The missing pieces

Subject: The missing pieces
Author: Phobos
Posted on: 2013-07-29 17:49:00 UTC

The problem I am talking about was not Tawaki and Laburnum's entries on TVT. Wanting to make the article a better reflection of the PPC, as a whole, was what started the event, but it wasn't the problem. The problem was really the result of that cleanup.

What happened was that a fairly large group of PPCers (mainly from the chat, I believe) got together to make the page more representative of the PPC as a whole. They added things, deleted things, and edited more things. TV Tropes did not like this. They reverted a lot of the edits and accused us of trying cover up our real image (the "whitewashing" in the article). Words were exchanged, someone got banned from TV Tropes (I don't know who) and it really just left a bad taste in peoples' mouths.

So, yes, a cleanup of the page is in order. However, it would probably not be in order if TV Tropes admins had just allowed us to clean it up the last time.

-Phobos, who is not fond of TVT Admins, but doesn't mind Tropers in general.

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TV Tropes idea(hear me out) by Voyd on 2013-07-29 15:21:00 UTC Reply

I apologize for the double thread, but at least I'm not asking for permi*bang bang bang*

Anyway, I am a dedicated troper, and I was wondering about something.

How could one go about creating a Characters page for the PPC? I know that due to the sheer number of agents, it couldn't be on one page. Would it have to be divided into sub-subpages by department?

It almost seems like a worthy project. What do you guys think?

Forget I said anything by Voyd on 2013-07-30 20:32:00 UTC Reply

I'm deleting the doc, but I wish that someone could delete threads.

I didn't realize that the idea would be so inflammatory. I'm sorry that I brought it up in the first place.
The list by Voyd on 2013-07-30 17:57:00 UTC Reply

I have taken what everyone has said into account. Thus, I am going to do this.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Kl-PH8UxCULNz0QVAqWEnQUmHUXCEk0em3xKJ9261rA/edit

Clicking on the above link will take you to a Google Doc that all of you are free to edit.

If you want to have your agents listed, awesome! Feel free to sign and post the characters you would like featured on the page.

Please do not feel that you're obligated to do anything. This is just for fun, and it it isn't such for you, then by no means are you required to sign.

Hopefully this is a good plan, and that it makes things happen!

An alternative idea by hermione of vulcan on 2013-07-30 20:53:00 UTC Reply

Instead of making a TV Tropes page, why don't we just make it a game? Anyone who wants to can post on the Board a list of their agents and the tropes they think apply. It'll be a fun exercise in character development and story-building, but to avoid...issues, it'll stay here on the Board.

I actually like the idea of trying to find tropes that fit with the PPC, but dealing with the actual site seems to bring up resentment and some bad history, which are not conducive to the fun idea this is.

I agree. by Sergio Turbo on 2013-07-31 14:09:00 UTC Reply

As much as I'd like a TvTropes page for my spinoff or fanfictions just to play with the tropes, too much PPC stuff ot TvTropes might be a bad idea, especially considering what happened in the past.

This idea sounds good, though.

(And I still want a TvTropes page for my fanfiction. It's already in their recommendation list for the Madoka Magica continuum, why shouldn't it have a page too?)

/chuckles by Desdendelle on 2013-08-04 06:03:00 UTC Reply

Well, it's in the FanFicsRecs page because I put it there. But, yeah, I don't see a reason why IrregularS shouldn't have a page.

Derivative idea by Voyd on 2013-07-30 21:21:00 UTC Reply

Perhaps put it on the PPC Wiki?
I like this. {= ) (nm) by Neshomeh on 2013-07-30 20:56:00 UTC Reply

I don't feel that you answered my question, actually. by Neshomeh on 2013-07-30 19:45:00 UTC Reply

Thus, it's hard for me to believe you've taken the concern behind it into account.

I understand that you're intending this to be just for fun, and that no one has to participate, but it seems to me that going ahead with trying to make a Characters page on TVT happen at this time ignores the reasons some of us may not want to participate, such as a dislike of TV Tropes policies and the fact that this page seems redundant to what we already have on our own turf—where, I should emphasize, we have authorial control and don't have to worry about some admins telling us that anyone can say whatever they want about our characters, stories, and world even if it's perpetuating a damaging misrepresentation. This is an important concern to me, and it may be important for others, as well. We can't know for sure unless they speak up, of course, but all the same I'd like it if you would please tell me why you think this would benefit the PPC despite my worries. I'm willing to be convinced if you've got some good reasons.

