Subject: Hm...
Author:
Posted on: 2008-08-17 04:38:00 UTC
Were you actually reading what I typed?
Just wondering.
Subject: Hm...
Author:
Posted on: 2008-08-17 04:38:00 UTC
Were you actually reading what I typed?
Just wondering.
I recently deleted some entries from the Unclaimed Badfic section of the Wiki because it wasn't brought up here. They're actually my particular stories, which can be found at:
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4300069/1/
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4390189/1/
I'd like to think that I carefully constructed the stories. I wrote all ~25,000 and ~30,000 respective words before publishing anything and did several proofreading passes by both myself and other people. I also paid careful attention to detail to avoid a lot of pitfalls and pretty specifically synthesized one key character as a parody of Mary Sue (as in... an anvil to the head blatant parody) while betraying the whole underlying mechanic that makes the character type offensive. I certainly didn't just type it all out after earing a scoop of sugar and post it as is.
However, I'm a good sport and I won't deny that the stories are, by and large, dull and uninteresting (if carefully written). Being brought up at the PPC Wiki gave me an idea for a particular story, though. What if instead of just another perfunctory assassination, the PPC as a whole has to deal with a particularly intelligent, self-aware, genre savvy, and very dangerous individual bent on destroying them? It would obviously end with the PPC's victory (status quo is god, after all), but for the story, I'll need some C-list fodder. Agents to be killed/injured/stranded in the middle of nowhere/brainwashed/turned into sharks/etc. It would be a several story deal and overlap with other fanfiction assignments. Anyone have any interest in this?
The PPC might have enough opponents.
The idea has come up before, too, though it doesn't appear to have been continued past the second chapter- Ashes to Glory, archived about half-way down here. I don't know… maybe it's not a project for one person. Might have potential as an RP, but I'm not much of a fan of the fodder idea. I understand you mean characters who aren't much liked any more by their creators, but… it seems off, to me. *shrugs* I'm not sure about this.
Before I say anything, I'm just going to point this out. This is my opinion. No one else's, this isn't Official, hell, let's say this really isn't even PPC related, yeah?
Let's just pretend this is me and you.
I'd like to know what made you think that you could delete some entries off of the wiki's badfic list since they weren't "brought up here". See, there's thing about a wiki. Anyone can add anything. And anyone can delete it, too. But the thing is, no one needs damn permission or needs to give notification to add something to it. So I don't see why you saw the need to give that reason. By and large, your reason for taking those off? Excuse. Bad excuse. To me, all that first sentence of yours says is "BAWWWW. SOMEONE HURT MY FEELINGS.". I'd have to say that it's probably bad manners for the author of whatever was posted up there to remove it his or herself, that should be something a third party does.
People can take a fic off that list if they think it doesn't belong there if they have a look. Some of those fics? They probably don't deserve to be up there. After all, a lot of those were probably added after a look at the summary and a cursory look at the the first chapter or so. Maybe even less.
If someone added it there because they have a grudge with you, well, that's between them and you. Leave the PPC out of it. Getting other parties involved in a two way arguement just leads to more problems. So stop that garbage NOW.
And okay, so you think your fic is okay. You think it's written well technically, but you're thinking it's boring. You wrote it, you completed it. FANTASTIC. Unfortunately, it's not really your opinion that matters if you put it online for others to read, is it? It's the readers that decide if a story is good or not, if they think the writing is good or not, and so forth. All the proofreading in the world is not going to change that. And putting down the word you think it's boring too? That's not how it works. You do your best to make a good story, and good stories are not 'dull and uninteresting'. And as the Trojanhorse said, parody Mary Sues are difficult. It's hard to carry a parody off properly no matter what. Parody and satire are dangerous beasts, and people can and will read them improperly and your 'parody' Sue is going to be just a Sue. They're going to take it at FACE VALUE.
And hip hip hurrah, you want to write a PPC emergency where the PPC has to deal with destruction coming from within or without by a person or persons that know how stories work and are intelligent. Shall I point you to Huinesoron's Reorganisation? Or the as of yet uncompleted Crashing Down? How about Tawaki's subplot that involves Big Brother? And on the subject of normal characters being turned into Mary Sues, there's Suedom. And this is the stuff that's on the top of my head, there's probably quite a bit more out there.
