Re: well...

Subject: Re: well...
Author: Ansela
Posted on: 2009-04-20 09:48:00 UTC

I'm not a PG, but I'm saying no, this idea seems like a bad one. It seems to me that you're giving your Agent an ability that would make missions far too easy for him. Yes, all Agents would love the ability to shapeshift, but that is part of the reason why the DORKS exists.

In the other part of the thread you mentioned using human disguises to kill the Sues. I don't know about the Warriors series past what I've heard on fanficrants, badficquotes and TVTropes, but I've got the impression that these are feral cats. Feral cats, as a general rule, will run away from humans and therefore human Agents wouldn't get close enough to kill them. Never mind the problems that your Agents would have carrying weapons around in modern day Britain.

Lightning throwing dragons would be an even bigger attention drawer. As I've already pointed out, disguises are there to help Agents blend in with canon. Modern day Britain is no Rivendell to allow Agents to walk around in a disguise that sticks out like a sore thumb. Dragons stick out like a sore thumb.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that this permanent transformation into a dragon would make your Agent too powerful with too few drawbacks, as far as I can see. He is, in my opinion (which may not count for much, I know), in danger of becoming a Stu with this idea.

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A possibly confusing question by jabbuk d'eldrin on 2009-04-19 02:33:00 UTC Reply

I already know that a disguise generator disguise can become permanent under certain conditions, but is it ok to use that to permanently change my agent's species?

Re: A possibly confusing question by Pads on 2009-04-19 03:34:00 UTC Reply

You'd be talking a fairly massive malfunction - this is technology hundreds of agents use daily without mishap - and you'd need a reason why it couldn't reversed - Medical is damned good - and you'd need to make it for comedic effect too. If it's going to change your agent's species, and you'll give the change a nod then never mention it again, I'd advise against it. But if it's a plot point, and it aids the comedic telling of a mission, and serves a purpose, then by all means, go for it.
It's been done before... by Ugolino on 2009-04-19 03:01:00 UTC Reply

Would there be an in-story reason for doing so?

Three times, to my knowledge. by Huinesoron on 2009-04-19 22:05:00 UTC Reply

Possibly only two. I can't remember whether the person who got turned into a Pak Protector was in disguise at the time. But anyway, that one and the two people who got turned permanently into elves got stuck because they'd experienced something which would kill them if they changed back (in the elven case, several hundred years). The other case is Tawaki, who is now a Time Lord due to being on the verge of death when he was disguised as one. That meant he regenerated and thus would be dead if he changed back. Again, disguise filter or something.

Note that this doesn't work for weapon strikes - Jay and Acy got shot up with arrows as Ents, but were still able to change back. So I can't see any reasonable way someone could become a dragon due to that sort of malfunction. Any other kind, I don't know of any precedents for, so that's up to the author.

hS

the reason for the change is such by jabbuk d'eldrin on 2009-04-20 00:24:00 UTC Reply

in Dragonlance, Bronze dragons can breath (or throw, I can't remember which) lightning, but only after having absorbed some, be it from a lightning strike, or launched by another bronze. that, at least in the dragonlance continuum, is enough to fry a human. or a dwarf, or any other non-magical being without protection. or, of course, I could simply portal into the forgotten realms continuum immediately before the Dragonrage occurs, and have him sleep for the several centuries that it lasts for. that would also work.

But why? by Ansela on 2009-04-20 02:13:00 UTC Reply

Does he need to be able to throw/breathe lightning? Is there some sort of canon/Sue creature that can only be killed by lightning in the continua you'll be working in? Could the job be done without throwing lightning around and magically shapeshifting whenever your Agent feels like it?

well... by jabbuk d'eldrin on 2009-04-20 03:32:00 UTC Reply

I thought the lightning would be a novel alternative to simple killing the replacement clans in a certain warriors fic, and as for the transformation, it would be very difficult for two agents disguised as cats to carry around books, writing utensils, and various other things.

Re: well... by Ansela on 2009-04-20 09:48:00 UTC Reply

I'm not a PG, but I'm saying no, this idea seems like a bad one. It seems to me that you're giving your Agent an ability that would make missions far too easy for him. Yes, all Agents would love the ability to shapeshift, but that is part of the reason why the DORKS exists.

In the other part of the thread you mentioned using human disguises to kill the Sues. I don't know about the Warriors series past what I've heard on fanficrants, badficquotes and TVTropes, but I've got the impression that these are feral cats. Feral cats, as a general rule, will run away from humans and therefore human Agents wouldn't get close enough to kill them. Never mind the problems that your Agents would have carrying weapons around in modern day Britain.