~Neshomeh
Re: The List by Storme Hawk on 2013-07-30 18:46:00 UTC Reply

The one problem I have with your linked document is are we allowed to use Jay and Acacia without their permission? I'd of thought that like the majority of other Agents you'd have to gain permission from their Creators before putting them on the list.

Answer by Voyd on 2013-07-30 18:49:00 UTC Reply

Jay and Acacia are the foundation of the PPC. Without them, the page would have no meaning. They're the "canon" of the PPC, we're all fanon. Plus, it's impossible to contact them nowadays anyway.

TL;DR they're necessary and also retired.

Rules are rules by Phobos on 2013-07-30 19:22:00 UTC Reply

If you need consent, then you need consent. You can't just decide that the rules don't apply to people who are too hard to get a hold of.

If you can't get it done by following the rules, then you shouldn't do it.

-Phobos

I'm starting to regret saying anything. by Voyd on 2013-07-29 22:30:00 UTC Reply

I didn't realize things between the PPC and TV Tropes were this bad.

Some of us feel more strongly about it than others. by VixenMage on 2013-07-29 23:59:00 UTC Reply

I apologize if I made it seem as though there was a concrete wall around the entire subject - we have a lot of PPCers who are Tropers, and I rather like the site in general myself. I have a habit of speaking very strongly about and in arguments, as if there was some kind of absolute answer to which I was privy, and that is obviously not the case. There's nothing wrong with bringing things up for discussion - for all I know, there's a lot of support for this idea, and the winds have shifted.

Really, all I'm asking is that you wait for more community input before going ahead. And respond to people who disagree with you, not just people who agree with you. How can we have a discussion if people stick to "agree" or "flee/ignore" settings? Civil disagreement is possible and encouraged on this site, and always will be.

You bring up a point that's been bothering me. by Anonymous PPCer on 2013-07-30 03:39:00 UTC Reply

I am choosing to remain Anonymous for this post, for which I hope I will be forgiven. I don't wish my words here to poison my interactions with PPCers outside this thread, as this may be somewhat inflammatory. Rest assured - I am not some random passing troll - I've been here several years, and authored a number of Missions. That said, I remain Anon.

From what I've seen, serious issues here at the PPC tend to get either swept under the rug and Not Talked About (Which does nothing but spawn passive-aggressive pissing matches) or just slammed down by one or two people. It seems like a small number of people come out and bang the hammer down, and everyone who disagrees gets shouted down. I don't like that. If this is truly a community of friends, there should never be an issue about which a civil conversation cannot be had.

My problem, I guess, is that there is nobody around here whose word is law. That's as it should be. But some people seem to think they're more equal than others, and that their opinion automatically matters more. This is not, and has never been, the case.

Sorry for the off-topic. That's just been eating at me for a while, and it's why I don't spend as much time as I used to on the Board, and at the PPC in general

My question is, why? by Neshomeh on 2013-07-29 18:22:00 UTC Reply

As Phobos pointed out, we already have our own wiki with articles about a great many of our characters, and there's already a TVT article about us that directs people to said wiki. What would the PPC gain from the page you're proposing that we don't already have on our own site?

Full disclosure: I was one of the people involved in the attempt to broaden our representation on TVT. I'm not a fan of their administration or their policies.

~Neshomeh
Given the history... by Phobos on 2013-07-29 15:44:00 UTC Reply

I would recommend not making the page. The PPC, as an organization, has not had a good relationship with TV Tropes. It is kind of a sore spot for some people.

Also, we have a perfectly good wiki already. In fact, you can read up on our experience with TVT on it.

-Phobos

Looking at the Wiki article... by Desdendelle on 2013-07-29 17:18:00 UTC Reply

It seems to me that part of the problem was when Tawaki and Laburnum were the main PPCers that edited the TvTropes page. However, Laburnum has pretty much faded out of the PPC (unless I'm missing something) and Tawaki, as far as I'm aware, isn't an active PPC writer any more, so perchance a cleanup of the page is in order, whether someone writes a Characters page or not. That said, I'm not sure why it's a bad idea, aside from it stepping on some people's toes (I remember some people being vehemently opposed to Tropers being PPCers and vice versa, but that's in the past, I hope).

The missing pieces by Phobos on 2013-07-29 17:49:00 UTC Reply

The problem I am talking about was not Tawaki and Laburnum's entries on TVT. Wanting to make the article a better reflection of the PPC, as a whole, was what started the event, but it wasn't the problem. The problem was really the result of that cleanup.

What happened was that a fairly large group of PPCers (mainly from the chat, I believe) got together to make the page more representative of the PPC as a whole. They added things, deleted things, and edited more things. TV Tropes did not like this. They reverted a lot of the edits and accused us of trying cover up our real image (the "whitewashing" in the article). Words were exchanged, someone got banned from TV Tropes (I don't know who) and it really just left a bad taste in peoples' mouths.