Also, C-List? There are no 'C-List' Agents. There are Agents still used by their creators. There are Agents that have officialy retired. There are Agents that are in that limbo of being unwritten since their creators left and might return, or not. Thinking of any character as being C-List isn't right, because you know something? This is a shared verse. What I might think of a C-List Agent is right at the top of someone else's A-List.
And what would happen if someone came back, wanting to write a mission with their old Agents, and got told, 'Oh, sorry, you weren't around anymore, so we figured it'd be okay to use your old Agent as a dramatic sacrifice basically since we didn't think you'd ever come back'.
Killing off someone's character is not cool unless you have permission from them and you're totally sure they'd be okay with it. Plenty of us have made characters purely for being 'Red Shirts'.
And you don't think any of us have thought about the 'oh, wait, won't my character be a Mary Sue' issue? I promise you, quite a few of us have. And the thing is, most of us succeeed at preventing our characters from being Mary Sues.
Want to know how?
Because the PPC is, first and foremost, just a humor thing. It's a shared universe, and it has its serious moments, but for the most part, the PPC is comedy. While the characters might not get into serious trouble or mess totally up, it's because there's only so far you can go before it is no longer Funny. Everyone asks themselves, how much humor can we get out of this happening to this character? How bad can my character screw up without getting hurt or waist deep in serious trouble?
And as to Mary Sues in the PPC? Some of them are ex-Mary Sues. And others, well, you saw the DIO page, didn't you?
I took it off because it was just a pathetic attempt at trolling by somebody that didn't bother to read them (hell, the person doesn't even participate in anything related to fanfiction at all and had to ask around to find places like this) and just wanted to get a rise out of me. I know all this because the person directly told me what they did, not out of guesswork. I mean, honestly... if every petty grudge that somebody holds involves doing everything they can to discredit them (including posting stuff they've written on this website)... this website would just be little more than a mirror for every single fanfiction website in existence. This website has better standards than that and I don't want to subject it to this irrelevant crap.
Also, if I were some asshole, I'd have just deleted the entries without saying a word (I wouldn't have bothered to post here, since I'm smarter than to call attention to what is most likely just a minor, unnoticed blip in the edit history). However, rather than acting like some thin-skinned egotist, I instead decided to take it in good humor and offer suggestions and material to maximize extracting the parody out of the stories. I'm being constructive in my whole intrusion, not destructive. I like the concept of the PPC and even though the circumstances behind this proposed idea is a bit... I don't know, crappy, I don't want to unjustly rob potential material because some troll involved this website.
Anyway, I wasn't asking for people's characters without their permission. I would not only want the full permission of the owners, but also for them to write their own actions and dialogue (even if they're ultimately railroaded into a certain conclusion... but they would know what that is going into it, regardless). I don't like the whole concept of making red shirts because honestly... they hold no impact (dramatic, comedic, or otherwise) and are just too easy to spot. "Agent Williams, fresh from training, gets sent to investigate a disappearance within a recently scorched continuity." Yeah, good luck getting any emotional involvement out of that. Audience tunes out and just waits for the inevitable to happen so they can absorb whatever forced plot detail comes out of it, all the while wishing for somebody more interesting to come to the forefront.
Anyway, I'll admit that I haven't fully read the works in question. I did, however, read the timeline, all the Emergencies, and most of the links within them. I saw a bit of a gap I offered to fill. Maybe it's just an issue with the way the website is written, but honestly... there doesn't seem to be any real chessmaster style character with a penchant for manipulating everybody and leaving a trail of irony behind. There are corrupt bureaucrats, enemy commanders, card carrying villains, and such, but nothing that really seemed like a subversive threat that worked based on manipulating all circumstances around them while setting up a whole lot of messages and imagery meant to dismay, discredit, and otherwise just destroy the morale of the organization (all the while leaving behind run-on sentences). Still, it's up to everybody if they would like to see this and I certainly don't want to go forward without at least about four other people contributing to it.