Lightning throwing dragons would be an even bigger attention drawer. As I've already pointed out, disguises are there to help Agents blend in with canon. Modern day Britain is no Rivendell to allow Agents to walk around in a disguise that sticks out like a sore thumb. Dragons stick out like a sore thumb.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that this permanent transformation into a dragon would make your Agent too powerful with too few drawbacks, as far as I can see. He is, in my opinion (which may not count for much, I know), in danger of becoming a Stu with this idea.

sort of by jabbuk d'eldrin on 2009-04-19 04:57:00 UTC Reply

Do you know anything about dungeons and dragons, or, specifically, the dragonlance campaign setting? the dragons in that continuum, or at least some kinds, are natural shapeshifters and magic users. I could use that to allow my more homicidal agent to be able to disguise himself without having to store all his weapons.

um... by Techno-Dann on 2009-04-19 18:29:00 UTC Reply

D&Dverse dragons are extremely powerful. I would suggest you think back to TOS a bit - Acacia manages to carry enough stabby things to mangle a small army, regardless of disguise.

*is an idiot* by Techno-Dann on 2009-04-19 18:43:00 UTC Reply

... and apparently, center-clicking on the "return to messages" button (to bring it up in a new tab) posts the message. Good thing I finished the sentence...

Anyways, to continue with my thought, Acacia manages to carry enough stabby things to mangle a small army, regardless of disguise. Details change to fit the disguise - bows become big ugly Uruk-Hai ones, arrows become poisoned, and so on, but the weapons stay around, useable, and canonically correct. I would add a caveat to that, Continuums don't know what to do with anachronistic weapons, so a shotgun brought into Middle-Earth would remain a shotgun.

I would strongly advise against making an agent into a dragon, especially if it works perfectly and there are no humorous side effects afterwards. Look at what the PPC does: We're ordinary people slowly going insane because we're trying to do an impossible job to save not just one world, but many. Becoming a flying, hyper intelligent, armor plated, magic-wielding, fire-breathing killing machine really doesn't seem to me to fit that theme.

There have been crazy fanfiction ideas that have worked, and worked really well (E.G. "hey, let's make a school for suethors where all the Canons are teachers!"), but this one really does concern me. I'm not sure how practical, or even possible, it would be to pull off well.

Also, you must consider that a dragon is a fairly significant creature in a lot of continuums, to the point where a dragon agent could well be noticed and forced to play the part of a random dragon - which would be just as disruptive to the Council of Elrond as, say, a Sue. (And quite a bit more risky, too - Glorfindel took down a Balrog, I suspect he could do the same to a dragon.)

OK by jabbuk d'eldrin on 2009-04-19 20:15:00 UTC Reply

It's probably a good thing that I plan on working primarily in the Warriors continuum, which is set in *probably* modern England/Britain. And is about cats. Therefor, I could use the agent I plan on turning into a dragon to hold onto the equipment while they are cats. I mean, how often do you see a cat with an anti-tank weapon? Or a Tavor assault rifle? The dragon's shapechanging ability morphs the dragon and any weapons or clothing they are wearing while in humanoid form. And the kind he would become glows very brightly when transforming.

But why use those weapons? by Huinesoron on 2009-04-19 21:55:00 UTC Reply

Why not take something canonically appropriate? Sure, it'd be harder to kill the 'Sue, but the PPC isn't supposed to have it easy. If they do, we're doing something wrong.

hS

because they are appropriate by jabbuk d'eldrin on 2009-04-20 00:19:00 UTC Reply

the continuum i will *normally* be in is set in modern britain. therefore an assault rifle is technically canonical, according to the time period. besides, the agent will probably at least try to disguise himself as a sergeant in the SAS. justifying him carrying an assault rifle when he is in human form. and his partner's Arctic Warfare Magnum sniper rifle. and the ammunition. and anything else he might need.

Thing about the SAS is ... by The Trojanhorse on 2009-04-20 02:11:00 UTC Reply

... they don't just wander around tooled up. Carrying weaponry around modern Britain is sort of not really the done thing. It's *conspicuous*.

Look, it's sposed to be comically difficult to kill these things. Wandering around with the most powerful weaponry you can justify from the continuum in question kind of takes the fun and the laughs away.

the weapons by jabbuk d'eldrin on 2009-04-20 03:14:00 UTC Reply

you think it wouldn't be funny if I accidentally stuck the tube on my Javelin rocket launcher backwards? But you're probably right. still, it would be rather hard to carry all of the other things that my agents need, such as food, things to amuse themselves with, or something to record the charges, etc on if necessary.

*twitch* by Ansela on 2009-04-20 02:04:00 UTC Reply

SOLDIERS DO NOT CARRY WEAPONS OFF BASE UNLESS THERE IS A VERY GOOD REASON FOR IT!

/capslock o' rage

Seriously, that's a bad idea. Disguises are meant to blend in so the Agents aren't noticed. Places like Rivendell, where Agents can walk around as Orcs without being noticed are the exception rather than the rule. Squaddies in uniform catch the eye when they're not armed. Adding an SA-80 to the mix is just asking for the Monkeys to be called to deal with them.

hence the transformation by jabbuk d'eldrin on 2009-04-20 03:17:00 UTC Reply

weapons would disappear, because a cat can't carry a gun