So, yes, a cleanup of the page is in order. However, it would probably not be in order if TV Tropes admins had just allowed us to clean it up the last time.

-Phobos, who is not fond of TVT Admins, but doesn't mind Tropers in general.

*smacks head into wall* by Voyd on 2013-07-29 16:13:00 UTC Reply

I am now sorry I said anything.

As a troper... by DemonFiren on 2013-07-29 16:59:00 UTC Reply

...I do not at all oppose you on your decision to write a Characters page, blatantly ignoring whatever issues TVTropes might have with the PPC and vice versa. I do, however, question whether or not it is at all possible to complete that task and which agents are considered worthy of being included (and whose toes we'd step on, then.)

Holy crap, someone likes my idea. by Voyd on 2013-07-29 17:43:00 UTC Reply

Yay! *confetti*

Anyway, I was thinking that the listed characters would be the flowers, the various emergency characters (such as the Mysterious Somebody), Lux, Makes-things, Jay, Acacia, and any agent who has appeared in more than five pieces of writing.

Ownership Issues by Storme Hawk on 2013-07-29 18:14:00 UTC Reply

Whilst the PPC page on Tvtropes did initially spark my interest in the PPC I'm probably one of those rare tropers who was already writing fanfcition by the time I found the page (and after I found it and the wiki I quickly started to tidy up my own writing which was on the edge of becoming badfic).

Ignoring that rambling my point is that whilst writing about those characters would be nice, it's considered polite and proper to ask those whom the characters belong to whether you can use their characters (unless you're using a disclaimer) and that's where I think you're more likely to run into a problem.

Hum. by Desdendelle on 2013-07-29 20:20:00 UTC Reply

I don't think Voyd would be using the characters, any more that Troping characters from, say, Lucky Star is considered using them. It's not like he's writing them in a story of his or anything.

I suppose... by Storme Hawk on 2013-07-29 20:54:00 UTC Reply

Also (a good point for it) is that if the majority of the PPC page on Tvtropes hasn't been written with the original series or the more mainline characters in mind (and seeing as more people are using Tvtropes as a way into the PPC) then by doing a characters page with the more mainline PPC Agents in it would allow any Tropers looking at coming into the PPC a chance to see what the majority of Agents etc. are based upon rather than two of the more 'outsider' Agents.
Also by adding more content to the page the admins of Tvtropes can hardly complain about it being 'whitewashed' can they? Because whoever's adding the information in is doing exactly that, whilst keeping the Tvtropes Admins happy because the main page isn't being messed around with so much.

Okay, hold up. by VixenMage on 2013-07-29 21:11:00 UTC Reply

I'd like to point out that, although there's obviously not much anyone can do to stop you, this is something that bears more discussion before someone leaps in to do it. One of the major things that came out of the debacle that Phobos mentioned above was, IIRC, the idea that as a community, we should talk about things before one or two people grabs the bit in their teeth and runs off to just do them. I'd really appreciate it if you could consider other viewpoints on this.

For example, there are Communal-ish characters, like the SO and the Marquis, or Makes-Things, who are up for people to drop into their stories without a lot of asking. But for the most part, PPC characters are held by their original authors, and used only with their original authors' consent. So to make a real TvT "PPC Characters" page that actually reflected the organisation, you'd have to do a whole lot of asking and discussing and explaining and a whole lot of reading, because if you're going to include a character, you'd darn well better have read the spin-offs they inhabit. (All of them would be preferable.) And there are people who, quite simply, do not want their characters on TvTropes.

One person, anyway. I just plain don't want my team on there, and someone just tossing Jof on alone, because they can, would seriously irritate me. So unless you are prepared to go on a long, long campaign of tracking down authors and asking their specific permission to use the characters they've come up with, I recommend you take a long moment to listen to the various voices of the people around. All of them, not just the ones agreeing with you.

If it works. by Storme Hawk on 2013-07-30 02:53:00 UTC Reply

I agree with you in the fact that whoever does this, if it ever does actually happen would have to ask a lot of people for permission to include their characters (and everything else that would come with it), if that got the go ahead and everything, then it would be a very good idea to implement it. However as you've said the amount of time to organize something like this would be huge and if something like this did happen it would be a big enough change that I think most of the community should/would have to agree to it before it went ahead.

My overall stance on this is if enough people can get behind the idea (this includes people with Agents and not just pure Boarders) then go for it, otherwise it'd be a waste.