I apologize if anything I've posted seemed prudish (I certainly don't want to give off that sort of vibe). I'm certainly not saying I'm immune to this website and if somebody wants to use my stories for material, I'm all for it. Hell, here's a link to my profile:
http://www.fanfiction.net/u/1579216/EtherealMutation
Feel free to add whatever you want from it to the unclaimed badfic (provided that it's actually, well, usable... as mentioned, parodying parody generally negates the whole purpose and I certainly didn't just mash anything out in short order). I suggest the aptly named "Destroyers of Continuity" as a prime resource (although it, also, is a parody, it has such incredible corniness that could be extracted). Hell, feel free to add me as a target or whatever. I'd prefer that I be consulted with so that a certain amount of "realism" can be acheived, but so long as it isn't libelous (and my standards for "libel" are really, really, really high, so I doubt a comedic website would ever get anywhere close), I'm all for anything. In the end, it's all publicity anyway (I guess I shouldn't have said that... damnit, there goes my diabolical plan to draw in readers).
Were you actually reading what I typed?
Just wondering.
Yes, I read it... I made plenty of references to the post and don't know how much more clear I could have been. I don't know. I guess since even just responding to this two and a half sentence post in any measure is sort of making me look like a jackass, I may as well address parts of the earlier post that particularly bugged me:
"Excuse. Bad excuse. To me, all that first sentence of yours says is "BAWWWW. SOMEONE HURT MY FEELINGS.""
Except, as I mentioned, that isn't the reason I took it off in the first place (and the reason I took it off is neither an excuse by any measure nor about me, personally). If it was, why would I then willfully describe my work as crap (which, by the way, is still subjective just as how somebody calling themselves the greatest writer ever is obviously subjective, but I honestly do think that my concepts for the two stories just turned out to be crap in execution and ultimately not very funny), then go to great length offering to rip apart all of my own work (and, indeed, my own damn -persona-) if all this was about my "feelings being hurt"? Shouldn't I just edit it out and hope nobody notices if that's the case? Or, failing that intelligence check, write some scathing post decrying the website for its "unfair" treatment of me by proxy? Well, one interpretation (which I jokingly alluded to) is that I'm doing this for publicity (honestly... I'd rather be obscure than hated), but the real reason is because I am not Anne Rice, Tim Buckley, or David Gonterman and I have an actual sense of humor about myself and my creations. I don't treat anything I write as serious.
"If someone added it there because they have a grudge with you, well, that's between them and you. Leave the PPC out of it. Getting other parties involved in a two way arguement just leads to more problems. So stop that garbage NOW."
There is no addition to the argument. As I mentioned, I brought this up simply because I wanted to contribute. The other asshole of this "feud" (I can't adequately explain how retarded this person's motives were if I tried) just used the PPC website as little more than a tool to make a "point". Is that really a justifiable use of the website? I certainly hope not, lest it undermine the whole concept.
"Unfortunately, it's not really your opinion that matters if you put it online for others to read, is it?"
Of course it's not my opinion that ultimately matters. Two things, though. First, the person that person added the stories did it for all the wrong reasons (as mentioned in earlier posts and this one) and I'd rather not let other people get involved in this petty crap (you know, the thing that I'm being accused of here). Second:
"It's hard to carry a parody off properly no matter what. Parody and satire are dangerous beasts, and people can and will read them improperly and your 'parody' Sue is going to be just a Sue. They're going to take it at FACE VALUE."
I won't deny that parody is hard to pull off properly. While obviously, any character whatsoever can be interpreted as a Mary Sue (the term is pretty much just a dead horse that translates into "character I don't like" at this point, but I like to pretend it still means something specific). However, as I mentioned, using pretty much any real objective standard of Mary Sue (you know... a character that the author is obviously playing favorites with and bends the universe around) would not have the character come back as such. The PPC website, itself, would vindicate the character. I can argue that point forever. I'm not saying it's a good character (oh, no, not at all. I hate the C unmentionable). It's just not a Mary Sue by any real definition.
"Also, C-List? There are no 'C-List' Agents. There are Agents still used by their creators. There are Agents that have officialy retired. There are Agents that are in that limbo of being unwritten since their creators left and might return, or not. Thinking of any character as being C-List isn't right, because you know something? This is a shared verse. What I might think of a C-List Agent is right at the top of someone else's A-List."
I guess using the term "C-list" might seem offensive, but did I specifically call any character in particular C-list? No. Did I imply that there might exist C-list characters that people might be willing to part with? Yes, and that is because I seriously doubt any major project like this has managed to avoid having a casual writer grow distant from it. I already mentioned wanting full permission and full cooperation, not having asked for abandoned characters without the permission of their authors, etc. etc. in the other post.
