about it.

Sorry, 'any more emergencies' (nm) by Edward Wilder on 2010-05-27 00:01:00 UTC Reply