Seconding.

Flames by Silikat on 2010-05-19 18:01:00 UTC Reply

This is something that has been bugging me for a while. What is the line between concrit and flaming? I take concrit to be something that shows flaws in your writing but offers to help fix them or some sort of advice, and flames to be insulting/being rude about the author. But there is a grey area between the two.]

For example, where would a review saying 'You can't write, all your characters are Sues and you deserve to die', but linking to a place detailing what Mary-Sues are and how to fix them, fall? It's unnecessarily mean but it does link to a help site.

Just something I've been thinking about for a while. I'll be interested to see what you say.

Agreeing with everyone so far. by Sedri on 2010-05-20 03:19:00 UTC Reply

That's a flame. From my perspective, it's all to do with the attitude of the message and how it's meant to make you feel. True, some writers are oversensitive and will see flames where they don't exist, but experience is usually enough to work out what the review writer's intention was.

But indeed, a personal attack is a dead giveaway, and when reviews consist of unhelpful comments or focus on the author's talent rather than the story's content, I find they're almost always flames anyway.
I'd call that example a flame. by WIde Eyed Idealist on 2010-05-19 20:13:00 UTC Reply

Especially if you only link to a help site instead of listing the specific flaws with those particular characters. "You can't write" is harsh but isn't enough to (in my opinion) make something a flame, as long as you say "All your characters are Sues because of [blah blah blah blah that is reasonable]. "You deserve to die" is a) inaccurate based on simple bad writing, b) never okay ever, and c) would always make anything a flame.
Agreed. Personal attacks. by Calista on 2010-05-19 20:07:00 UTC Reply

There's a difference between saying "you suck" and "that story sucks".

There's also a difference between saying "that story sucks" and saying, "that story sucks; here's how you make it better."

Politeness is generally preferable, but it's not politeness that makes something not a flame. It's the general attitude. If you're trying to communicate or inform, then it's not a flame. If you're trying to insult someone or make them feel stupid, then it is.

Seconding. by Neshomeh on 2010-05-19 22:19:00 UTC Reply

I agree that politeness isn't everything. It is entirely possible to tell someone politely that the world would be a better place if they were on fire--but that doesn't make it nice or helpful.

It can help a lot to avoid "you" language and stick to "I" language. Instead of saying "Your main character is a classic Sue and your writing needs work," you can say "I can't relate to your main character because of traits A, B, and C, and it would be much easier for me to follow the story if it were spell-checked and had better paragraphing. By the way, here's a website explaining how paragraphs work."

This approach runs the risk of making it easy for them to brush your comments off as a personal problem, but the kind of person who does that probably wouldn't respond positively to concrit in any form. Anyway, that way you avoid seeming to accuse people of anything, and it can help keep them from immediately getting defensive. Not always, of course, but sometimes.

~Neshomeh

I never thought of that 'I' thing. by Silikat on 2010-05-20 07:48:00 UTC Reply

That could be very useful, thanks.

"I" language can get awkward. by Calista on 2010-05-20 19:30:00 UTC Reply

If you have to use a pronoun, it's better to use "I". But it can be a little awkward, and if it is awkward then it's obvious you're using it, which defeats the purpose because it sounds like you're patronizing them...

Better to stay away from pronouns in general, I think. Talking about the story without either "you" or "I" seems to work best for me.

Personally, flaming starts with insults by anamia on 2010-05-19 18:18:00 UTC Reply

So, for me, your example would be a flame. Yes, it links to a help site, but its main purpose is to hurt the author. When I give concrit, I do my best to leave the author out of it as much as I can, much like when I PPC stories, and just focus on the writing.

So, instead of saying, "You can't write, etc." I'd go more for something like, "All the characters read like Mary Sues, which isn't something that attracts readers," and then link to the help site.

Then again, I also think that I can be a bit too nice in my critiques. -shrugs- As you say, it's a matter of balance.

--anamia