Anyway, since I haven't yet read all the stories, I guess I'll just put the idea I had for a story on the backburner (unless enough people decide they do want to actually go through with it). I guess I'm thinking more in terms of a particular style of execution, actually, and am not properly communicating it. Also, the more I think about it, the less casualties I think I'd actually write due to the fact that death itself is just friggin' boring. Odds are, there would probably be all of two irreversible events (and one of them would be an accident). Regardless, I guess I shouldn't offer suggestions until I'm familiar with everything first.
I don't even see the negative of any of this. Technically competent, self-aware (if self-deprecating at times, easily prone to mediocre ideas, and sometimes retarded) writer that could have just killed off the entries without much of a fuss instead decides to offer entirely free content for the entire PPC 'verse? Without any conditions whatsoever? Hell, I'd even offer my really, really, REALLY crappy unpublished City of Heroes "fanfiction" for the chopping block if people wanted it. I'd rather not because I think that having not published it gives me the right to disavow it (it's not like I'm taking it away from anybody), but I offer it, nonetheless.
Anyway, if there's something you want specifically answered, feel free to mention it. Also, while I do my best to avoid letting any personally negative tones seep into my stuff, I might accidentally word something in a way that could be misinterpreted as such and for that, I apologize. Let me assure you that I have nothing against you (and why should I?). You might have completely missed a lot of the point and are using bad debate form, but you're otherwise rational and intelligent (even if it sort of feels like my posts were just casually skimmed over). If you weren't, I wouldn't have posted a big response and a second, largely redundant one with more clarification just because of a two and a half sentence wonder accusing me of missing the point. And please don't assume that I'm being negative in pointing this out personally. I'm just letting you know where I come from. Again, if you have any lingering questions, concerns, etc., I'm more than happy to address them and I hope I do not come across as some asshole for any of this. I would like to contribute in some measure to the website (provided I'm still welcome, anyway).
We don't really have 'C-list' or 'cannon fodder' Agents in the PPC ... kinda goes against the whole idea, y'know, since we Don't Leave A Man Behind, and the latest thing with the Mary Sue Factories ... mass produced is for the enemy, dude. And since people only create a few Agents, usually, and get attached to them, I sincerely doubt anyone will volunteer their characters. I certainly won't be.
I can't vouch for the quality of your stories as they aren't my fandom, but if they were on the page then someone at least thought them worthy of sporkage. It's my experience that parodying badfic only ends with worse badfic; perhaps try and steer clear of it? I don't doubt that you tried very hard, but a Mary Sue, even one developed carefully, is a Mary Sue, and you can probably understand why it's hard to differentiate between one done as an 'anvil to the head blatant parody' and one written by someone with too much sugar in their bellies.
Just saying, is all.
- Trojie
Parody can be of any quality (the term Mary Sue, itself, comes from a parody) and personally, I'd like to think that I made a (failed) parody of the generic Mary Sue type as opposed to something that really is a genuine character of the mold. She only -appears- to be a Mary Sue through virtue of being a (physically) attractive character with extensive sorcery powers that latches onto the main cast, but the universe and its characters already hate her, she's portrayed as being incredibly abrasive and irritating (to the point where she's actually the unaware villain), and she -loses- at every single major thing she attempts. I mean... come on. What can really be done here? "We're here to give you a mercy killing. Your crimes include attempted canon rape that failed due to the story already starting out that way, being a villain, and for just simply existing." It wouldn't make for a good PPC story in the standard mold. But what if one instead comes to the conclusion that a "wrongfully accused" character, carefully constructed by a self-aware author out of mix-and-match pieces (with a little something extra made of pure evil... or something equally cliche) would instead produce a self-aware, genre savvy character that gives the organization a run for its money due to all the standard operating procedure being largely useless on it? That has a lot more potential.
Anyway, when I say "C-list fodder", I'm really referring to characters that aren't cared about (any more). I guess the term is a bit obtuse (it actually refers to how in comics, "C-list" characters that publishers create and then largely abandon have a tendency to be brought back for dramatic deaths without seriously impacting the canon as a whole). I wouldn't say nobody would volunteer their characters for something like this (somebody had to volunteer the 19 characters in the Deceased Agents section). People often change over time and grow distant from their old characters (or, perhaps, the website itself). They might just want to give their character a fairly dramatic exit (or they just decide that they hate the character after all). Also, the deaths (and other twisted things) wouldn't violate the PPC standard operating procedure (if anything, the deaths would inspire the full wrath and fury of the organization, something that would be the whole driving point of the story). Certainly, the agents aren't all invincible, unerring, and completely in the right at all times. That would just by hypocritical of the whole premise ("We send Mary Sue to kill Mary Sue!"), although that would actually make pretty good material ("You strive to kill every Mary Sue there is, but fail to look within your own numbers?"). I ask for characters because I'd really like to be part of the community and for the story to actually feel like a part of it instead of just creating six or so Red Shirts.
Also, I really view the character as being somebody who would get more pleasure out of ironic punishments than just maniacally killing everybody, so it's not even like everybody that volunteers for the project would end up dead, either. For example, perhaps a character that is really, really, REALLY outspoken about their hatred of Mary Sues would end up getting brain-jacked, given a whole makeover, and forced to retain their consciousness as their bodies make them act like classical Mary Sues as the PPC unwittingly sends one of their own to kill them off (which could lead to whoever gets sent either rescuing them after they sense something wrong or finding out later that they killed one of their own agents and having to live with the consequences).
Regardless, as mentioned, I'd like this to be a joint effort if possible. After browsing the PPC Emergencies, there seems to be a gap this type of story could fill (not to mention that it would fit perfectly into the Catastrophe Theory). They've dealt with straightforward base invasions, fighting off the Borg, and major world infections... but somebody destroying them from the inside out? It would require quite a bit more in terms of planning, resources, and all-around adaptability that would test the organization and offer quite a bit of "character development", if you will.
By the way, I know specifically who added the stories in the first place and it certainly wasn't for anything involving the content (let's just say that the Final Fantasy XI endgame community as a whole is not very friendly and leave it at that). If somebody else (as in... somebody not doing it out of petty spite) deems them actually worthy of being on the list, I won't oppose it (although I'll most likely claim them myself just because I like the idea I've come up with).
which I stand by, because I've read so many poor fics (NOT including yours, cos I haven't read yours) that then claimed to be parodic that I have become suspicious of the whole idea. Which isn't to say that there aren't good ones out there.
As the the Emergency idea ... it sounds like it has potential. None of my Agents work in Mary Sues, but I'd certainly be interested to see how something like this would work. It could turn out quite interesting.
Of course, to write a PPC Spinoff, you still need Permission :) (a friendly reminder)
I think I have a character I can offer.
My Agents' second mission led them to rescue two uncanonical daughters of Aragorn and Arwen called Galae and Rana, who were crowbarred in to make the 'Sue look good and were barely mentioned again. On being brought back to HQ, the girls were renamed Galeya and Rina. Galeya is five and Rina is twelve.
They were placed in the HQ daycare centre to be rehabilitated into HQ life. Rina is nearly old enough to be an Agent in training, and probably will have already begun lessons on being an Agent. She's quite a gentle girl, though, so she'd probably be training for Infrastructure rather than Action Departments- possibly Finance or Personnel. Galeya is very close to her older sister, but also idolises the other Agents and will probably end up in an Action Department.
I offer that Rina be the Agent who is killed. It would probably upset a lot of people, as she isn't even old enough to be able to fight back and would evidently have been picked as an easy target. Not only that, but she'll have made a lot of friends in the daycare who will all be wanting her avenged... Marsha, for one, and you don't upset a hormonal teenaged Triceratops unless you really want to see a rampage. Rina's not a full-blown Agent or even much of a character at all, so her death wouldn't damage canon, but it'd hopefully rile people. At least three or four I can think of.
However...there are very few characters that aren't cared about, and many of those on the Deceased List were. Makes-Things, for example, was a beloved part of the PPC and the first ever non-Flower Agent. And as for someone destroying them from the inside out... have you read the Reorganisation? The Mysterious Somebody and the DIS were trying to bring down the PPC. Not physically, but certainly morally. I'm curious to see how this would work, but perhaps holding off till a few more of the older Boarders have had their say.